Who Actually Wants Enlightenment?

[lannarebirth]

I personally believe that "rebirth" is just continuing an old pattern, or starting a new one as your physical life goes on. People who lead good lives usually bring good things upon themselves and their lives become more and more successful, while a person who takes the wrong actions generally has a progressively worse life if they don't change their ways.

If there is an actual life after this one, it's only guesswork, and believing in it requires faith, which in turn feed hope and desire, which is what Buddhism is supposed to eliminate if practised correctly.

I tend to see it as a cycle of consciousness. That cycle can begin or end at any moment in time, not necessariliy when the body dies. I have less clear views on what may happen when the bodt expires, but I'm going to do the best I can to die well, just in case.

[rychrde]

Buddhism has been a huge disappointment for me. I've been to the city temples, the forest monasteries, talked with farang and Thai monks, read the books, watched Buddhism in action from a close vantage point (in the lives of friends and loved ones), and I am left with a very empty, nearly disillusional feel.

I observe a society that's had Buddhism at it's core for hundreds of years, and the level of self-centeredness at every level of personal, social and national interaction far surpasses anything I've seen in the West. The unwritten social maxim of "Do unto others before they do it unto you," the opposite of the Judeo-Christian "Golden Rule," rules a vast amount of relationships here.

In answer to the OP's initial question: I certainly don't want it. I haven't seen any evidence that the pursuit of this "ultimate" level works for this culture. All it can do is produce another hierarchical level, separating the have's from the have-nots, only in a religious context--something that Thailand has too much of, already.

Frankly, the more I learn about Buddhism and watch how it fails to improve the social fabric of Asia, the less it seems to correspond to real life's dilemmas and needs.

Faithless in Isaan,

TT

I share these feelings regarding Buddhism in Thailand. My experiences of Theravada were very limited before coming here, as when I encountered it I just didn't resonate with any of it. Tibetan Buddhism in particular is very very different to Theravada. The few people I have shown Tibetan books, statues and images to here in Thailand are just scared like hel_l and cannot believe it is the same Buddhism! Indeed it isn't.

Re enlightenment, I think the term needs some qualifying. I don't have to hand historical dates etc but in Dzogchen logic training there is much discussion about the different states that can be achieved and the qualities associated with them. I think this is healthy, so that different branches of Buddhism can compare what their enlightenment actually is. Most of my library is in the UK so unfortunately have to resort to generalities. But I remember one evening a small group of us asking one Dzogchen Bon master about his experiences, and he said that reaching enlightenment as a living being did not seem so important from his point of view, what became important was what to do with it! As achieving it is both rare and sought after, for most it is a matter of teaching the same to other beings. Dzogchen also has another form of enlightenment at death, the rainbow body, but that's another subject!!

rych

[rychrde]

Based on this notion I say that "Nibhanna is undescribable so whatever words you use to describe it you can be sure that they are wrong."

Words have meaning in relation to other words, as mental images have relations to other mental images. Without the experience, I don't think one can point at 'enlightenment' and say "there it is!" The christian mystics and alchemists had whole catalogues about what it is not, just to stop us looking in the wrong place - just like Zen koans try to break the logical cycle.

I think I wrote this elsewhere but perhaps worth repeating here. When I was very young I was obsessed with the question of what made me feel like me! After much meditating I managed to achieve some kind of pure mindful state - which felt liberating and like touching the basis of consciousness. This felt like a good place so continued the meditations. This was all done privately, unaided by books or masters or (God forbid!) priests. However, at some point I must have made some kind of mistake in that I wanted to reach this state quickly. I now know the lesson that the state is not something on can aim for or grasp at, but rather comes as a consequence of the practices. Bit of a hard lesson at 7 and 8 years old, which I only recalled many years later.

rych

[jumnien]

This is a good question - who actually wants enlightenment?

In 12-step programs, this comes up in the 6th and 7th step. We are attached to our bad habits and as long as they are not absolutely killing us we tend to cling to them quite strongly. The buddhist path based as it is on strict moral precepts is not immediately appealing. We look for a softer, easier way. Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?

[Ave]

Excellent topic!

In my teenage days I started asking myself 'what is enlightment'? But then, I have hardly ever kept wondering what it is. Simply because I have instinctly felt that it is represented by an indestructible happiness, no matter what happens to me. It's like having an allan key. Once understood and managed - initially with reluctance - to accept that all the things that happen to me entirely depend on my actions and that I should stop blaming people and situations for my life condition, I realised that I could change my environment and make what was once impossible, possible. I started almost immediately to feel at ease with myself and in harmony with my surroundings. It just took me less than a month of sincere and determined chanting to achieve what I thought would take me a lifetime. Life for me finally ceased to be an unsurmountable amount of suffering spiced up by temporary bursts of happiness. The suffering and the everyday challenges are still there but I can handle them with more confidence now.

Enlightment is not, in my opinion, a state of ecstasy or detachment from natural human desires, or that involves the divine intervention of some external entity like some believe (but if it works for them, great!). I just rely on myself to get rid of illusions and try to be in synch with the rest that goes on around me, be in the right place at the right time, getting things to fall into place at last and so far its getting better and better every day. I also agree that words are definitely not enough to express all this. Also, English is not my mother language, therefore I feel the need to include some quotes from somebody far wiser than me to get my opinion across.

I don't believe that enlightment is something supernatural or out of this world that only few elected or lucky ones can reach. On the contrary, according to what I am learning it relates very closely to basic laws of physics. It seems something totally real to me, the truth of reality. An inner life force and complete awareness of the nature of life. I'm not obsessing about reaching the top of this mountain, I'm more interested in what I encounter and learn while I'm climbing it.

Why would most spiritual people want to attain enlightment could probably be because they can raise their life state and use their full human potential. They have decided to stop leading an 'ok' life and started their own human revolution whilst enjoying a great life instead. I don't even think that only Buddhists or religious people in general can follow a ""path"" like this. Great wisdom and true compassion exist among all kinds of people from all walks of life.

Whether there is one or many lives ahead of us one thing is certain: "No one can escape death. Precisely because of this, when people resolve to live at each instant with all their might, to make the present moment shine by living true to themselves and leading truly humane existences, they can summon forth immense strength. At the same time, they can manifest a considerate spirit toward others. Herein lies the mystic nature of life and therefore the middle way. Buddhism is the philisophy that teaches this essential way of life."

I, and so many others who maybe are not even aware of it, want to attain enlightment because we want to give a true meaning to our life and finally resolve the puzzle of life and death that has been bugging us all this time.

"Everyone wants to become happy and get along well with others. No one starts out wanting to be miserable or to live with others in a state of mutual hatred and contempt. In reality, however, we find people living unders just such conditions. Often people tumble down the slope of misfortune due to errors in judment that result from preoccupation with trivialities. They many come into conflict or even start wars with one another over issues that, in the larger scheme of things, are truly insignificant". "It is the prerogative of those experiencing the greatest suffering to become the happiest. Those who work the hardest can develop their lives far more than others. This is the mystic nature of faith". I believe that people who experience a high degree of suffering are the closest to find the allan key that might lead them to religious, or simply spiritual enlightment, if only more of us opened our eyes more widely and kept a seeking mind we would probably be discussing what it's like to be enlightened..