Electric guitar maintenance and setup - Who can you recommend?

[CALSinCM]

I bought an electric guitar online.  Initially it sounded Ok (but what do I know as I'm a beginner and learning?).
One of the thing I noticed though early on is that my fretted stings were significantly #sharp up and down the fretboard, even at the 12th fret.  I've used multiple tuners and now have a headstock tuner as well and they all show the same.  ##Fretted## notes are sharp.  Open strings are spot on..  I can hear it by ear now too.

I talked to a guy who I'm taking lessons from online (American overseas) and he (and others) have said it's an intonation issue and have someone who knows what they are doing check the guitar adjustment.

So I just did that.  Went to a guitar shop in Chiang Mai, and asked them to restring the guitar and make sure everything was set up correctly.  I specifically mentioned "intonation."   Picked it up today.  The first thing I noticed is that I now have fret-buzz on the fretted E 6 string.  I checked the fretted strings and I'm still #sharp on the fretted notes.  I played it if front of the guy, the fret-buzz is obvious and he says, "Normal." 
Full-Stop!  Ok.  Let me have my guitar.  Smile. Pay. Leave. 

So I'd like a find someone in Chiang Mai who can setup and perform maintenance on a electric guitar, preferably someone who can speak English and is willing to teach me the setup (as I'm a beginner who would like to learn) so I can do it myself.  "Tamada" and "pokatee" for some Thais is perhaps different than for their farang customers. 
Fret buzz is not normal. 
Fretted strings that sound sharp have intonation issues and is not normal. 

I'd like to play (and learn) on a guitar that is correctly setup and maintained.  I'm looking for recommendations for someone who can correctly set up the electric guitar - it's a bonus if that person can teach me to do it myself. 
Thanks.

 

[KannikaP]

Shame I am in Phitsanulok. I know about these things.

 

There are many videos on You Tube explaining how to sort it.

Edited August 20, 2021 by KannikaP

[tonray]

First up: What kind of guitar is it ? What type of bridge ?

 

Intonation typically refers to getting the proper note (neither sharp or flat) when you fret at the 12 fret because the scale repeats at the 12th. So the unfretted strings will be (standard tuning) EADGBE so at the 12th fret you should allso be getting EADGBE.

 

The three things to consider: #1) The nut...first place to start...slots must not be too deep or shallow for gauge of string

                                               #2) The bridge...once the nut is properly adjusted then the bridge should be raised or lowered and individual saddles adjusted for desired action

                                               #3) After the above then you must check for bow in the neck which can be adjusted via turning the truss rod (nut) clockwise or counter clockwise depending on degree of bow or underbow desired.

 

 After all 3 above complete....check action for dersired height of strings above the frets. Some like like it very low some higher...personal preference dictates here.

 

I'm not expecting you to be able to accomplish all this of course...but when you take it to someone...these are the things they should be addressing.

 

 

[KannikaP]

19 minutes ago, tonray said:

First up: What kind of guitar is it ? What type of bridge ?

 

Intonation typically refers to getting the proper note (neither sharp or flat) when you fret at the 12 fret because the scale repeats at the 12th. So the unfretted strings will be (standard tuning) EADGBE so at the 12th fret you should allso be getting EADGBE.

 

The three things to consider: #1) The nut...first place to start...slots must not be too deep or shallow for gauge of string

                                               #2) The bridge...once the nut is properly adjusted then the bridge should be raised or lowered and individual saddles adjusted for desired action

                                               #3) After the above then you must check for bow in the neck which can be adjusted via turning the truss rod (nut) clockwise or counter clockwise depending on degree of bow or underbow desired.

 

 After all 3 above complete....check action for dersired height of strings above the frets. Some like like it very low some higher...personal preference dictates here.

 

I'm not expecting you to be able to accomplish all this of course...but when you take it to someone...these are the things they should be addressing.

 

 

Check the angle of the neck to the body. It should be zero, ie the frets parallel to the body. If not, you will never get a good action.

This can be rectified by shimming the neck if it is a Fender style removeable neck, if fixed like a Gibson....bin it.

I would suggest getting the neck as straight as possible via the truss rod FIRST, with a very slight bow with tuned up strings. 

Then the bridge intonation and action simultaneously as one affects the other..

Obviously look at the nut, which only influences OPEN strings but if the slots are not correct, you will not get antwhere.

All these things are very interacive though.

Dressing (filing) the frets would be the final process. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by KannikaP

[Shoeless Joe]

You don't say which guitar shop you used originally, but 2 that I can recommend are Maximum Sound in Changklan road (opposite Chiang Mai Land) and / or Green Music at Chiang Mai Gate. You can Google them for directions etc.
But you really don't need to go to a guitar shop to set up your guitar correctly and doing it yourself (even as a beginner) is relatively simple. The attached Youtube video explains everything in easy-to-understand language.
You really don't need to go to a guitar shop to set up your guitar correctly and doing it yourself (even as a beginner) is relatively simple.

Good luck

Joe

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Shoeless Joe

[CALSinCM]

9 minutes ago, tonray said:

First up: What kind of guitar is it ? What type of bridge ?

 

Intonation typically refers to getting the proper note (neither sharp or flat) when you fret at the 12 fret because the scale repeats at the 12th. So the unfretted strings will be (standard tuning) EADGBE so at the 12th fret you should allso be getting EADGBE.

 

The three things to consider: #1) The nut...first place to start...slots must not be too deep or shallow for gauge of string

                                               #2) The bridge...once the nut is properly adjusted then the bridge should be raised or lowered and individual saddles adjusted for desired action

                                               #3) After the above then you must check for bow in the neck which can be adjusted via turning the truss rod (nut) clockwise or counter clockwise depending on degree of bow or underbow desired.

 

 After all 3 above complete....check action for dersired height of strings above the frets. Some like like it very low some higher...personal preference dictates here.

 

I'm not expecting you to be able to accomplish all this of course...but when you take it to someone...these are the things they should be addressing.

 

 

Which is why I want someone to walk me though it.   Thanks much for the talking points.  A big problem is the language barrier.  I was dealing with Thais who's English skills are about a good as my Thai skills, although my GF was there too.  I felt between us all we could communicate. 
Twang (fret-buzz).  "Oh, that's normal!"  So maybe we can't communicate because to communicate could mean a loss of face..  I'm thinking they didn't want to talk with the farang because it's too difficult.

Epiphone Les Paul.

[blackprince]

The problem is with the saddle adjustments (ie the things on the bridge that the strings pass over between the bridge pickup and the string holder). You need to increase the string length (ie the distance between the nut and the bridge) by adjusting the saddle screws.

Usually this would be clockwise, though I don't know the specific configuration of the Epiphone Les Paul, so it could be anti-clockwise on that guitar, though I doubt it.

A few further points:

Open strings can always be tuned to the correct pitch. 

If you as a beginner can hear the difference with your ears (rather than relying on an electronic tuner) then I'd say you have pretty good ears.

Epiphone make very good clones, enjoy.

[PadPrikKhing]

I have an Epiphone SG. It was only like $200 new, and when I got it, it needed a slight fret job (filing down a few frets that were sticking up too much I guess), but once I got that, the action was fantastic. With that, combined with adjusting intonation, it became as good as any Gibson SG I've ever owned or encountered.

 

Yours probably needs the fret job as well, since I suspect that it's a common deficiency they have coming out of the factory. Here in California it cost me as much as the guitar did, but there in Thailand I'm sure it won't be nearly as expensive. Just be sure they know what they're doing. My fret job was done by a regionally famous luthier and guitar tech to rock stars, who was pretty full of himself, hence the high price.

[stament]

@CALSinCMPM me if you still need help.  I know a Thai friend who speaks good English and would be able to help at a very reasonable price.

[CALSinCM]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:37 PM, KannikaP said:

Shame I am in Phitsanulok. I know about these things.

 

There are many videos on You Tube explaining how to sort it.

@KannikaPI've adjusted the saddles so intonation is correct on the 12th fret.
However here's where it gets flaky.
Fretted notes on frets 1 though 7 are distinctly sharp according to both my headstock tuner and my ears.  The sharpest notes are on the fretted 1st fret and as I work up the neck (fret 1 to 7) the notes become less sharp.  From frets 7 to 12 things appear in tune.
I've done some reading an a lot of what I've read entails adjustments to the nut or the frets themselves. It's an odd problem but not uncommon from reading about these issues on the Internet.
I'm not planning to put much money into any repair.  It's my first electric, for all I know it's a knock-off, and if it sounds slightly off on the upper frets I can live with it.  What I'm actually learning with this Epiphone Les Paul is - what do I really want to understand when I buy my next guitar.  With the next one if I can't get it setup correctly I won't buy it.  That was the downside of buying my first guitar online.  I was flying blind.  Now I'm not.  The other issue with the Epi LP is neck dive.  The is no real 'horn' on the guitar and the upper strap button sits at the 16th fret.  The guitar always feels as its pulling against that strap button and I can't get comfortable in the standing position. And a can see as a lot of guitars with an upper horn have the upper strap button at the 12th fret. Which makes sense as I can see that would eliminate the pull.  That will be something else I'll be looking at in a new guitar.  Perhaps after a full year of playing when my technique improves I will probably look for a better axe. 
In the meanwhile if the intonation problem is a simple fix cool.  If not then I can still learn on it the way it's set up.  Still looking for an English speaker in Chiang Mai who can check out the setup. 
If you have any insight on the intonation issue on the upper frets let me know.  ????

[northerner]

I just had an Epiphone bass set up. The guy spoke good English, knew what he was doing, and has a small workshop in his house near Rimping/Iron Bridge. Find him on Facebook as Music Factory by Tai.

Set up plus fixing the jack - 400b. Took about an hour.

[blackprince]

"I've adjusted the saddles so intonation is correct on the 12th fret.
However here's where it gets flaky.
Fretted notes on frets 1 though 7 are distinctly sharp according to both my headstock tuner and my ears."

 

If the intonation is correct at the 12th fret, then assuming you have a playable action (action = string height off the fretboard) it's beyond the laws of physics that the intonation should be incorrect on frets 1-11 unless the frets have been put in the wrong place, which is extremely-unlikely (actually impossible) on a machine-tooled Epiphone clone.

 

If there is a pronounced bow in the neck (a concave neck) it could result in sharps especially around the halfway mark - eg 5th 6th 7th frets. But this would only result in very small intonation issues, not perceptible to most ears. But again a pronounced bow is unlikely in a factory Epiphone. If there is a bow, it can be easily remedied by tightening the truss-rod, which you can access under the small plate on the headstock above the nut. If you chose to do this, take it easy = 1/8th turns. I can't remember whether clockwise or anticlockwise tightens it. Anyone can do this - you don't need any training, and I assume the guitar was sold with the relevant allen key.

Regarding action, an electric guitar is usually set up with an action of 2mm or less at the 12th fret (measured as the distance from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string).

 

The only other explanation is that the strings are ultra light and you are unintentionally bending the strings through heavy inexperienced fingering, thus resulting in sharps. This is not as far-fetched as it might sound believe me! I'd try heavier strings before you start playing around with the truss-rod. Guitars are often supplied from the factory with ridiculously light strings which could result in intonation problems under inexperienced fingers.

 

[KannikaP]

14 minutes ago, blackprince said:

"I've adjusted the saddles so intonation is correct on the 12th fret.
However here's where it gets flaky.
Fretted notes on frets 1 though 7 are distinctly sharp according to both my headstock tuner and my ears."

 

If the intonation is correct at the 12th fret, then assuming you have a playable action (action = string height off the fretboard) it's beyond the laws of physics that the intonation should be incorrect on frets 1-11 unless the frets have been put in the wrong place, which is extremely-unlikely (actually impossible) on a machine-tooled Epiphone clone.

 

If there is a pronounced bow in the neck (a concave neck) it could result in sharps especially around the halfway mark - eg 5th 6th 7th frets. But this would only result in very small intonation issues, not perceptible to most ears. But again a pronounced bow is unlikely in a factory Epiphone. If there is a bow, it can be easily remedied by tightening the truss-rod, which you can access under the small plate on the headstock above the nut. If you chose to do this, take it easy = 1/8th turns. I can't remember whether clockwise or anticlockwise tightens it. Anyone can do this - you don't need any training, and I assume the guitar was sold with the relevant allen key.

Regarding action, an electric guitar is usually set up with an action of 2mm or less at the 12th fret (measured as the distance from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string).

 

The only other explanation is that the strings are ultra light and you are unintentionally bending the strings through heavy inexperienced fingering, thus resulting in sharps. This is not as far-fetched as it might sound believe me! I'd try heavier strings before you start playing around with the truss-rod. Guitars are often supplied from the factory with ridiculously light strings which could result in intonation problems under inexperienced fingers.

 

Exactly as I would have said. Thanks.

[Denim]

A lot of online shops mention in their blurb ' free set up ' 

 

I have found this to mean little in reality and have had to set up my guitars myself. Unless you can find somebody who really knows their stuff it can often be better to do it yourself using youtube tuition videos. Everything is covered.

 

With my Telecaster I had to learn new things to get smooth action and accurate intonation. Truss rod adjustment was something I had been frightened to attempt before as was neck removal and shimming but by going slow I got there in the end and learnt a lot on the way.

 

There is one other problem I have encountered here. Fake brand strings. The packets they come in are nigh on perfect but sometimes the strings are obviously not the real deal. Again, on youtube there are many videos covering fake strings. I bought some Elixers on line that are supposed to be coated strings to stop sweat and grease from getting through the windings thereby making them last longer in this moist climate. When they arrived .................no coating. I then went to Bangkok to buy in person so that I could open the packets and check for coating.  Found some that were coated with ' something ' but the coating flaked quickly so I guess even those were fakes.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Denim

[KannikaP]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:03 PM, Shoeless Joe said:

You don't say which guitar shop you used originally, but 2 that I can recommend are Maximum Sound in Changklan road (opposite Chiang Mai Land) and / or Green Music at Chiang Mai Gate. You can Google them for directions etc.
But you really don't need to go to a guitar shop to set up your guitar correctly and doing it yourself (even as a beginner) is relatively simple. The attached Youtube video explains everything in easy-to-understand language.
You really don't need to go to a guitar shop to set up your guitar correctly and doing it yourself (even as a beginner) is relatively simple.

Good luck

Joe

 

This guy talks about the nut, first of all doing the truss rod. 

In reality, the nut only affects OPEN strings. Once you fret a string, that is where it's 'end' is, not at the nut.

[blackprince]

A very high nut could create intonation problems, especially on the lower frets, but again not usually perceptible to most ears.

It's easy to check whether the nut is too high or not: if you can finger the strings at the first fret (ie without pain!)  then the nut's not too high  (at least not so high that you'd get intonation problems).

[CALSinCM]

46 minutes ago, blackprince said:

If the intonation is correct at the 12th fret, then assuming you have a playable action (action = string height off the fretboard) it's beyond the laws of physics that the intonation should be incorrect on frets 1-11 unless the frets have been put in the wrong place

And yet according to both my ears and my headstock tuner - here I am defying the Laws of Physics.  Which is why I'm at a loss. 

So I'll keep looking for someone with the tools and experience to check it out.  At this point I'd say it's beyond my ability to fix.  Thanks for the input though.  Appreciated.

[blackprince]

"And yet according to both my ears and my headstock tuner - here I am defying the Laws of Physics.  Which is why I'm at a loss. 

So I'll keep looking for someone with the tools and experience to check it out.  At this point I'd say it's beyond my ability to fix.  Thanks for the input though.  Appreciated."

 

Well I've got 50 years experience of this ???? I'm fairly sure you won't find anyone with more locally or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Anyway I'm glad you took my advice on sorting the saddles out.

 

I'll just reiterate:

if the intonation is correct at the 12th fret (which it is now because you took my first advice),

and if the frets are in the correct position (which they will be in a factory machined Epiphone),

and if the neck doesn't have a very significant bow (which you can check by looking at eye-level along the neck from the bridge to the nut,

and if the nut isn't excessively high,

then the laws of physics dictate that the problem is in your fingers.

 

[CALSinCM]

12 hours ago, northerner said:

I just had an Epiphone bass set up. The guy spoke good English, knew what he was doing, and has a small workshop in his house near Rimping/Iron Bridge. Find him on Facebook as Music Factory by Tai.

Set up plus fixing the jack - 400b. Took about an hour.

@northernerI called him and he'll check it out tomorrow.  Seems this guy is actually a luthier.  Thanks much!

[blackprince]

@northerner thanks for the tip about Music Factory Tai, I've been looking for some time for someone who can work on archtop electronics, and he's just confirmed he can

@CALSinCM I'd be interested in hearing what Tai (I guess that's his name) says about your intonation problem.

 

cheers

[blackprince]

Just finished lunch, which was interrupted by ruminations on your intonation problems (how sad is that!). 

 

As I've already indicated, a guitar that's intoned correctly with open strings and at the 12th fret (which yours now is) cannot have intonation problems on frets 1-11, specifically sharp problems on frets 1-7 unless there is a problem with (1) frets being in the wrong position (impossible with modern factory produced electric guitars) or (2)  a very high nut (which you'd notice if the first fret was painful in fingering).

 

It seems that the shop sold you a chromatic tuner (ie one that can identify any note, completely unnecessary for the guitar), rather than the more traditional guitar tuner EADGBE.  It's also possible that the shop sold you a tuner for an acoustic guitar, which works on vibrations, rather than input.

 

It's possible that (1) your chromatic tuner is showing small discrepancies that human ears wouldn't notice (you could confirm this or not by letting us know how far sharp your tuner thinks your guitar is for any given fret/string) or it's possible that (2) you're using a tuner designed for an acoustic guitar on an electric guitar. In both cases I'm assuming that your eyes (on the tuner) may be deceiving your ears.

 

Intonation problems are end-user problems unless you've got a seriously screwed up neck, which I doubt.

 

Anyway let us know what Tai says.

[ArcticFox]

24 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Anyway let us know what Tai says.

I will give ya'll an update after a speak with him tomorrow.  ????

[KannikaP]

37 minutes ago, blackprince said:

It seems that the shop sold you a chromatic tuner (ie one that can identify any note, completely unnecessary for the guitar), rather than the more traditional guitar tuner EADGBE.  It's also possible that the shop sold you a tuner for an acoustic guitar, which works on vibrations, rather than input.

 

It's possible that (1) your chromatic tuner is showing small discrepancies that human ears wouldn't notice (you could confirm this or not by letting us know how far sharp your tuner thinks your guitar is for any given fret/string) or it's possible that (2) you're using a tuner designed for an acoustic guitar on an electric guitar. In both cases I'm assuming that your eyes (on the tuner) may be deceiving your ears.

Tuners which clip onto the headstock are OK for either type of guitar. But it could be a 5hit make of tuner. Try another one OP.

[blackprince]

"Tuners which clip onto the headstock are OK for either type of guitar. "

Not quite and here's why:

Tuners which clip on to the headstock have 2 different technologies (1) driven by vibration, these were originally developed for acoustic guitars, and will be much less reliable for electric guitars which of course have substantially less vibration (2) driven by pitch via microphone - again less reliable for electric guitars for the same reason. This would be particularly true for a Les Paul, even an Epiphone clone, as they have virtually no "twang", unlike a Tele for example.

Tuners which are connected via the input jack or integrated with any other input enabled device, like an amplifier for example, were specifically developed for electric guitars.

Also, we know the OP's tuner is working correctly as it registers the correct intonation for open strings and the 12th fret.

As I suggested earlier, the OP is using a chromatic tuner (he must be if he's getting a readout for each fret), and it's possible he's getting slight discrepancies on the visual readout which aren't really apparent to the ear, but obviously only he can make a judgement about that.

 

The key point is that if  a guitar is intoned correctly at the open strings and the 12th fret then it cannot be intoned incorrectly at frets 1=11 unless there is a major problem with the neck, which I doubt in this case, or unless there is a substantial action problem which would be apparent to the OP anyway. It's just physically impossible.

[RafPinto]

Jimmy

[blackprince]

"Jimmy"

Yes Mr Page was most often photographed with a wine red Gibson Les Paul Custom.

And being the impressionable callow youth that I was back in the early 70s I saved up my pennies and bought, you guessed it, a wine red Gibson Les Paul Custom (in a sale of course). 

A few decades later upon arrival in Thailand I bought a very very cheap Chinese Les Paul  knock off somewhere along the north wall of the Chiang Mai old town. Believe me the intonation on that guitar was every bit as good as the original, and being hollow it didn't break my neck every time I used it (anyone who says a Tele is as weighty has evidently never used an original Les Paul), Materials of course nowhere near as good, but at 300th of the price who cares!

I'm 99% sure the OP will have reason to be cheerful after he's taken his guitar to Tai, let's see.

 

[canthai55]

Ate a meal with Jimmy Page years ago in Pattaya

Nice guy

[blackprince]

"Ate a meal with Jimmy Page years ago in Pattaya

Nice guy"

I also met Jimmy Page a couple of times, but not what you'd call socially. One time as a student moonlighting  as a minicab driver - I delivered a guitar to him - one of those big old Gibson flat-top jumbos - at Led Zeppelin's Swansong Records office in Chelsea - the security guy invited me upstairs to meet the man, I was a punk at the time so I tried not be unduly impressed.

And across the river where he used to do impromptu jams in Battersea Park with his friend Roy Harper, the acoustic folky stoner, around the time of Harper's "Stormcock" or a couple of years later- it was pretty shambolic like most of Harper's live outings.

By all accounts Mr Page was / is quite the gentleman in his private life, unlike some of his contemporaries, and while my own tastes have become increasingly jazzier over the decades, I'm even more stunned by some of his earlier studio work than I was at the time; not just him, but the whole band of course.

[frantick]

Could be you just have good ears or a sensitive tuner. All straight fret guitars are out of tune at various places along the neck, even when intonation is set correctly. You'd need a True Temperament neck to get close to perfect tune.

[CALSinCM]

deleted

Edited June 27, 2023 by CALSinCM