The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[octagon]

Phony elections without the participation of the most popular political party will not resolve deep political crisis in Thailand.

I'm not qualified to speak either. I'm in Thailand, but from the UK. That's fine. What's not fine is that the majority of Thais were also considered not qualified to speak. Just take a trip around Thailand and ask the (70-80%) "bahn nock" villagers who they voted for twice, and who they would have voted for yet again if the rug of democracy hadn't been pulled from under their feet.

TRT had no need of illegal electioneering. Beware of an effective propaganda machine. All nations keep one handy. This is no exception.

I for one am tired of being fed all the crap from the junta about how bad things were under Thaksin. So what if he stole millions as we're led to believe, and that he bought votes and his way into power. At least the country was moving out of the last century and prospering and free.

 

Edited May 31, 2007 by octagon

[TAWP]

free.

Did you even live here?

[Plus]

The charges again TRT initially stem from a report by the EC investigative panel filed long before the coup, before the sacking and jailing of EC commissioners (who swept the report under the carpet, btw), even before the April elections were declared illegal.

I understand how people do not trust military appointed tribunal, but TRT DID break the law and dissolution WAS recommended from the very beginning.

[looping]

I haven't read the replies on this topic. I just wanted to express my joy that Thaksin has been officially banned from politics for 5 years. Who knows, maybe one day he will have to explain his actions regarding his time in power, but for now, this is good enough.

I'm happy too for the Democrats and I feel that they are the future of Thailand.

I am however, a little disappointed with the world media, especially the BBC, who gave the impression that this is a step further away from Democracy and seem to take Thaksins side, only briefly mentioning that Thaksin was accused of misuse of power, and don't really report details of what he is accused of. The BBC should be better informed, maybe their BKK correspondant should prepare a more balanced story, maybe even daring to say that the coup was the last ditch attempt of free men to save Thailand from an evil dictator!

Anyway, before I digress too much, may I urge any TRT supporters to examine the reasoning behind the verdict, to accept that this is a fair and just verdict and to swallow their pride for they were fooled by a very clever and greedy man!

For the time being at least, good prevails!

[nick2k]

Gary A>>Paying off parties to run to bypass election-laws are illegal and are in part what brought this on.

nick2k>>Yes, you might think it would be funny...I wouldn't expect any less from you.

wow! that was one quick response. you must be able to read minds. ..as for your comment about quote, "I wouldn't expect any less from you.", you must have read a lot my postings to know how I think. personally, I don't know you from jacksh#t. but hey. we are all entitled to our opinions - hopefully.

[Plus]

nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants

The only person expressing such views in this thread was our self proclaimed champion of the poor ("they are too stupid to understand the language of the verdict").

edit - Oh, sorry, I just saw Lightseeker's post.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Plus

[Mid]

Having read all, I think most has been said that needs saying - for now. Only one thing I remember reading - but I can't find where, so no direct quote - that wasn't picked up on. Somewhere someone said that we should watch for a junta backed campaign for people to vote 'No' to the new constitution. I can see where this is coming from, but I think the military is only trying to get a Yes vote for the current draft. This is, because the current draft does NOT seperate the three different powers that are so important for a good functioning constitution. If all vote yes - just because we need to get back to democracy soon - we are voting for a constitution that gives the military a say in the law making process - among other things. The current draft seems to be trying to involve all three powers in all three processes (law making, executing and checking/controlling). This is an intolerable situation.

The constitution as is should be sent back to the drafting table. The junta will - if you ask me - be only served if Thailand votes yes!

agree

[MarcHolt]

All internet use was stopped, television programmes were monitored and an awful lot of people were killed.

15 years ago. Hmmm. I don't even remember I ever heard the word, internet, in Thailand 15 years ago. No disrespect, but your hushand must have quite a memory.

As early as 1990 there were about 50 BBS's in Bangkok. Communication was easy, by 1992, the time span referred too here, BBS communication, especially in journalistic world was widespread. I personally do not recall any of the systems being shut down during May 92 coup, but is possible that many did not work due to the military martial law that prevented people from going to work. Early in 1993 I registered with ksc, one of the first subscribers using Pine to communicate via email to friends around the world through Washington University. So no disrespect, but do not challenge my memory.

You connect to BBS's [directly] via a normal telephone-line, not via Internet.

So no disrespect to your memory, only your technical know-how.

Yep, this is true. i ran Imagen BBS in those days. No government interference, ever. Not even during the coup, so I don't know where you got the impression that the BBS's were shut down. Never happened.

[TAWP]

..as for your comment about quote, "I wouldn't expect any less from you.", you must have read a lot my postings to know how I think. personally, I don't know you from jacksh#t. but hey. we are all entitled to our opinions - hopefully.

We ALL know what you think about some of the world issues Nick2k, you clearly have stated them on this forum. Your love for protectionism, love for patents and dislike globalisation as a way for poorer countries to move on up is clearly read. We just have to click your post history to see them.

[nick2k]

nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants

The only person expressing such views in this thread was our self proclaimed champion of the poor ("they are too stupid to understand the language of the verdict").

edit - Oh, sorry, I just saw Lightseeker's post.

the bangkokpost once did an article on the breakdown of thai people in regards to education. it said in the article that 80% of the thai people have less than a high school education. which is also saying that only 20% of the thai people have a high school education or above.

if the the information provided by the bangkokpost is true, then, what do you call someone who has less than a high school education?

[ColPyat]

nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants

The only person expressing such views in this thread was our self proclaimed champion of the poor ("they are too stupid to understand the language of the verdict").

edit - Oh, sorry, I just saw Lightseeker's post.

If you want to quote me, then quote me correctly please, and not just make my quotes up. Or is plain English too difficult for you?

[Baan Kiki]

I believe they were guilty of cheating. Now there is power vacuum. All part of dismantling the old power structure.

Corruption, is endemic here, and like all corruption is used to keep the rich, rich and powerfull and the poor, poor and helpless.

Yes, by all means start at the top, but instead of tweeking the regulations and laws to make themselves look busy, this government would have been in an ideal situation to start puting an end to this type of most anti-social behaviour. The only country to slip from 1st world to 3rd world status was Jamaca... and the reason...corruption. The real fight, if Thailand wants to advance itself lies in letting go of their dog eat dog mentality, and their inability to see the poverty they crawl and scramble over in their efforts to maintain their positions of power.

[Plus]

A friend rang me this morning talking about the situation. He said he was confused. How could a military government that overthrew a democratically elected government have the gall to throw out that legally constituted political party while claiming to be 'protecting' democracy?

There was no democratically elected government at the time of the coup, there was an interim govt. Small differene but it makes the junta look a lot less evil.

The Constitution Tribunal consisted of the country's top judges, not some unknowns military appointees. That also takes away lots of steam. That, and the fact that the case had been started long before the coup.

Also the judges made a clear connection - TRT execs commiting a fraud on behalf of the party, and the party acting on behalf of Thaksin personally. They made it a clear point - parlament dissolution and snap elections were caused by Thaksin's personal business problems, not politics. Something stated before the coup when the election was declared illegal.

I hope this helps if your frends rings again.

[Paul123456]

YAY! for the Constitution Court and for Thailand. Great to see a well thought out ruling and no silly reaction as yet.

Politicians all over the world are corrupt and greedy and not of much value. Thailand's aren't much different. But here, it has been great that something gets done about it. Well done for the military for taking such a hard step towards re-establishing a more democratic system, and well done for the courts for applying the law.

Certainly in Australia, for many years we have seen politicians lie and cheat to get power and money. But nothing would ever be done against them. They are free to be as crap as they wish. Remember when Howard lied about the children overboard to stir up racism to win an election? Remember when Howard lied about Iraq so he could send young soldiers to support USA's invasion? Remember Joh and his continually changes election boundaries. Nothing happens in Australia. The system there seems beyond fixing. I suspect USA, Britain and many others are the same.

Thailand has problems but there is much more hope here. There is a real sense that people value their freedom and their society.

As for the Democrats and their leader. They were very lucky that nothing conclusive could be proved against them. I suggest that they eat some humble pie, stop focussing on power and start exploring how they can best SERVE the people (not RULE them). A good look at His Majesty or of Buddha's teaching should help point out the way.

[Rinnam]

I believe they were guilty of cheating. Now there is power vacuum. All part of dismantling the old power structure.

I agree. The result is fair. WHy the TRT party committee shouldn't deserve this? They hired small parties to send candidates for their own benifit of national election because they were afriad that if their candidate can't get 20% of the total votes (without any competitor), the result would be dissolved and the election wouldnt not end. Then, TRT couldnt' set up a government. Is this the way of democracy? By ignoring all the corruption they have made, they still deserve punishments.

[nick2k]

..as for your comment about quote, "I wouldn't expect any less from you.", you must have read a lot my postings to know how I think. personally, I don't know you from jacksh#t. but hey. we are all entitled to our opinions - hopefully.

We ALL know what you think about some of the world issues Nick2k, you clearly have stated them on this forum. Your love for protectionism, love for patents and dislike globalisation as a way for poorer countries to move on up is clearly read. We just have to click your post history to see them.

except for the misleading remarks on "poorer countries", I confess. I don't like globalization, believe in the patent system, and would like to see all american companies back in america providing jobs to americans.

but let me add this....

this is the same mentality (except for the patent system) that many thais share with me. for that matter, many people in the world share with me. of course, for thais, their loyalty is of course for their own people. as is it is with the chinese, etc.

actually, from reading the newspapers here and in other parts of the world, I would have to say my nationalistic side is much less prevalent than what I read in many editiorials throughout the world - including the nation, and bangkok post.

I fight for the rights of my country, for my people. just like you do.

KHON THAI RIPLAO!!!!!!

[Plus]

nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants

The only person expressing such views in this thread was our self proclaimed champion of the poor ("they are too stupid to understand the language of the verdict").

edit - Oh, sorry, I just saw Lightseeker's post.

If you want to quote me, then quote me correctly please, and not just make my quotes up. Or is plain English too difficult for you?

ok.

The only problem here is that the language used was for most Thais not understandable, mostly a very complicated legal Thai, so detailed that most people just could not concentrate long enough to get the context.

Even several educated people i have asked about that had difficulties to follow, and lesser educated Thais understood nothing.

[Tony Clifton]

I see that TRT's annoying short-term memory has kicked in again, or maybe is it their constant state of denial and disregard for the law?

Thai Rak Thai to appeal against five-year ban

Chaturon Chaisang, leader of the disbanded Thai Rak Thai party, said his party would file an appeal the Constitution Tribunal's ruling that ban 111 Thai Rak Thai executives from politics for five years.

But Chaturon did not elaborate how the appeal would be filed.

He said he had not talked to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra about the plan to appeal against the ruling yet.

The Nation

Chaturon vows to revive "Thai Rak Thai" party

Chaturon Chaisang, leader of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party, vowed early Thursday morning that a new party would be set up under the same name of Thai Rak Thai.

He said the party members would remain working under the Thai Rak Thai group.

The party executives, who have been banned from politics for five years, will work from behind to have a new party set up.

"We will not use any other name but we will use Thai Rak Tha as the new party's name," Chaturon told party supporters at a rally in front of the party head office amid heavy downpours.

The Nation

Sudarat says Thai Rak Thai's spirit indestructible

Sudarat Keyuraphan, deputy leader of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party, said the spirit of the party could not be destroyed.

Sudarat was speaking to party supporters at rally in front of the party early Thursday morning.

She said "the people with guns who are now in power" could destroy only the outfit, not the spirit, of the party.

She said the Thai Rak Thai would remain working as a political group.

She called on party supporters not to resort to violence but exercise patience.

"We can express our dissatisfaction by becoming members of Thai Rak Thai group," she told the party supporters.

The Nation

[ColPyat]

There was no democratically elected government at the time of the coup, there was an interim govt. Small differene but it makes the junta look a lot less evil.

And elections were announced and on the way - the chance to change the government through democratic means. But instead of putting forward better policies the other parties have just tried and succeeded to delay the elections, and then those supposedly democratic parties sycophantly cheering the military coup.

And the military, that according to their own explanations made the coup because the divisions in society, and supposedly impending violence between the different political factions saw no other solution than making the coup.

What a pile of rubbish and lies. Sickening. Since the coup nothing has been done to heal the divisions in society other than intimidation and the setting up of military control mechanisms over the country such as the ISOC. Mechanisms that already now are taken out of future parliamentary control, only responsible to the Army commander.

Ironic that the same people here who were enraged about allegations that Thaksin has turned PAD supporters back and hindered them from taking part in the Bangkok demonstrations are now applauding the military that systematically turns back villagers trying to take part in anti coup demonstrations.

Funny - those people accused Thaksin supporters of not understanding democracy, and now the same people support of infraction against freedom of speach by the Junta. It really appears that lack of understanding of democracy and rights is not just limited to Thai villagers, but especially to posters on internet boards.

Anyhow, stay away from Royal Plaza today, there will be a gathering of many very angry people, opposing a notoriously paranoid junta, that is also riddled with factional infighting.

[peter48]

When all is said and done the former government 1) gave more economic security to the poor of Thailand 2 ) ran a dynamic & expanding economy 3) presented an image of Thailand internationally which was open and generally fair and tolerant.

Presently the picture we have abroad of Thailand does not seem to fit that image. I hope liberal democracy will soon be re-established.

[hammered]

Now that Thaksin has said he will accept the ruling, I wonder if Chaturon will back down on his belligerence? Obviously last night he was well emotional and in the cold light of day may see things differently.

Having read as much as the ruling as possible it comes over as a careful and logical arguement. It is also easy for anyone to understand. In fact the whole day has gone pretty much as street gossip waas the day the cases were sent by the EC to the AG: "TRT paid some parties and then got their acolytes to link the Dems to it too even though the Dems hadnt done anything." That the ruling mirrors what was widely believed at the time will not only make it easier to understand but also to accept.

Interestingly it is a verdict that much of the military probably would rather not have seen too now that Somkid and Somsak are gone for a few years.

Hopefully there will be no violence and the country can move forward. It is positive that Mr. Thaksin seems to have accepted the verdict although he has done a few about faces before and has been known to lie. Chaturon will hopefully be less emotional today as if he carries on like that he will be close to advocating violence.

An interesting and surprising decision in many ways. Let hope today passes peacefully.

[ColPyat]

nothing will change the view of most middle class Bangkokians that the rural majority is composed of stupid and ignorant peasants

The only person expressing such views in this thread was our self proclaimed champion of the poor ("they are too stupid to understand the language of the verdict").

edit - Oh, sorry, I just saw Lightseeker's post.

If you want to quote me, then quote me correctly please, and not just make my quotes up. Or is plain English too difficult for you?

ok.

The only problem here is that the language used was for most Thais not understandable, mostly a very complicated legal Thai, so detailed that most people just could not concentrate long enough to get the context.

Even several educated people i have asked about that had difficulties to follow, and lesser educated Thais understood nothing.

Good that you have been able to find my quote. Now there is still the comprehension problem left.

As you can see i have posted that the ten hour drivel even left several educated people i have asked with difficulties to follow. And now you can go back to tettyan's post, which pointed out several logical mistakes in the reasoning.

I don't really see where i have used the term "too stupid". It may be news to you - but lack of education and stupidity are completely different matters.

[ColPyat]

Now that Thaksin has said he will accept the ruling, I wonder if Chaturon will back down on his belligerence? Obviously last night he was well emotional and in the cold light of day may see things differently.

Chaturon has yesterday night tried to calm people down by appealing to them to keep TRT in their hearts, and to set TRT up anew when the dictatorship is over.

The problem here is not how emotional Chaturon is/was, but how emotional many Thais are who feel cheated.

[John K]

I was just reading some of the short news blurbs that are on the nation’s page and already the TRT is making threats and noise. Appeal? To who? Continue to work? Is that contempt of court?

The trap door has been sprung, gravity has taken over, just waiting for the slack in the rope to be used up I guess.

[gennisis]

Thaksin has really quit politics now!

There goes the football deal!

Ref to Toxic

I guess if the ex PM does buy Man City(assuming he can get his money out of Thailand quickly),then you wont be watching Man City games on TV here.

[hammered]

Maybe early elections will now be called. Whenever they are called lets hope it is before the "hero" of 1997 and Ban Rom Khlao old Chavalit decides to resurrect himself to "save" the country.

[womble]

I was just reading some of the short news blurbs that are on the nation’s page and already the TRT is making threats and noise. Appeal? To who? Continue to work? Is that contempt of court?

The trap door has been sprung, gravity has taken over, just waiting for the slack in the rope to be used up I guess.

They are so arogant!

[hammered]

The appeal thing is weird. It is not a criminal case so they cannot go to the supreme court. Possibly they could go to the Supreme Administartive court if they can find some conflict between admin entities in the constitutional tribunal or what it did. Personally I dont think they could find a court to even accept their appeal. Their only other option would be an appeal for a pardon. A pardon is rarely granted so quickly. Another option may be to wait until a new elected government is formed and then appeal to them to issue some law.

On the other hand much of what TRT says is bluster. This may be just that too. We will appeal equalling we will not accept the verdict even thoguh we promised to. TRT have right from the first PAD demos until now always hung the threat of violence over everything if they didnt get their way. Now we will see if they are actually going to go that far, and if they do how much support they will get.

[looping]

I saw some tv footage of Thaksin in London yesterday, walking along in the rain, had to laugh!

[A_Traveller]

What I find intriguing here is that the court, despite a supposedly knowledgeable poster calling it 'drivel, argued the cases under a strict cogent legal proposition. Further, though this added to the length of the formal reading into the record, each element was described, subjected to analysis, and placed into forensic context.

I have spoken today {and during the reading} with a number of individuals who, whilst in some cases not agreeing with the verdict, find it difficult to argue against the logic of the Tribunal decision making process.

Oddly enough I've not spoken to any who didn't understand it, nor found it unreasonably complex to follow.

Regards