Just Caught A Teacher With A Fake Degree

[Scott]

I was alerted by another staff member who questioned the credibility of someone's degree. They were having some problems between themselves, but I decided it was probably a good thing to check the degree.

The employee has been employed for about 5 years and came from another school. This was prior to the big push by MOE and Immigration.

The check determined that no one by that name or birthdate graduated from the school on the date listed on the degree. The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged. What do you think? What other action, if any is warranted?

[wolfmanjack]

In a perfect world he should be dismissed. However we are in thailand where there is a shortage of good english teachers. Can I assume since he has been employed by your school for 5 years that he is a good teacher ? and that he has caused no problems ? the only reason for checking his credentials was the fact that another employee was having problems with him ?

On the other side of the coin you have to consider what ramifications are there for keeping him? Can the thai gov cause problems for the school because of him ?

[Etrigan]

5 years and no problems? Questionable circumstances regarding how this matter came to light.

If the teacher is to stay then I think you should strongly recommend that this teacher enrol with the Open University, or any other distance degree program, right now, and start getting qualified!

[helicoptor]

turn a blind eye

[Prakanong]

turn a blind eye

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

[spectrum]

The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged.

Understandably, though it's rather unfortunate for this employee that the tables have suddenly turned / goal posts shifted / screws tightened .

I'd have a wee private chat with the employee before deciding to take any further action. What you hear might influence your thoughts.

[bungalowbill]

turn a blind eye

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

You can hardly compare teaching ESL and being a DR. The person with the fake degree is wrong, however it seems to me that the school probably knew it was fake five years ago and didn't care. If he's been there five years the staff and students must like him...he should be allowed to stay and like a previous poster said get enrolled in some course to get a BA (if that is what the school requires). Does he have a CELTA or TEFL? By the way please fire that stupid snitch... He will cause more problems than your degree-less teacher...thanks..BB

BB

Edited May 28, 2007 by bungalowbill

[eek]

Is he/she a good teacher? If so, then the OU idea sounds Iike a good one. PersonaIIy I get a IittIe ticked off that I worked my butt off for 4 years getting a degree (with 2 part time jobs on the go), just for someone to come aIong with a fake certificate and take a job from a quaIified person. Then again, a degree doesnt necessariIy make for a good teacher, so if you have a good one on your hands then I suggest asking them to get quaIified, or, if they are worth it, i guess turn a bIind eye. :S

Tough caII.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Maestro
Font selction code removed for better readability.

[helicoptor]

turn a blind eye

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

We're talking about teaching not medicine, it it were a fake doctor I would give a different answer.

By all means check him out to make sure he isn't in the GG fan club, but 5 years teaching has got to count for something, hasn't it?

How many farang teachers in Isaan in the same boat as the OPs subject?

[Scott]

Many thanks for what you've said so far. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be in the original post. He will be discharged. The difficulty is that his degree is a forgery and now it's known. The administration was wondering if the police should be notified.

The school DID NOT know that he had a fake degree and the school wouldn't hire anyone with a fake degree. If we knew it, why would check it?

He is a fair teacher--good in some ways, not so good in others. He is not the brightest person and that's one of his problems that led to him being "snitched" on. I very much doubt that he would be able to get a 4 year degree at least not easily. But I will suggest it to him for his future work.

He's a good person and I don't want to see anything worse happen to him. Unfortunately, he's going to get paid then his visa is going to be canceled and I assume he will have to leave the country.

[helicoptor]

Dont you just love a happy ending?

[bungalowbill]

Many thanks for what you've said so far. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be in the original post. He will be discharged. The difficulty is that his degree is a forgery and now it's known. The administration was wondering if the police should be notified.

The school DID NOT know that he had a fake degree and the school wouldn't hire anyone with a fake degree. If we knew it, why would check it?

He is a fair teacher--good in some ways, not so good in others. He is not the brightest person and that's one of his problems that led to him being "snitched" on. I very much doubt that he would be able to get a 4 year degree at least not easily. But I will suggest it to him for his future work.

He's a good person and I don't want to see anything worse happen to him. Unfortunately, he's going to get paid then his visa is going to be canceled and I assume he will have to leave the country.

Exactly my point...the school didn't know because they didn't check it and verify...correct? I guess now you have to fire him and this should be a lesson to all perspective teachers...Schools will hire you with a fake degree because they want a farang in the classroom. However if you have a dissagreement with another teacher they will be forced to check your degree and you will be reported to the police if it's bogus. I am being sarcastic...but true or not? bottom line is always be truthful..schools will probably still hire you when your honest and tell them your true qualifications if any. however you probably will not get a work permit unless you have at least a BA.

[Petch01]

He's a good person and I don't want to see anything worse happen to him. Unfortunately, he's going to get paid then his visa is going to be canceled and I assume he will have to leave the country.

Fair enough. Talk to him and explain it all. Don't notify the authorities. Cancel his work permit. With that he must go to Immigration to cancel his visa extension (if he has one). He will get a 7 days extension and can make up his mind what his future should be.

It's all wrong but don't bring him to jail.

Petch01

[bungalowbill]

He's a good person and I don't want to see anything worse happen to him. Unfortunately, he's going to get paid then his visa is going to be canceled and I assume he will have to leave the country.

Fair enough. Talk to him and explain it all. Don't notify the authorities. Cancel his work permit. With that he must go to Immigration to cancel his visa extension (if he has one). He will get a 7 days extension and can make up his mind what his future should be.

It's all wrong but don't bring him to jail.

Petch01

I agree 100%....the fault is 50-50, the teacher and the school for not checking the degree in the first place. He worked there five years!!!!!

[Scott]

The degree wasn't checked because he came from another school and already had a teacher's license. Now, that said, at that time, we didn't routinely check a degree anyway. It wasn't a requirement and the presumption, for the most part, was that people were honest.

People were occasionally checked because it seemed clear that they weren't what they presented themselves as. And sometimes these folks checked out as OK.

On more than one occasion people have turned in fake Master's Degrees. It was flagged and they were confronted. In those instances they had a legitimate Bachelor's Degree and they were accepted based on that. The Master's wasn't filed with the MOE. etc.

I am sorry that some people see the school as being complicit in this. Most schools, ourselves included, don't have the manpower to be "investigators". When I interview people and they present documents my assumption is that they are legitimate. If they come with a valid work permit and teacher's license then I presume the previous school has checked them out.

The same is true with the police clearances. We get folks who submit a police clearance from the last place (country) they worked and it's accepted by the MOE. I am not at this point going through their passport thoroughly to find everywhere they've been and writing to the police in those different countries.

By and large, most people are basically honest. The main thing you see is a bit of embellishment.

[colino]

Iwouldnt get involed, stay out of it and let the school decide what to do ,

[bungalowbill]

The degree wasn't checked because he came from another school and already had a teacher's license. Now, that said, at that time, we didn't routinely check a degree anyway. It wasn't a requirement and the presumption, for the most part, was that people were honest.

People were occasionally checked because it seemed clear that they weren't what they presented themselves as. And sometimes these folks checked out as OK.

On more than one occasion people have turned in fake Master's Degrees. It was flagged and they were confronted. In those instances they had a legitimate Bachelor's Degree and they were accepted based on that. The Master's wasn't filed with the MOE. etc.

I am sorry that some people see the school as being complicit in this. Most schools, ourselves included, don't have the manpower to be "investigators". When I interview people and they present documents my assumption is that they are legitimate. If they come with a valid work permit and teacher's license then I presume the previous school has checked them out.

The same is true with the police clearances. We get folks who submit a police clearance from the last place (country) they worked and it's accepted by the MOE. I am not at this point going through their passport thoroughly to find everywhere they've been and writing to the police in those different countries.

By and large, most people are basically honest. The main thing you see is a bit of embellishment.

What your saying makes sense.. he was bucking the system for years and he finally got caught. If you don't report him, he just goes to another school..but in his case is that so bad? ... he was good enough to work at your school for five years...anyway wouldn't want to be in your shoes to make the decision. Good luck to both of you.

[Scott]

Thanks. As far as teaching legitimately, he won't really be able to do that because you need to have a degree, which he doesn't have. If he sends in a fake at this point in time, the verification won't come back again. So, once he's sacked, I am afraid he will be out of luck for teaching.

[jackmuu]

Some double standards here, we are forever hearing people bleat as to how many scams and rip off's there are in Thailand, but when a farang does it?

The man is a fraud, a liar and a cheat. I wouldn't want such a man to have anything to do with the education of my children. People who lie on their CV's are quite pathetic. If I was a qualified teacher I would be pretty annoyed that I had spent time and money to get a degree and some cheat lied his way in and was doing the same job for the same pay.

[eek]

What happens to teachers with a fake degree if they are reported?

[Juzrelax]

Would you turn a blind eye to a Dr with a fake degree treating you?

Why accept a fraud?

That's a load of Bull***t. I don't want to start another debate, but how can some moron fresh out of uni with a arts degree be a better teacher than an individual that's been teaching for five years. If the system wants to get serious about degrees they should only exept people with teaching or teaching associated degrees.

Why should a teacher be made to suffer because he had a disagreement with someone else. Consider how your decition will effect the teacher in question & the school overall, weigh up the 'for' and 'against' columns and there is your answer.

[Ijustwannateach]

There are multiple issues to address here.

Scott, now that the cat is out of the bag (since I assume you have informed another person of the situation) there's no choice. If he is illegal he has to go, otherwise you and anyone else who knows become accessories and accomplices to his illegal employment at your school. Since the MOE's latest statements indicated they were giving the school responsibility for checking the degree, they could impose quite a stiff penalty on you. I would suggest not informing anyone else of the situation and make sure those you have told keep mum, too.

I agree with the previous poster who suggested that you need to have a talk with this person about the situation. It's possible you've overlooked something or have made a mistake in some way. You have to be *sure* he is illegal before making any decisions. But it would help if you had your decisions in mind before you have the conversation with him.

If you have made some sort of error and he is truly legal, I would apologise to him for the suspicion. I would also inform the person who encouraged you to check his degree that they may work until the end of term, at which point their services will no longer be required. That person is clearly not much of a team player and as a previous poster said, you will only have more trouble from him if you keep him.

If it turns out he is illegal, I would offer him the opportunity to work until the end of term and then seek other employment. Remember, *you* are not the one who is cutting him off from teaching in Thailand- he did that himself by committing fraud. There are still plenty of degree-less teachers working under their present jobs and work permits who have been "grandfathered in" from the older, more tolerant system (it remains to be seen if new teachers who are degreeless can get work anywhere except the conversation schools). If he'd been honest and sought one of those jobs, he would be ok right now (albeit possibly not working at your school). Your problem is the school's position and reputation, not his. Offering him the opportunity to remain until end of term covers you for hiring purposes, and also makes a statement to those who know (who should remain a small group) that you take the matter seriously, but are not just throwing this guy- who has apparently made an acceptable contribution for 5 years!- out in the cold.

THEN, I would still inform the person who encouraged you to check his degree that they may work until the end of term. This person is not a team player and needs to go. Staff members should be discouraged from playing games with each other's livelihoods, no matter what their personal disagreements, and a "witch-hunt" atmosphere is the last thing that you want. Make it clear that BOTH fraud AND inability to get along with co-workers will not be tolerated.

I had the impression from your past posts that you are somewhat responsible for HR at your school, and since you are the one who went out of your way to confirm the degree you are absolutely responsible for any decisions made as a result of that check. Therefore I don't think, as other posters have suggested, that you can simply sit this one out and let others make the decisions- that would be highly irresponsible.

Good luck. These types of decisions are the worst ones to have to make, but that's why they call it management.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S. just to emphasise- the problem with the teacher here was not necessarily the presence or absence of his degree at the time of hiring [some teachers work legally without them], but his LYING about the degree and submitting false paperwork to the school and the government.

[glaitong]

5 years good work? Let him stay on and forget it. Hard to find good employees. Lots of degrees out there, but they are not always ideal for the job.

[TerryLH]

"What happens to teachers with a fake degree if they are reported?"

I think two teachers recently got out of jail after spending several months incarcerated for this.

[lomatopo]

The check determined that no one by that name or birthdate graduated from the school on the date listed on the degree. The Director of the school has indicated that he should be discharged. What do you think? What other action, if any is warranted?

I am surprised that the educational institution gave you, I'm assuming it was you who made the "check", this information. Typically they do not offer this information to third-parties. You should ask for a copy of the degree, a certified transcript and a certification letter.

As you say the Director of the school has made the decision to terminate. Any further action is really not up to you, unless you are tasked with some sort of legal enforcement responsibilities.

Here's hoping all the remaining teachers will pick up the extra load as a result of this termination.

[bluebear]

What happens to teachers with a fake degree if they are reported?

1) nothing

2) the contract isnt renewed

3) they are asked to "leave" unofficially

4) they are fired

5) they are fired and threatened with arrest

6) they are fired and threatened with arrest, deportation etc

7) they are fired and threatened with arrest, deportation etc and the police notified

8) they are fired and threatened with arrest, deportation etc and the police notified and actually arrested

add in witholding pay/bonuses etc to any or all of the above.

pick any of the above depending on how well the teacher gets on the with school / how desperate the school is for teachers / where the school is / if there are any side issues going on / is there is a new crackdown from a Ministry etc etc.

[lannarebirth]

I think if I were the administer charged with dealing with this problem, i would give the teacher the opportunity to resign. Perhaps have a talk with him one day and let him know that he will be discharged on the following day (with whatever legal baggage that carries with it), or he can establish to your satisfaction he does indeed hold a degree. or he can resign.

[garro]

If a person is prepared to lie about having a degree, what else are they lying about?

I would not like to have a dishonest person teaching my kids nor would I like one as a colleague?

[Scott]

Thanks folks, lots of really good input. IJWT, a special thanks to you.

The very basic problem here is the lying about the degree. It has little to do with his classroom performance which is OK. We have other teacher's who do not have degrees, but were hired before the new regulations and have taught for quite a while. They have their various diplomas and certificates, which are legitimate and they were licensed and granted WP's based on them. So the problem is lying. This is not about degree vs. non-degree. It's about fraud and forgery.

The employee who "snitched" on him, didn't exactly snitch. He made a valid and in good faith complaint about some of the guys behavior and classroom "antics". In the process he questioned whether this person was capable of actually getting a degree. I might add that before making a complaint to me, he talked directly with the teacher. He also informed the teacher that he was going to lodge a complaint with me. The situation between the two was diffused but remains a little tense.

I will talk to the "accused" and explain the situation. Under no circumstances will I make it public the reason for his leaving. He is free to give whatever excuse to his colleagues that he wishes to give (within reason).

As far as checking the degrees are concerned, this is usually a matter of public record. If you write to the school, they will tell you whether someone with that name graduated with that degree from their school. Getting a transcript of their grades requires consent.

I am hoping to give him enough time on his visa so that he isn't forced to leave the country immediately etc. I am hoping he can sort something out for himself.