The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[Ricardo]

So TRT and Departed-Leader finally pay the price, for blatantly rigging the last 'election', well good for democracy !

But they can re-form with similar policies, under another name and hopefully a little less arrogant than before, and that's also good for democracy, no ?

Incidentally, having lived for several years in a Moslem Dictatorship, may I just say that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that this is what we now have, here in Thailand ? I guess that some farangs really must be Baa - where on earth do they get this sort of thing from !

Lastly let's hope that things continue to pass off peacefully, no ?

[tettyan]

I wish the new proposed constitution would include a clause forbidding dissolution of Parliament for frivolous reasons as Thaksin did, it would save the country a lot of money and wasted time. In my view the PM should only be able to dissolve early when he cannot muster a majority, not because he can't answerquestions in Parliament.

I disagree. This is a principle common to almost every country operating under the parliamentary system - the Cabinet (or PM) has the full power to ask the head of state to dissolve parliament.

One of the few countries to put strict restrictions on this power is Germany. Even so, former Chancellor Schroeder, through some clever legal manouvering, managed to get parliament dissolved one year early in 2005 (and then lost the election, but that's another matter). The German Constitutional Court - certainly composed of more competent legal minds than the Thai one - ruled that this was constitutional.

[ThaiGoon]

Incidentally, having lived for several years in a Moslem Dictatorship, may I just say that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that this is what we now have, here in Thailand ? I guess that some farangs really must be Baa - where on earth do they get this sort of thing from !

[farang prince]

TRT's tactics where a bit too obvious and the had a maniac leader, but apart from that...

Apart from that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

[Siripon]

Have I got this right? The constitution was scrapped, and a constitutional court was set up to judge the two main political parties for electoral corruption/fraud. One was found not guilty because the military coup negated the law and the other was found guilty.

Next phase is the presentation of a new constitution to be put to a refferendum.

I think Lewis Carrol could make a better job of running Thailand.

The Constitutional Court was set up after the previous constitution in he 1990s but the members were changed after the coup to include judges from the Supreme Court and The Supreme Administrative court. These judges are regarded as having the sharpest and most resolute legal minds in Thailand.

One reason TRT were banned maybe because both Thammarak and Pongsak were Party List members, without constituencies all theirpolitical activities were for the party rather than constituents.

It's common knowledgethat of the over 100 TRT executives only 10 or so had any active role in the party's policies, the rest were granted the posts for services rendered.

I wish the new proposed constitution would include a clause forbidding dissolution of Parliament for frivolous reasons as Thaksin did, it would save the country a lot of money and wasted time. In my view the PM should only be able to dissolve early when he cannot muster a majority, not because he can't answerquestions in Parliament.

I was under the impression that he dissolved the house to hold snap elections to show he had a clear mandate to remain in power (which he had). Hardly "frivolous".

Of course the Democrats had absolutely no chance of winning so they threw their toys out of the pram and refused to play.

Let us not forget this is the party who betray their name at every opportunity, they are anything but Democratic, asking for a Royally appointed Prime Minister when trying to oust the democratically elected one.

We only have to listen to the Words of His Majesty, who said then of the situation, "Asking for a Royally appointed prime minister is undemocratic. It is, pardon me, a mess. It is irrational".

Wise words.

There's the rub as they say- what do you call a clear mandate?

I would suggest a clear mandate means winning a fair election having stated and answered all relevant questions regarding future policies and previous political performances.

Transparency for the people.

But Thaksin refused to answer questions, controlling all the TV stations barring ASTV he knew he wouldn't have to answer to the Thai people.

No accountability.

And soon he and or his wife will have to answer in the courts. If he's innocent he has nothing to fear.

[Peter Bysouth]

> The least they could have done is sorted out the logic of their decisions!

There isn't any. They tried to hide it but I think it's clear to all that this verdict was a done deal and handed down from above to judge Somchai.

Keep in mind, the military doesn't WANT stability. They actually want people in the North and North East to boycott (or vote against) the next constitution.. keeps them in power.

It's been an exceptionally sad day for Thailand, and you know what: we've not hit rock bottom yet.

There will be mayhem in the farmlands another South is being created in the North. The poor will get poorer and the rich will have to take more care.

[Gary A]

This entire fiasco reminds me of a discussion I had many years ago with my Dad. He was a Teamster and we were talking about Jimmy Hoffa. I was making fun of the fact that Hoffa was a gangster. My Dad agreed and told me that Jimmy had gotten a lot of things for the rank and file also. The fact that Hoffa stole a lot wasn't important. The Thai people are used to corruption and as long as the people gain a little benefit they don't care. Corruption is a way of life here in Thailand and regardless of who runs the country it will continue to be a way of life. The best advice is not to concern yourself with thing you have no control over AND you certainly have no control over Thai politics.

[canuckamuck]

A lot of opinions either way about the decision, but the excitement is over a puff of smoke. The judgments yesterday were a formality, a legal facade to display some governmental activity. Any result would have been as pointless - but one perceived to be more even-handed would have been wiser.

Thai society has never had a great appreciation of integrity and therefore has no reward to give to any politician who might try this avenue of governance. For this reason, all Thai politicians are necessarily corrupt. Some of them though, are also stupid.

Those of you, who are so quick to judge Thaksin, fail to see that at least his corruption did not destroy the economy or steal away the flimsy underpinnings of democratic structure. If there had been someone else in power at that time, it is unlikely there would have been less corruption and equally unlikely that Thailand would have performed as well economically. At least Thaksin didn’t destroy Thailand’s international standing as progressive and democratic.

It is certain that there is not much further Thailand can fall now as it is caught in a now expanded whirlpool of egos and ambition.

The judgment yesterday has only opened the door to new opportunists that previously were irrelevant. Many people are angry and they will be looking for an outlet. Lower level politicians are now free to capitalize on this outrage and build their own political legacy.

Anger towards the establishment is the most effective way to build a power base. It is also the quickest way to breed socialism and anarchy. Because the judges failed to appear even a little bit neutral, anti government forces now have a lifetime supply of dissent to draw from.

Thailand could go any which way now, the safety net of establishment has dissolved completely.

[Mid]

AND you certainly have no control over Thai politics.

Fortunately NOT TRUE ............

Educate your Tilak .

[cmiuc]

Let's examine the facts here:

Thai Rak Thai, led by Thaksin, was democratically elected by an overwhelming majority of Thais

Yes, Thaksin was corrupt....but no more than the other politicians in Thailand. His big mistake was being so obvious about it...but he wasn't ever one to hide his actions was he? If the Thai people had a problem with that, they should have been given the opportunity to impeach him and try him under the rule of law.

The country prospered mightily under Thaksin. Thailand repaid the IMF loan ahead of time. Salaries and incomes rose as the economy boomed. The property market boomed and Thais in all economic strata were making money as a result.

The military currently destroying this country and making it almost impossible for foreigners to stay here have no legal standing, as most Western countries have made clear.

Investors have voted with their feet....perhaps something the Thais should do by sitting down in front of parliament, or wherever the thieves who stole the country from the Thai people operate from, and raise their feet in the ultimate insult. Perhaps this action might actually get under the thick hides of the boys in green and they will leave. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Once again we have no Constitution. The rich elite top families pulling the puppet strings are destroying the very country that has given them so many riches. Greed obviously overcomes common sense every time, doesn't it?

You got this right! And many people in the North want Taksin to come back. As someone has said earlier on this subject, he was dishonest, but the poor people got the reform and some of the benefits... look at the credit industry, most of these people are living on that now... and where did that come from? I have not seen anything done yet by the current admin, other than some mudslinging... etc.. I think there will be some drama soon! or Mama will be the national food of the people...

[MarcHolt]

Oh yes, Oldhand, you are missing much more than you think.

A friend rang me this morning talking about the situation. He said he was confused. How could a military government that overthrew a democratically elected government have the gall to throw out that legally constituted political party while claiming to be 'protecting' democracy?

Let's examine the facts here:

1. Thai Rak Thai, led by Thaksin, was democratically elected by an overwhelming majority of Thais
   
2. Yes, Thaksin was corrupt....but no more than the other politicians in Thailand. His big mistake was being so obvious about it...but he wasn't ever one to hide his actions was he? If the Thai people had a problem with that, they should have been given the opportunity to impeach him and try him under the rule of law.
   
3. The country prospered mightily under Thaksin. Thailand repaid the IMF loan ahead of time. Salaries and incomes rose as the economy boomed. The property market boomed and Thais in all economic strata were making money as a result.
   
4. The military currently destroying this country and making it almost impossible for foreigners to stay here have no legal standing, as most Western countries have made clear.
   
5. Investors have voted with their feet....perhaps something the Thais should do by sitting down in front of parliament, or wherever the thieves who stole the country from the Thai people operate from, and raise their feet in the ultimate insult. Perhaps this action might actually get under the thick hides of the boys in green and they will leave. But I wouldn't bet on it.
   
6. Once again we have no Constitution. The rich elite top families pulling the puppet strings are destroying the very country that has given them so many riches. Greed obviously overcomes common sense every time, doesn't it?
   

In fact, there was absolutely no need for this pitiful charade the judges just went through. It was all orchestrated so that the military boys could emasculate TRT and thereby keep themselves in power. Does anyone want to take any bets on when we will actually have elections?

Sorry Marc, obviously I was not making sense.

Although I do not condone the method by which Taksin prospered, he brought a political stability to Thailand that was previously unreachable. Consequently the country prospered. This was only undermined by his own greed and self belief and by ignoring his previous mentors he left them no choice but to remove him by force.

What I meant to say is that I don't think that the removal of 111 names from a party list or the loss of the TRT name will change anything drastically once the country returns to Democracy. I do believe that the Military will hand over power either this year or early next but once again they have dramatically stated that they are not to be ignored in the political process.

Agreed. This whole exercise has been totally unnecessary and futile. If anything, it has destabilized the country even more.

Don't forget that the PM has publicly stated a few times that he wants to appoint provincial governors from the military, as well as appoint the PM while allowing the Thais to vote for the rest. Isn't that gracious of him?

From my conversations with many foreigners in Bangkok and around the country, there is no confidence in this government. Many are leaving, and a lot more are waiting to see what happens next. If things continue to slide, we will see a lot more of us leaving. Foreign investors are hanging back, taking their money to other countries.

This is a shameful day for the country, and one that will set us back even further than we already were.

Now, which way is Mecca?

[Felt 35]

Are you forgetting that Nong T paid for the party 100% - it was not a democratic entity, it was his personal playpen bought and paid for from the proceeds of a company founded and then expanded on the back of privileged decisions while he was in the Chaovalit cabinet.

The words Nationalist and Socialist were occurring far too often in the TRT circuit for any "western-friendly" government to allow TRT to continue. Comparisons to a certain other party with those qualities, that was also put down by military intervention (on a massive scale) were becoming too common place - domestically and internationally. It had to stop, for the good of the country.

There is an additional subtle message in this decision - the old system of patronage and favour is starting to be closed down, wealth will in future not be the criteria for political office. Corruption is accountable also comes through as a further message in the decision.

Gaz

BRAVO

[cmiuc]

QUOTE(Ricardo @ 2007-05-31 10:01:16)

Incidentally, having lived for several years in a Moslem Dictatorship, may I just say that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that this is what we now have, here in Thailand ? I guess that some farangs really must be Baa - where on earth do they get this sort of thing from !

I am not sure what you are referring to Ricardo... did you hear that there was a secret document from the either the 2nd man in charge or high up appointed minister of Khun Sonthi. He is muslem, and his secret plan is to convert Thailand to a Muslim nation within 10 years, but the document later revised and said his plan is going smooth and faster than what he had planned, so he projects within 3-5 years. Oh, yes, he is the one in control of the military... so that means he has the power support.

I didn't know about this document until a Thai person told me about it, because they are upset... than I confirm with a politician in the local government that this is the plan. I believe Indonesia was another country that this sort of plan was given and today... its what? So whether this can succeed or not, from our perspective that remains to seen, but if the All Thai's don't become proactive in their life as a whole, than the things that are happening and have happened can and will happen if the strong arm is easily motivated.

I just pass along what was told to me by the natives of this country... So I don't think any of us are all too 'BAA' unless we've had 1 too many drinks...

Regards,

[jdinasia]

QUOTE(Ricardo @ 2007-05-31 10:01:16)

Incidentally, having lived for several years in a Moslem Dictatorship, may I just say that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that this is what we now have, here in Thailand ? I guess that some farangs really must be Baa - where on earth do they get this sort of thing from !

I am not sure what you are referring to Ricardo... did you hear that there was a secret document from the either the 2nd man in charge or high up appointed minister of Khun Sonthi. He is muslem, and his secret plan is to convert Thailand to a Muslim nation within 10 years, but the document later revised and said his plan is going smooth and faster than what he had planned, so he projects within 3-5 years. Oh, yes, he is the one in control of the military... so that means he has the power support.

I didn't know about this document until a Thai person told me about it, because they are upset... than I confirm with a politician in the local government that this is the plan. I believe Indonesia was another country that this sort of plan was given and today... its what? So whether this can succeed or not, from our perspective that remains to seen, but if the All Thai's don't become proactive in their life as a whole, than the things that are happening and have happened can and will happen if the strong arm is easily motivated.

I just pass along what was told to me by the natives of this country... So I don't think any of us are all too 'BAA' unless we've had 1 too many drinks...

Regards,

cmiuc

you MUST have had one too many drinks

[ThaiGoon]

QUOTE(Ricardo @ 2007-05-31 10:01:16)

Incidentally, having lived for several years in a Moslem Dictatorship, may I just say that it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that this is what we now have, here in Thailand ? I guess that some farangs really must be Baa - where on earth do they get this sort of thing from !

I am not sure what you are referring to Ricardo... did you hear that there was a secret document from the either the 2nd man in charge or high up appointed minister of Khun Sonthi. He is muslem, and his secret plan is to convert Thailand to a Muslim nation within 10 years, but the document later revised and said his plan is going smooth and faster than what he had planned, so he projects within 3-5 years. Oh, yes, he is the one in control of the military... so that means he has the power support.

I didn't know about this document until a Thai person told me about it, because they are upset... than I confirm with a politician in the local government that this is the plan. I believe Indonesia was another country that this sort of plan was given and today... its what? So whether this can succeed or not, from our perspective that remains to seen, but if the All Thai's don't become proactive in their life as a whole, than the things that are happening and have happened can and will happen if the strong arm is easily motivated.

I just pass along what was told to me by the natives of this country... So I don't think any of us are all too 'BAA' unless we've had 1 too many drinks...

Regards,

Wow, one of the most top secret plans to take over Thailand is being revealed right before our eyes on this TV forum. Oooooooh. :D

[younghusband]

And one must note that the elections in 2001 and 2005 were the most corrupt free in Thai history, according to Transparency International.

Transparency International clearly never set foot in Isan. The vast majority of TRT voters came from this area, and voted TRT simply because they were in receipt of 300bt/500bt per head to do so. I know -I live here! Most have not the slightest interest in politics -only money! Money for cards, money for lao cow and money for the underground lottery!

If vote buying had been stopped (and it could have been with prosecutions and heavy penalties) we would never have been in the position we are today. TRT would never have had an overall majority .

Very naive post.Vote buying has long been endemic in rural Thailand and certainly wasn't started by the TRT.Economic resources have long been skewed towards Bangkok and urban middle classes, and in a way that kind of "pork barrelling" is far worse than giving poor people a few hundred baht.Anyway the poster misses the point that TRT for the first time gave the rural poor a feeling that someone genuinely represented their interests.They may have been mistaken by this but the genie is out of the bottle now, and the rural majority can no longer be ignored or patronised as the poster does with his "lao cow, underground lottery,gambling" jibe.And by the way just because you live in a place doesn't make you necessarily understand it.You don't seem to.

You must be feeling a little sheepish this morning YH after your confident assertion following the King's speech that both parties would be spared dissolution.

I was puzzled you were so confident as it seemed to me the King was emphasising the judgements must be clear enough for the people to understand and the judges must be prepared to accept criticism from some quarters.

So this is a splendid and opportune moment for decent, motivated and educated Issanites and Northerners to step forward and form a party dedicated to the interests of the rural and urban poor.

Mr Surayasai, your time has come.

Actually I still believe that the necessarily Delphic advice was as I suugested, though you will remember I fully agreed with a poster that it might not be acted upon.Anyway I have no monopoly of wisdom on this and though not feeling the slightest bit sheepish, acknowledge that your interpretation might be right.By coincidence I was talking a couple of nights ago to a highly placed Thai (holding a minor ministerial office in a pre-Thaksin government) who shared my interpretation of the palace remarks though he had some unkind words to say about the influence of Thanpuying Prem.

As to your "prachot" remarks about Isan and Northern leadership, don't you think it would be appropriate for educated Bangkok based politicians to regard the rural majority as their important responsibility.The concept of noblesse oblige seems rather rare but I have high hopes of Khun Abhisit (my hero!).Anyway I suppose nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants, as of course were most of their families only a few generations ago.

But look on the bright side.The eclipse of Thaksin and TRT may signify the end of the obsessive one dimensional posts on this forum -no need to mention names.

[Gary A]

Life goes on and this too will pass. BUT, IMHO, I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with a democratically elected government than a military government that is accountable to no one.

I'm not fond of George Bush either but he was elected and he will finish his term without the military staging a coup.

[calibanjr.]

For all of the sins of Mr Thaksin and TRT, banning a large party is simply a bad precedent, and a step back from democracy.

Are you forgetting that Nong T paid for the party 100% - it was not a democratic entity, it was his personal playpen bought and paid for from the proceeds of a company founded and then expanded on the back of privileged decisions while he was in the Chaovalit cabinet.

The words Nationalist and Socialist were occurring far too often in the TRT circuit for any "western-friendly" government to allow TRT to continue. Comparisons to a certain other party with those qualities, that was also put down by military intervention (on a massive scale) were becoming too common place - domestically and internationally. It had to stop, for the good of the country.

There is an additional subtle message in this decision - the old system of patronage and favour is starting to be closed down, wealth will in future not be the criteria for political office. Corruption is accountable also comes through as a further message in the decision.

Gaz

Holy Sh*t! You must have some great weed!

Edited May 31, 2007 by calibanjr.

[lukamar]

We only have to listen to the Words of His Majesty, who said then of the situation, "Asking for a Royally appointed prime minister is undemocratic. It is, pardon me, a mess. It is irrational".

Wise words.

In the same speech he said, if I remember correctly, a one party system is undemocratic.

[jdinasia]

The Constitutional Tribunal disbands Thai Rak Thai

They also revoked the voting rights of the party's 111 executives for five years. The party has committed wrongdoings that have negative impacts on democracy system of the country.

Read: This Muslim Military Dictatorship will be around for AT LEAST the next five years .... to police the decision of the court. I've said it before and I'll say it again ... Thailand will become a Muslim nation. Just watch as the Buddhist heartland to the north and north east gets eroded and emproilled in turmoil. Meanwhile, the current government will eventually take credit for pacifying the south .... and opening the door to the Muslims.

Praise Buddha, our children are being educated in Australia.

Virgil, Out!

insanely paranoid? or just insane ....?

Next on Springer!

Muslim military dictatorship? 555

you really need to start learning about Thailand and reality!

[nikster]

Just my two satangs worth, and I'm probably not qualified to speak 'coz I'm in the UK

I'm not qualified to speak either. I'm in Thailand, but from the UK. That's fine. What's not fine is that the majority of Thais were also considered not qualified to speak. Just take a trip around Thailand and ask the (70-80%) "bahn nock" villagers who they voted for twice, and who they would have voted for yet again if the rug of democracy hadn't been pulled from under their feet. TRT had no need of illegal electioneering. Beware of an effective propaganda machine. All nations keep one handy. This is no exception.

Interesting. I agree that TRT had lots of real support.

But he fact remains that they did buy elections and they did buy those parties. By any normal standards, TRT committed major electoral fraud. I am not saying that as a legal statement but as somebody who has lived in Thailand for the last few years and has seen vans of suits dropping by here in the country village before elections, buying beers and handing out money before the election.

I think TRT may very well have won playing fair. TRT may have been populist, may have lied to people - but that's all not illegal. TRT may have bought out successful politicians from other parties - 'convinced' them to join TRT with cash payments or by other means. By and large, that's not clearly illegal either though. What is clearly illegal is buying other parties to act as straw men, and flat out buying votes, and TRT has also done both and must be punished for it.

That holds true even if TRT is very popular.

Stability comes from the rule of the law. In this sense, any ruling that upholds the rule of the law must be applauded. Even if it puts the country in a difficult situation. I see it as a ray of light that only 100-odd TRT members were banned from politics - that's a sensible ruling because it allows the rest to start a new party and get on with life while dealing out sufficient justice.

PS: Absence of the rule of law is in some ways the only problem in Thailand. It's not conceivable how Thailand can reach the point where it has a stable and working legal system. However, if it did, all the other problems could be solved. So restoring the rule of law must be the highest goal of everyone.

[lukamar]

I disagree. This is a principle common to almost every country operating under the parliamentary system - the Cabinet (or PM) has the full power to ask the head of state to dissolve parliament.

I agree and the Head of State did give his consent to the election call.

[sibeymai]

New pigs at the trough. So what else is new ?

[TAWP]

All internet use was stopped, television programmes were monitored and an awful lot of people were killed.

15 years ago. Hmmm. I don't even remember I ever heard the word, internet, in Thailand 15 years ago. No disrespect, but your hushand must have quite a memory.

As early as 1990 there were about 50 BBS's in Bangkok. Communication was easy, by 1992, the time span referred too here, BBS communication, especially in journalistic world was widespread. I personally do not recall any of the systems being shut down during May 92 coup, but is possible that many did not work due to the military martial law that prevented people from going to work. Early in 1993 I registered with ksc, one of the first subscribers using Pine to communicate via email to friends around the world through Washington University. So no disrespect, but do not challenge my memory.

You connect to BBS's [directly] via a normal telephone-line, not via Internet.

So no disrespect to your memory, only your technical know-how.

[TAWP]

And to infer that replacing a democratically elected government with a Muslim Military Dictatorship is just .... well ... dumb!

Virgil, Out!

Puuuhleease.

Muslim dictatorship? For crying out loud...

[ozzydom]

Well so far I have read that all Thais are to become Muslim,Adolph Hitler is alive and stirring the pot in Thailand,there are to be reds under every bed,civil war is imminent,the junta will be in power in 2057. We do have some fertile LITTLE imaginations on TV.

Next thing I will read that bar fines and beer are to have a 500% VAT added at point of sale

[Gary A]

The major problem is that Thaksin did nothing legally wrong. Everything he did he made legal because he was smarter than the rest of them. What brought it to a head was his arrogance. You can't rub people's noses in their mistakes without upsetting many of them. Being outsmarted is hard on Thai face especially when you can buy and sell them all and the reason he was able to do that is because they helped him.

[nick2k]

wouldn't it be funny if...

the young people in the TRT party formed a new party, and then, won the upcoming elections in december?

[TAWP]

Gary A>>Paying off parties to run to bypass election-laws are illegal and are in part what brought this on.

nick2k>>Yes, you might think it would be funny...I wouldn't expect any less from you.

Edited May 31, 2007 by TAWP

[bentrein]

Having read all, I think most has been said that needs saying - for now. Only one thing I remember reading - but I can't find where, so no direct quote - that wasn't picked up on. Somewhere someone said that we should watch for a junta backed campaign for people to vote 'No' to the new constitution. I can see where this is coming from, but I think the military is only trying to get a Yes vote for the current draft. This is, because the current draft does NOT seperate the three different powers that are so important for a good functioning constitution. If all vote yes - just because we need to get back to democracy soon - we are voting for a constitution that gives the military a say in the law making process - among other things. The current draft seems to be trying to involve all three powers in all three processes (law making, executing and checking/controlling). This is an intolerable situation.

The constitution as is should be sent back to the drafting table. The junta will - if you ask me - be only served if Thailand votes yes!

Edit: And @ chanchao; you've made your position on TRT and Your Glorious Leader Thugsin clear over and over. You stated somewhere that you or your family will never again vote Democrats. I don't think you (or they) ever have. Your reasoning for this seems a bit strange though... You accuse the Democrats of being undemocratic as they boycotted an election that was illegal in the first place. How can that be?

Edited May 31, 2007 by bentrein