Criticising Local Businesses

[p1p]

As a career ex-restaurateur in CM and elsewhere (and possibly to become one again.) I am bemused to see people trying to say that criticism of businesses/restaurants/shops etc should be discouraged because "the business may suffer!" Personally, and from my own experience over 30 or so years, I find this view to be totally untenable. I have always needed feedback in all of my businesses and it does not matter whether that feedback is in a public forum such as TV or in print or in private. If it is in a public forum, at least I will regard it as more of a kick up the @rse to pull my thumb out and make improvements.

Regarding businesses in Chiang Mai; I personally feel that I want to be informed about places by people who have been there. I may not agree with the opinion of them all, but I find feedback to be invaluable when I am planning where to spend my few spare Baht. I will continue to post when I find good places and will mostly refrain from posting about places that are less than good unless I feel they are being lauded in a manner I have experienced to not be fully justified.

We all have different tastes and budgets. I know I personally have champagne tastes, whereas my budget is currently for something like tap water. So information, critique and feedback is extremely important to me.

How does everybody else feel about this?

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that most of us want to help "bad " businesses survive.

I think we are more worried about the owners of bad businesses spreading false rumors about "good" busineses, because they can't compete with them, or just plain nasty people making up lies about businesses that are owned by people that they have something against, because no one knows who they really are and they can say anything they want and pretend to be quite sincere about it.

This is one of the bad things about the internet.

[p1p]

I don't think that most of us want to help "bad " businesses survive.

I think we are more worried about the owners of bad businesses spreading false rumors about "good" busineses, because they can't compete with them, or just plain nasty people making up lies about businesses that are owned by people that they have something against, because no one knows who they really are and they can say anything they want and pretend to be quite sincere about it.

This is one of the bad things about the internet.

I don't think that is a realistic possibility. Whoever has a bad business would suffer far more by doing so.

If we look at shoe shops as a silly example:

Shytty Shop "A" posts a bad review about Bootiful Shop "B". Shop "B"'s many satisfied customers would be sure to post comparitives between "A" and "B", thus pushing "A" deeper into the doggie poo. It has always happened that way, and will continue to do so, whether you sell food, shoes or, god forbid, books!

[Crow Boy]

As a career ex-restaurateur in CM and elsewhere (and possibly to become one again.) I am bemused to see people trying to say that criticism of businesses/restaurants/shops etc should be discouraged because "the business may suffer!" Personally, and from my own experience over 30 or so years, I find this view to be totally untenable. I have always needed feedback in all of my businesses and it does not matter whether that feedback is in a public forum such as TV or in print or in private. If it is in a public forum, at least I will regard it as more of a kick up the @rse to pull my thumb out and make improvements.

I think that criticism when informed and without prior agenda is a valid form of communication. I had a bar in Samuii and we noted the things about us that our customers didn't like or wanted changed. Some we discarded as impractical such as carrying a large stock of imported beers or putting in a whole restaurant. But even so those suggestions formed the seed for doing it somewhere else so were not a waste of time or effort. I remember on occasion having some guy tell me in great detail why my bar was crap compared to what he used to run but decided to ignore most of it as a drunken rant. Other times I had customers not come back and on a couple of occasions I ran across them (Samuii is not that big to make it easy to avoid people good and bad). I asked them why and again in about 50% of the cases they had a valid reason which triggered us to change things.

Regarding businesses in Chiang Mai; I personally feel that I want to be informed about places by people who have been there. I may not agree with the opinion of them all, but I find feedback to be invaluable when I am planning where to spend my few spare Baht. I will continue to post when I find good places and will mostly refrain from posting about places that are less than good unless I feel they are being lauded in a manner I have experienced to not be fully justified.

I look at reviews from a fairly strict basis - do I know the person reviewing from other postings. If I have a level of trust in their opinion I will check it out for myself. It was actually UG and AussieThaid talking about the Duke that caused me to got there only a couple of months ago. Until then I had thought it overpriced and poor quality. I am not a rabid supported of the place but I like everything I have eaten there on the exactly 4 times I have had a meal in the two sites. Dave is not going to lose any sleep if I don't go there again but I will because I enjoyed my meal. Other places such as the Salsa kitchen came from a comment made by UG (and yes the ribs are really good). Other places you have mentioned have triggered me to try them and I agree with your comments that the food was good.

We all have different tastes and budgets. I know I personally have champagne tastes, whereas my budget is currently for something like tap water. So information, critique and feedback is extremely important to me.

I don't have the financial means to splash around money on a so so meal and to be blunt when I did it still irritated me to spend good money on something I didn't think worth it. I am happy to (occasionally) spend a lot of money on a really nice meal but I normally spend 20-40Baht on something Thai. My farung food deal is about once a fortnight so if I am flipping 500Baht on a rib eye steak it had better be pretty good or I will be very annoyed.

How does everybody else feel about this?

I personally doubt if a comment of mine would drive people away from a restaurant unless I said I was taking over the cooking duties. I think any restaurant will stand on its own hind feet and make it or break it on its own merits, however I think there are people with more influence than me who can make a dent in someones business especially if they are starting up and haven't made an established clientelle.

The one thing I don't like is what I look at as advertorials but unknowns who suddenly appear with 1 post to their name and start a new plug er correction thread such as "Mike has a new restaurant and oh dude it is really rockin' and youse all will have to come on down and check it out and btw here is all the prices, location map, franchise information etc"

In the one that popped up this week re Paradise pizza it is almost the opposite but has had the same effect. One "disapointed" customer who no one knows jumps in with a thread that the pizza was disapointing and suddenly 793 CM residents get involved in a five page thread which gives the guy a marketing boost just in time for the weekend during a slow season. I didn't even know where the shop was in the first place and the thing is it has worked in his favour because now I will quite likely drop in to check it out.

CB

[p1p]

The one thing I don't like is what I look at as advertorials but unknowns who suddenly appear with 1 post to their name and start a new plug or correction thread such as "Mike has a new restaurant and oh dude it is really rockin' and youse all will have to come on down and check it out and btw here is all the prices, location map, franchise information etc"

Couldn't agree more in some cases. If they are just informational I think it is okay - ie: "George is opening a new shoeshop on XYZ street on the 5th." If they are obvious advertorials, glorifying a place, and posted in more than one thread as happens at times, this is spamming, pure and simple. I'm afraid as a mod I tend to give them pretty short shrift and consign straight to the bin.

[Austhaied]

I have and will never slag anyones business off on the net. But i will stand up for someone that IS being slagged (if i don't think it's warranted), hence last nights Para Pizza thread. But really i don't give a <deleted>..

Where's the beer ?

[miltonbentley]

I agree with P1P that businesses need criticism in order to meet the standards that customers expect. No business anywhere is perfect and there is always room for improvement. However criticism should be constructive and, if well intentioned, should be made privately rather than aired in public - at least initially. Good businesses that respond to criticism have a better chance of trading successfully as shown by P1P's Fay Maschler story which he posted a while back. (I enjoyed that by the way!)

My concern about posts on an anonymous internet forum. is that the motives of the poster may be wholly vindictive, totally unconstructive and have a severe negative impact on someones livelihood. While the majority of readers on a forum may choose to ignore something negative and even try to counterbalance by posting something positive the damage has to some extent been done. When a restaurant critic writes a review they are accountable for what they write. when someone posts on an internet forum they are not, particularly, as in the case of the Paradise Pizza thread, they are a total newbie with no track record.

I want to write more but I have cutomers to attend to and I don't want them writing 'that MB spends all his ime on the computer instead of caring for his customers' so I'd better go and do some work and may return to my theme tomorrow.

[lannarebirth]

Oops! disregard the one yes vote. I saw the header, "Is on-line Criticism of local businesses justified?" and agreed, thinking that was the poll question. Didn't see the follow up.

Anyhow, it's true that someone with malicious intent could carry out a vendetta aginst a business, but I think most thinking members take all reviews, both good and bad, with a grain of salt. As far as Paradise Pizza goes, I'd like to know where it is, so I can try it myself. Still looking for a great pizza in Chiang Mai.

[Ulysses G.]

I agree with P1P that businesses need criticism in order to meet the standards that customers expect.

The only real criticism I get from customers is that people who are selling books want me to pay more for them, and people who are buying books want me to sell them cheaper.

It is not easy to do both.

[Austhaied]

Oops! disregard the one yes vote. I saw the header, "Is on-line Criticism of local businesses justified?" and agreed, thinking that was the poll question. Didn't see the follow up.

Anyhow, it's true that someone with malicious intent could carry out a vendetta aginst a business, but I think most thinking members take all reviews, both good and bad, with a grain of salt. As far as Paradise Pizza goes, I'd like to know where it is, so I can try it myself. Still looking for a great pizza in Chiang Mai.

Paradise Pizza is on Ratchawithi Rd almost opposite the UN Irish Pub. 39 baht per slice,or you can order a whole one, standard toppings, fairly thick crust and plenty of cheese. Friday nights are pizza nights for our family so i thought i would try it for myself, rather that just ignore them due to someones complaint.

Not as good as Dukes (IMO), but OK just the same. My 5 year old son seemed to like it though..

Edited June 1, 2007 by Austhaied

[FolkGuitar]

I don't think that most of us want to help "bad " businesses survive.

I think we are more worried about the owners of bad businesses spreading false rumors about "good" businesses, because they can't compete with them, or just plain nasty people making up lies about businesses that are owned by people that they have something against, because no one knows who they really are and they can say anything they want and pretend to be quite sincere about it.

This is one of the bad things about the Internet.

One rather notorious businessman in Chiang Mai who owned a Yogurt business spent so much of his time bad mouthing his competition with false rumors, slinging racial slurs about her all over the Internet, as well as cursing out local magazine owners and other business people, again over the Internet, that he no longer owns his business. He had to sell out at fire-sale prices as people didn't want to support him any longer. The irony is that his product wasn't bad at all. He was. And people reacted to that.

The Folk Musician

[sceadugenga]

I don't think it matters what is said about businesses on line. I personally ignore it, I read it but can smell spite and personal issues at a hundred paces, ditto personal plugs.

It's huge in the expat scene in Thailand, expat politics here make the Greens look like Joe Stalin.

I think a lot of guys come here that can't make it at home and then blame Thailand, other expats etc when they can't make it here. Some do ok, some break even.... they all blame someone else when things go wrong.

Me, I came for the women, and one got me. Wasn't my fault.

[endure]

I don't think that most of us want to help "bad " businesses survive.

I think we are more worried about the owners of bad businesses spreading false rumors about "good" businesses, because they can't compete with them, or just plain nasty people making up lies about businesses that are owned by people that they have something against, because no one knows who they really are and they can say anything they want and pretend to be quite sincere about it.

This is one of the bad things about the Internet.

One rather notorious businessman in Chiang Mai who owned a Yogurt business spent so much of his time bad mouthing his competition with false rumors, slinging racial slurs about her all over the Internet, as well as cursing out local magazine owners and other business people, again over the Internet, that he no longer owns his business. He had to sell out at fire-sale prices as people didn't want to support him any longer. The irony is that his product wasn't bad at all. He was. And people reacted to that.

The Folk Musician

It did make for entertaining reading on soc.culture.thai though

[mcgriffith]

If anything, a bad posting about a place in a perverse way stimulates me (and no doubt many others) to actually go try it out, as was noted in a post above.

I take with more than a grain of salt what people post on this forum regarding food. It must be the most highly subjective subject in the world, right up there with opinions of female/male attractiveness, etc.

I have owned retail businesses, and have a background in advertising and marketing. The power of the printed word can sometimes be perceived as a very strong boon, or threat, to a business owner who is trying his/her best to do a good job for the business and customers.

I say bring it on. This is a forum, and is largely self-regulating by the members, with oversight from the mods.

Someone new with few postings who posts an "advertorial" or conversely slams a business- I don't think it has an effect.

Sort of like the gnat vs. elephant....

[Physherman]

I don't think that most of us want to help "bad " businesses survive.

I think we are more worried about the owners of bad businesses spreading false rumors about "good" businesses, because they can't compete with them, or just plain nasty people making up lies about businesses that are owned by people that they have something against, because no one knows who they really are and they can say anything they want and pretend to be quite sincere about it.

This is one of the bad things about the Internet.

One rather notorious businessman in Chiang Mai who owned a Yogurt business spent so much of his time bad mouthing his competition with false rumors, slinging racial slurs about her all over the Internet, as well as cursing out local magazine owners and other business people, again over the Internet, that he no longer owns his business. He had to sell out at fire-sale prices as people didn't want to support him any longer. The irony is that his product wasn't bad at all. He was. And people reacted to that.

The Folk Musician

It did make for entertaining reading on soc.culture.thai though

I blanch at your concept of entertainment. Do you usually find racism, anti-semitism, and bigotry entertaining?

Would you prefer Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, or Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Disney World as a place to take your kids for entertainment? Entertaining reading? My God, I really hope that you were making an attempt at humor and didn't mean what you said.

The Fly Fisherman

[cdnvic]

I agree with P1P that businesses need criticism in order to meet the standards that customers expect.

The only real criticism I get from customers is that people who are selling books want me to pay more for them, and people who are buying books want me to sell them cheaper.

It is not easy to do both.

Conversation in a bookshop I used to frequent often:

Unhappy Seller: You're just going to double the price and sell it to someone else.

Shop Owner: No, I actually sell it for the same price I buy them. I just deduct the storage fee from the seller's share. If you track down the buyer, you can't sort the rest out with him.

[p1p]

I have made a series of posts invisible, some giving people's real names, & others referring to them.

The forum frowns on such posts. Everybody is entitled to their privacy. Future examples will be dealt with somewhat more severely.

[meadish_sweetball]

More posts have been erased.

Thaivisa will not be the forum for anyone to continue any conflicts or vent any animosity they have against somebody else.

Please recheck the topic of this thread before posting.

[Pim Kemasingki]

Just out of curiosity (sorry if this is a no no, you do have some stringent forum rules - quite rightly - I am still trying to figure out) but when did the yoghurt business go under? Is he no loner involved? As you said, the product ain't bad, but one doesn't want to support meanness. Must visit soc.cult.thai again, its been a while.

[p1p]

Just out of curiosity (sorry if this is a no no, you do have some stringent forum rules - quite rightly - I am still trying to figure out) but when did the yoghurt business go under? Is he no loner involved? As you said, the product ain't bad, but one doesn't want to support meanness. Must visit soc.cult.thai again, its been a while.

I don't know if it has gone down or if he sold it. I was offered the business some two years ago and was given the impression he disposed of it shortly thereafter.

I still see the product in Rimping.

[Physherman]

Just out of curiosity (sorry if this is a no no, you do have some stringent forum rules - quite rightly - I am still trying to figure out) but when did the yoghurt business go under? Is he no loner involved? As you said, the product ain't bad, but one doesn't want to support meanness. Must visit soc.cult.thai again, its been a while.

I don't know if it has gone down or if he sold it. I was offered the business some two years ago and was given the impression he disposed of it shortly thereafter.

I still see the product in Rimping.

The business was sold a few months ago for just under 1 mil, including name, machinery, and vehicles. The previous figurehead owner is no longer part of the business, although claims to be so in various news groups. The product line will continue to be sold in the same venues and may even expand now. However, until people are aware that the previous figurehead is no longer involved, the business will continue to decrease. Already the shelf space allocated for it has shrunk to half of what it once was.

The Fly Fisherman

[chuchok]

Are you happy to support businesses with bad product/service/ambience?

Yes [ 1 ]** [2.33%]

No [ 33 ] ** [76.74%]

Who gives a <deleted>. Where's the beer? [ 9 ] ** [20.93%]

Well here is the answer to the op.

personel stuff should be left out,but saying that a particular owner of say a bar "loves the sound of his on voice etc" should be ok.just the same as saying that "xyz bar serves soggy chips" (many of the British on the forum might just like that too..... )

[chobthum]

Just out of curiosity (sorry if this is a no no, you do have some stringent forum rules - quite rightly - I am still trying to figure out) but when did the yoghurt business go under? Is he no loner involved? As you said, the product ain't bad, but one doesn't want to support meanness. Must visit soc.cult.thai again, its been a while.

I don't know if it has gone down or if he sold it. I was offered the business some two years ago and was given the impression he disposed of it shortly thereafter.

I still see the product in Rimping.

The business was sold a few months ago for just under 1 mil, including name, machinery, and vehicles. The previous figurehead owner is no longer part of the business, although claims to be so in various news groups. The product line will continue to be sold in the same venues and may even expand now. However, until people are aware that the previous figurehead is no longer involved, the business will continue to decrease. Already the shelf space allocated for it has shrunk to half of what it once was.

The Fly Fisherman

Fly Fisherman, where did you get the info on this yoghurt biz?

Are you sure about the settlement price?

Just whant to know,

N.C.

[cnxmike]

"I blanch at your concept of entertainment. Do you usually find racism, anti-semitism, and bigotry entertaining?

Would you prefer Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, or Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Disney World as a place to take your kids for entertainment? Entertaining reading? My God, I really hope that you were making an attempt at humor and didn't mean what you said.

The Fly Fisherman "

Come on, get real. This is the Chiang Mai forum, not the Politically Correct forum. Is there a chance to write something without you come up with Auschwitz? Do you really compare a negative critic about a certain restaurant with Auschwitz ? My god, I came to Thailand to escape these fools, but they are everywhere.

[peter991]

I don't know how long this has been going on, but I want to relate what I consider a very bad business practice which is going on in Chang Mai at the moment.

I am booked in at a Chang Mai Guest House/Hostel later this month. I booked three months ago and received a phone call from the owner on 19 October, asking me if I had changed my booking as I failed to arrive.

I checked my booking and I am definitely booked to arrive on 18 November. I informed the owner and he apologised as he had filed my booking under October and not November.

I thought this was the end of the matter, but he cautioned me that he had been losing a lot of business lately as taxi drivers meeting new arrivals at Chang Mai Airport were telling guests they could not be taken to his Guest House/Hostel as it had been closed.

Not knowing any better, his guests were being taken to other Guest Houses/Hostels - obviously these accommodations were paying a commission to taxi drivers.

This, to me, is a new low. We have all heard of new arrivals to Thailand being told by Bangkok tuk-tuk and taxi drivers that certain tourist attractions are closed for the day - and then being taken elsewhere. This is the first time I have heard of the practice affecting hotels, guest houses and hostels in Chang Mai.

Peter

[ThaiPauly]

If thats true...its awful.

Maybee the owner should consider picking up his guests from the station as thats where most who use Tuk-tuks land in CM

[FolkGuitar]

"I blanch at your concept of entertainment. Do you usually find racism, anti-semitism, and bigotry entertaining?

Would you prefer Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, or Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Disney World as a place to take your kids for entertainment? Entertaining reading? My God, I really hope that you were making an attempt at humor and didn't mean what you said.

The Fly Fisherman "

Come on, get real. This is the Chiang Mai forum, not the Politically Correct forum. Is there a chance to write something without you come up with Auschwitz? Do you really compare a negative critic about a certain restaurant with Auschwitz ? My god, I came to Thailand to escape these fools, but they are everywhere.

It's obvious you never actually saw what was written about Jerusalem Falafel Restaurant by their competition, so I won't make any comments about your calling the original poster a fool.

I saw it. I wouldn't call it a matter of being PC.

Words such as "jew b!tch," "kike," and "mocky," are not 'negative criticisms' about a restaurant. Insisting that the owner of a Kosher restaurant sell 'pig's feet' or 'bacon' is not negative criticism or a restaurant, nor is it a matter of being 'Politically correct.' It is the same religious bigotry that existed in Germany during the war years. I'm sure you now concur.

I'd like to be just as sure that you don't condone such actions....

[cmsally]

I don't know how long this has been going on, but I want to relate what I consider a very bad business practice which is going on in Chang Mai at the moment.

I am booked in at a Chang Mai Guest House/Hostel later this month. I booked three months ago and received a phone call from the owner on 19 October, asking me if I had changed my booking as I failed to arrive.

I checked my booking and I am definitely booked to arrive on 18 November. I informed the owner and he apologised as he had filed my booking under October and not November.

I thought this was the end of the matter, but he cautioned me that he had been losing a lot of business lately as taxi drivers meeting new arrivals at Chang Mai Airport were telling guests they could not be taken to his Guest House/Hostel as it had been closed.

Not knowing any better, his guests were being taken to other Guest Houses/Hostels - obviously these accommodations were paying a commission to taxi drivers.

This, to me, is a new low. We have all heard of new arrivals to Thailand being told by Bangkok tuk-tuk and taxi drivers that certain tourist attractions are closed for the day - and then being taken elsewhere. This is the first time I have heard of the practice affecting hotels, guest houses and hostels in Chang Mai.

Peter

This practice has been going on for years and still goes on. Some of the stories they make up are pretty amazing. All so that they can entice people off to where they make a large commission.

[mcgriffith]

I try not to criticise any local business. I just try to patronise all the local businesses.

The alternative is flying to BKK for a baguette....

As far as the other issue....don't know how a 6 month old dormant topic got a revival, but I will say that I miss the Chiang Mai Pickle King's small gherkins that I used to buy at the old Rimping....

Not a big hummus or baba ghanoush fan, but Jerusalem Falafel does a good job with that, too.

It's all good in the 'hood, my brothas 'n sisters....

[canadiangirl]

How does everybody else feel about this?

I'm fine with criticizing businesses, whether or not it hurts them. It's called capitalism -- y'know? -- based on the idea that competition on the open market encourages players to improve in order to make more money. You're supposed to criticize them, and the smart ones will use that feedback to get better, while the dumb ones will ignore it and probably get worse.

Ok, sometimes customers have unrealistic expectations ("I wanted fried chicken!" "Sir, this is an auto dealership."), and you can't do anything about that, but if the criticism is reasonable, a wise business listens.

I'll patronize a business that annoys me if it's the one closer to my house, or they have something unavailable anywhere else, but in general I avoid bad ones. I don't want them to flourish.

Edited November 4, 2007 by canadiangirl