Uefa Condemn Liverpool Supporters As The Worst Behaved In Europe

[EastSaxCol]

C&P BBC

Reds fans labelled Europe's worst

Uefa have criticised Liverpool fans' behaviour

A damning report by European football's governing body says Liverpool fans are the worst-behaved in Europe.

Uefa says Reds fans have been involved in more incidents in Europe during the past four years than any other club.

Ticketless fans caused trouble at May's Champions League final, although the club criticised security at the game.

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "That was just the latest example. What other fans steal tickets from fellow fans or from the hands of children?"

Uefa's report will be handed to sports minister Richard Caborn on Tuesday.

In it, Uefa paints a damning picture of the Anfield club's supporters' behaviour at the Champions League final against AC Milan in Athens, which the Italian side won 2-1.

Gaillard added: "We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there.

"There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report - most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

Liverpool have sent their own report to Uefa complaining about lax security measures at the final.

You must ask yourself why at the Champions League, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans - only the Liverpool fans

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard

A club spokesman said: "The shortcomings in the management of the situation in Athens were apparent to anyone who was there.

"This latest statement from Uefa should not deflect attention from that reality."

Many supporters with forged tickets or no tickets at all managed to gain access to the stadium.

Disorder broke out before kick-off when fans were held back because of congestion outside the ground.

Police told fans going through the penultimate checkpoint to slow down or even stop moving, then riot police formed a line to stop other fans joining queues to move through the checkpoint.

Former Conservative leader and Liverpool fan Michael Howard was at the game and said ticket checks at the stadium were "a joke".

How can Uefa choose a football ground without a turnstile - just a metal gate that opens - its just not football is it?"

Liverpool fanzine editor Andy Knott

Fans were already aggrieved over Uefa's ticket allocation for the Champions League final, with the governing body making 17,000 tickets available to each club for a stadium that had a capacity of 63,000.

Of those tickets, Liverpool were able to make just 11,000 available to fans because of obligations to sponsors and former players.

But Gaillard said: "You must ask yourself why at the same match, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans - only the Liverpool fans."

Andy Knott from the Liverpool fanzine Red All Over told BBC Radio Five Live that both the fans and the authorities were to blame for what happened in Europe this season.

He said: "It's a culmination of everything. The Liverpool fans weren't innocent and a lot of them have got to have a look at themselves and take that into account.

"But at the same time Uefa have got to look at it and instead of trying to give token games to people with big stadiums, they've got to do it in a proper way.

"I mean how you can have a football ground without a turnstile - where it's just a metal gate that opens and you walk through - its just not football is it?"

[EastSaxCol]

My intention for posting this is maybe to promote debate, or at least to be of interest. And not to attract part-time abusers, e.g 'farangconnection'.

[highchol]

well certainly no chance of WHU fans being voted the worst in europe is there!

[scousemouse]

My intention for posting this is maybe to promote debate, or at least to be of interest. And not to attract part-time abusers, e.g 'farangconnection'.

I have been waiting for this thread to start....... .

Glad it was you who started it hammer and not someone-else ( no names for now , that can wait !! ).

My proper reply will be coming soon .

[EastSaxCol]

well certainly no chance of WHU fans being voted the worst in europe is there!

Fact 1. We were in Europe this year. With no problems

Fact 2. I give it another two seasons until we're playing in Europe again

Fact 3. Some will remember a European match in the 80's having to be played behind closed doors The Boyelyn. But those kind of days are well gone - I hope.

[Tarragona]

It would be interesting to know what exactly the 25 incidents include - flag stealing is such a terrible crime, isn't it?

What Liverpool fans have not been involved in over the last couple of years (courtesy of the Liverpool Echo):

# On February 2 a police officer was killed in Sicily when fans rioted during a derby match between Catania and Palermo.

# On November 24, 2006, a French police officer shot dead a Paris-Saint Germain football fan after being turned on by a mob during racist violence that followed the team's defeat by Israeli side Hapoel Tel-Aviv.

# On Saturday night a referee was attacked on the pitch during an international match between Sweden and Denmark. The game had to be abandoned.

# On September 15, 2004, Anders Frisk was forced to abandon the Champions League match between AS Roma and Dinamo Kiev after he was felled by a lighter thrown from the stands.

# On April 4 this year 12 Manchester United fans ended up in hospital after Italian Ultra hooligans ran riot around the Roma v United Champions League quarter final.

But right, Liverpool's fans are the worst.

Funny though, one week Gaillard and UEFA are praising Liverpool fans (and note the awards they've dished out to Liverpool fans since 2001) - then when they've screwed up they have a quick change. And Gaillard's tabloid, inflammatory comments are hardly worthy of the spokesman for a major European organization just in the style of language he uses. And there are reports that Milan fans were on the receiving end of baton charges and the like from the Greek police.

UEFA are a corrupt organization getting their excuses in early. Go on any Liverpool fan site to see what the real fans thought of those bunking in. No excuses for that.

But to suddenly come up with 25 incidents, unrelated to that game by the way, when you're taking some flak for your handling of the game is rather convenient. And if UEFA really had this dossier and knew Liverpool fans were evil scumbags, why assure one and all that there would be no problems and not bother taking any precautions.

Some of the support I'm hearing for Liverpool over this, strangely, is coming from hardcore Man U fans. They know the score here and have been on the receiving end themselves.

[highchol]

well certainly no chance of WHU fans being voted the worst in europe is there!

Fact 1. We were in Europe this year. With no problems

Fact 2. I give it another two seasons until we're playing in Europe again

Fact 3. Some will remember a European match in the 80's having to be played behind closed doors The Boyelyn. But those kind of days are well gone - I hope.

Fact 1. You are certainly in europe but with a big PROBLEM.

Uncle sepp and eufa boys are on the case.

The rumour is that WHU will be invited to play in the African competition after there creditworthy attempt at being Cheetahs!....

[EastSaxCol]

It would be interesting to know what exactly the 25 incidents include - flag stealing is such a terrible crime, isn't it?

Can't remember if it's cited above. But stealing tickets out of kids hands , now that really is the pits.

It's no use deflecting blame by saying ManU fans did this, or were involved in this. The fact is that what's happened in Europe, especially in Greece, was for the large part the responsibility of Liverpool supporters. I'm not saying that there wasn't other factors involved - as quite clearly there was.

But when you get Liverpool supporters fighting Liverpool supporters over tickets, then it's all got out completely of hand.

There obviously isn't solidarity amongst supporters when a club has that large a following. And I'm afraid recent events have further tarnished your own reputation abroad - and by association - us all.

[EastSaxCol]

Fact 1. You are certainly in europe but with a big PROBLEM.

Uncle sepp and eufa boys are on the case.

The rumour is that WHU will be invited to play in the African competition after there creditworthy attempt at being Cheetahs!....

Oh dear. If you can't get a life, then do try and wise up on the facts. The credit lies in admitting responsibility and being duly punished. End of. Unless you can cite any other precident that is ???

The discredit lies in not being able to accept that it's what we did on the pitch that counted at the end of the day.

And if you really think that anything further will happen to West Ham, then dream on boy ...dream on.

[kopite]

It would be interesting to know what exactly the 25 incidents include - flag stealing is such a terrible crime, isn't it?

Can't remember if it's cited above. But stealing tickets out of kids hands , now that really is the pits.

It's no use deflecting blame by saying ManU fans did this, or were involved in this. The fact is that what's happened in Europe, especially in Greece, was for the large part the responsibility of Liverpool supporters. I'm not saying that there wasn't other factors involved - as quite clearly there was.

But when you get Liverpool supporters fighting Liverpool supporters over tickets, then it's all got out completely of hand.

There obviously isn't solidarity amongst supporters when a club has that large a following. And I'm afraid recent events have further tarnished your own reputation abroad - and by association - us all.

west ham are angels of course?

ive seen west ham stab one of their own at an england away because he had the audacity to share a flag with his chelsea brother. cas pennant? bill gardner? ring any bells? the endless books?

are we any better? NO. are the mancs? NO. chelseas nazi's? again NO.

this final was overtaken with scallies who dont go to the games. just went for the day. however there is an element to our support who do cause trouble.

but no-one took a ticket off "a kid". considering the police was asking fans to hold their ticket high above their head, i dont think any parent with a head would of given a 8-15 year old a tciket to do the same. dont be so naive. the internet is a great source of knowledge but also lies.

there are problems within our support, but that is the same as west ham, chelsea, millwall, manc, leeds, stoke etc...

what happened in athens and lille, and with spurs has only brought the "english disease"

back into the publics mornings papers.

i am only glad that the fans of benfica, celtic, AC Milan and Barcelona are starting their own campaigns in support of reds against the useless organization of UEFA.

happy hammer, sorry if this seems as a rant but ive had a few malts lad. i look forward to a healthy discussion.

[Tarragona]

Can't remember if it's cited above. But stealing tickets out of kids hands , now that really is the pits.

Yes, it is. And I don't know any Liverpool fans who disagree.

Of course there were dozens of young kids in Athens who had tickets taken out of their hands. Because William Gaillard said it, so it must be true. I've read one eye witness report of a father with a kid having his tickets taken, but let's not get in the way of a good tabloid headline. If he'd talked about stealing from other fans, rather than just kids, he'd have been on more solid ground. His choice of words betrays his agenda. There were 7 arrests made from 30-40,000 fans.

The issue that UEFA have created, and now backtracked on incidentally, and that you have brought up in the OP, says that Liverpool fans are the worst in Europe. There was almost no trouble in Athens apart from the incident at the stadium. Where are the media pictures of Reds singing together with Milan fans around the city after the game? Not much of a story I suppose. At least the Greek media picked up on the dozens of Reds who visited the memorial to the Olympiakos fans who died in a stadium disaster.

And I'll think you'll find that Liverpool fans still have one of the best reputations around Europe, amongst the clubs and fans (and police forces) that they've visited at least - if not the people sat at home reading the reports from UEFA.

[Tarragona]

http://in.today.reuters.com/News/newsArtic...ia-301458-1.xml

Liverpool won't face sanctions over final - report

Mon Jun 4, 2007 11:22 PM IST

By Darren Ennis

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Liverpool will not face any sanctions by UEFA following a report into security problems at last month's Champion League Final, senior sources at European soccer's governing body said on Monday.

Citing the document, to be submitted to British sports minister Richard Caborn on Tuesday, sources confirmed no action will be taken against the English club, despite evidence that a number of Liverpool fans were to blame for the trouble in Athens.

"The report draws up some proposals, not sanctions. There will be no disciplinary action taken against Liverpool," one UEFA source told Reuters.

UEFA previously blamed Liverpool fans with forged tickets or those with no ticket for forcing their way into Athens' Olympic Stadium on May 23 for the match against AC Milan, while dozens of fans with genuine tickets were refused entry.

When Liverpool fans tried to enter the stadium, the situation threatened to escalate out of control and Greek police fired tear gas and used batons.

But although the report acknowledges that the trouble "was at the Liverpool end" and their opponents "were not to blame", it does not point the finger at the club or the majority of its fans.

"The report is more of a narrative on what happened from start to finish and proposes how to deal with it better in the future such as better police cooperation and a better strategy," another source said.

Ironically, the report will highlight the benefits of police tactics already used by British police forces at soccer matches, the source said.

BLAME GAME

UEFA, Liverpool and British authorities will hope news of the report's contents will calm tensions in the aftermath of the match which has led to a war of words over who was to blame for the trouble.

The atmosphere worsened ahead of Tuesday's report when a top UEFA official indicated that the document would identify Liverpool as a problem club, pointing to 25 incidents involving the English club.

However, both UEFA and British government officials said they were not seeking a confrontation when Caborn meets UEFA President Michel Platini on Tuesday in Brussels.

Caborn called on Monday for "an end to the blame game".

"This is not about UEFA versus Liverpool or UEFA versus England fans, we must all stop playing the blame game and stop pointing fingers at people," he told Reuters.

William Gaillard, advisor to UEFA President Michel Platini and the official at the centre of the dispute, told Reuters:

"Yes the troublemakers were Liverpool fans, but these were a minority of Liverpool fans. As I said the day after the final, 99 percent of Liverpool fans are fine, but this minority causes the problems.

"They need to be taught that attending a game is not a right it is a privilege which you must pay for. You can't take a tube in London for instance without for a proper ticket."

GATES OPENED

The report will say there was a moment of panic when the Greek police rightly opened the gates to prevent further trouble, stating that "a few hundred of the many thousands of supporters took the law into their own hands".

"The report says Liverpool stewards, who are capable at home in their own stadium, were unable to be influential on the night," the source said,

The UEFA document also includes evidence from various Liverpool fans with legitimate tickets who were forced to sit on each other's laps -- or stand up -- as a result of forged duplicate tickets.

A second report and more detailed report will be collated and sent to Britain's Home Office in the coming weeks, UEFA said.

It confirmed that a probe was also continuing into how around 800 Liverpool supporters got tickets in the Milan end which were known to be distributed to AC Milan.

[lampard10]

well certainly no chance of WHU fans being voted the worst in europe is there!

That wasn't me...........................................................And I thought Ajax fans were the worst in Europe.

[lampard10]

Fact 1. You are certainly in europe but with a big PROBLEM.

Uncle sepp and eufa boys are on the case.

The rumour is that WHU will be invited to play in the African competition after there creditworthy attempt at being Cheetahs!....

And wots wrong wid the Italian league?????????????????

[farangconnection]

My intention for posting this is maybe to promote debate, or at least to be of interest. And not to attract part-time abusers, e.g 'farangconnection'.

Oh dear.........a rather childish attempt at winding up. Still boys will be boys.

[Tarragona]

Des Kelly, Daily Mail

Cheap shot from a cowardly crew

00:33am 5th June 2007

Hand me a felt pen. If UEFA want to tag Liverpool fans as the worst in Europe then it is only right they should be rewarded for this lazy insult with a cheap label of their own. And here it is: "The biggest cowards in football."

See how easy it is to throw insults around? Stung by criticism of the ticketing arrangements and chaotic crowd control at the Champions League Final in Athens, Michel Platini's administration has proved to be astonishingly unstatesmanlike with its response.

Rather than examine the problems like a sensible governing body should, UEFA decided to stamp their feet, squeal "it's so unfair!" and trot out deliberately sensationalist claptrap to try to divert attention elsewhere.

The communications director of European football, William Gaillard, actually said this about the followers of Liverpool: "What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?"

Dunno William. But a few, I'd guess. Even if a couple of kids did have their tickets robbed on the night, let's compare this sensationalist, unsubstantiated and, frankly, silly accusation with some of the crimes that have been perpetrated by the followers of a few other teams across Europe recently.

I'm thinking specifically about the murder of a policeman at an Italian stadium when a homemade bomb blew up in his face.

Then there was the French gendarme almost killed by German thugs. The routine and quite blatant racism at some Spanish and Eastern European grounds, a blight that UEFA have feebly failed to tackle.

The tendency of the Roman riot squad to beat visiting supporters senseless for no obvious reason. The attack on a referee in Denmark this week. I could go on.

When judged against that pile of paperwork sitting in UEFA's file marked "Trouble", I'd say snatching a ticket from some nipper might rank as a relatively minor offence. But Gaillard appears peculiarly keen to hype up any English problem.

He adds: "There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report. Most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

This is an interesting claim.

William has obviously never tried to slip away from a Lazio game while trying to avoid the inconvenience of a sharp blade in the buttock.

Nor can he have danced through the streets of Marseilles as residents added a splash of local colour by throwing bottles.

But what about those 25 incidents said by UEFA to involve Liverpool over the past four years? We await the details.

English football will have the chance to verify the substance of these charges when the "undercover report" is handed to Sports Minister Richard Caborn today.

If many prove to be as minor as his ticket- snatching accusation then Gaillard had better look out. His job is in jeopardy, or at least it should be.

Particularly as he made this rather contradictory pronouncement before the Champions League Final: "The two groups of supporters have a tradition of good behaviour and at this point we are expecting that to continue."

A tradition of good behaviour or the worst in Europe? He just can't make his mind up. Perhaps William is just overwrought and in need of a lie down in a darkened room. For 20 years or so.

Let me make one thing clear. Nobody in their right mind doubts Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the disturbances in Athens.

Too many turned up without tickets, some tried to bribe, fake, cheat and steal their way into the ground, even if it meant that a fellow supporter would lose their own legitimate place.

Sadly, like all big clubs, Liverpool has its fair share of scumbags. It also has more than its reasonable quota of people who believe it is their divine right to see the game by whatever means possible.

This is not a new phenomenon. As the crowds hustled towards the old Wembley 18 years ago, I watched one ticketless Liverpool fan vault over the barrier and make a run for it.

Three more were busy scrambling up the outside wall, attempting to break in through the stairwell above.

I vividly remember these scenes even now for one particular reason.

It happened at the FA Cup Final on Saturday, May 20, 1989. Thirty five days after Hillsborough.

With the emotional wounds of that day still horribly raw for so many people, it seemed inconceivable to me that a few would be so selfish when Merseyside was gathering to offer its respects.

I was amazed at their stupidity, their insensitivity. But it would have been ridiculous and lazy to talk about "Liverpool fans shaming the club".

It was one knot of irresponsible idiots, cretins who were completely unrepresentative of the mood of the city.

Yet, spin forward nearly two decades and UEFA believe they are justified in using the same kind of warped logic to ###### an entire club. Why? Because they must know they are at least as culpable for the problems and want to shift the blame.

UEFA's distribution of the tickets was woefully inadequate, creating an unprecedented demand. The stadium itself was ill-equipped to handle such a high-profile event - it had no turnstiles for starters.

The policing and security was said by most observers to be haphazard at best, panicked and belligerent at worst.

In this kind of environment, no wonder chaos reigned; no wonder fans with tickets found they were excluded; no wonder some cheats tried to exploit this lack of order.

Milan didn't even sell their ticket allocation. Just imagine the scenario if two English clubs had made the final and Manchester United had played Liverpool instead?

Cheap as they were, the effects of Gaillard's remarks are potentially catastrophic. With one sloppy, stupid statement he has increased the temperature right across Europe.

Supporters from Liverpool or any other English club travelling abroad can now expect to be met by an even greater level of hostility, to be herded and detained like cattle, baton-charged, penned in and locked in their coaches or trains.

Good or bad, it doesn't matter. Liverpool fans are "the worst". English fans are the "worst". So they 'deserve' what they get.

Sometimes it's true. But not always and UEFA are spineless if they hide behind insults instead of dealing with the real issues.

[EastSaxCol]

west ham are angels of course?

ive seen west ham stab one of their own at an england away because he had the audacity to share a flag with his chelsea brother. cas pennant? bill gardner? ring any bells? the endless books?

are we any better? NO. are the mancs? NO. chelseas nazi's? again NO.

this final was overtaken with scallies who dont go to the games. just went for the day. however there is an element to our support who do cause trouble.

but no-one took a ticket off "a kid". considering the police was asking fans to hold their ticket high above their head, i dont think any parent with a head would of given a 8-15 year old a tciket to do the same. dont be so naive. the internet is a great source of knowledge but also lies.

there are problems within our support, but that is the same as west ham, chelsea, millwall, manc, leeds, stoke etc...

what happened in athens and lille, and with spurs has only brought the "english disease"

back into the publics mornings papers.

i am only glad that the fans of benfica, celtic, AC Milan and Barcelona are starting their own campaigns in support of reds against the useless organization of UEFA.

happy hammer, sorry if this seems as a rant but ive had a few malts lad. i look forward to a healthy discussion.

Fair do's mate and thanks for the reply.

No, a section of West Ham aren't exactly angels either. I've felt sick to the stomach at some of the things that I've seen - and still am at some of the racist morons that I have the misfortune to encounter on one West Ham board in particular. But we are talking of a small and gobby, neanderthal minority who are insidious amongst all sections of supporters.

Although the moronic thuggery thing is thankfully now way past. Our greatest internal threat is now the arrogant and glory-hunting elements weaned on Sky and the commodification of the game, who seem to care nothing of our traditions and roots. But that's another story.

Bill Gardner - although I like him- cuts a bit of a pathetic figure nowadays. Although to be fair, he's suprisingly vunerable about his failings as a less than rounded individual really. Cass has been astute enough to carve himself out a a decent living, building on his minor-celebrity status after his own personal turning point.

There are, as I've already intimated, definate failings that FIFA refuse to address. But I disagree that that it's the same for the other Clubs that you mention (even ManU). The Liverpool track record is appaling as everyone knows . And believe me, I've been the first to defend Liverpool supporters over Hillsborough in the face of blind prejudice against red Scousers.

Having said that, you really ought to face up to the fact that there is something about Liverpool - other than your impressive number of high profile matches - that equals problems that are hard to totally deflect elsewhere. You mention that those scallies that caused the problems were those that don't usually go to games. But that was the same when our two magnificantly supported teams met at The Millennium last year. I know West Ham supporters that came without tickets from places as far afield as Australia and Singapore just for the final. There were thousands outside without tickets, and not a hint of trouble.

So maybe that points at the better organisation in Britain than elsewhere ? From what I've gathered in Greece it was inadequate, to say the least. But when I hear blokes who were frightened, literally, for their own and their kids lives and call the scum element amongst your fans just that - scum - then that can't be ignored.

I'll always be on the side of real supporters, mate. But I won't bury my head in the sand in passing the buck entirely on those passionateless cretins who are supposed to be running the game by ignoring the glaringly obvious from our side too.

[Tarragona]

I'll always be on the side of real supporters, mate. But I won't bury my head in the sand in passing the buck entirely on those passionateless cretins who are supposed to be running the game by ignoring the glaringly obvious from our side too.

One of the most encouraging things from this episode is that matchgoing Liverpool fans do not seem to have buried their heads in the sand.

The fact that the likes of Michael Howard and the Daily Mail have been vocal in their support of the Liverpool fans is a bit difficult to take in though.

Whether UEFA will hold their hands up to their own inadequacies remains to be seen.

What was the trouble with Liverpool fans at the FA Cup game?

[swindonabroad]

Follow this link for a more amusing look at both sides.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/fiver/

Good footie siteby the way.

[EastSaxCol]

One of the most encouraging things from this episode is that matchgoing Liverpool fans do not seem to have buried their heads in the sand.

The fact that the likes of Michael Howard and the Daily Mail have been vocal in their support of the Liverpool fans is a bit difficult to take in though.

Whether UEFA will hold their hands up to their own inadequacies remains to be seen.

What was the trouble with Liverpool fans at the FA Cup game?

Michael bloody Howard !

But there we have it in a respect. Is it possible that if that had been another team would the likes of Howard be rushing to their defence? Possibly not.

You're right though, I've heard many Scouser reds condemn those that ticketless idiots who, for instance, planned beforehand to rush the gates.

I never said that there was any problems with Liverpool supporters at the champaign Cup Final . There was no trouble at all that I know of.

[kopite]

again i agree, but wasnt athens just another "england away" trip?

my point being, all the storys coming from RAWK, OTK, YNWA (liverpool forums) are all concerning 18-21 gobshites who were causing all the trouble. very similar to what we see when england are playing away in europe.

the robbing of the tickets from fellow fans is just sickening. and these s***houses were living on the cheeky scouse stereotype, and they actually believe that fellow scousers find this acceptable. its british society as a whole, and relects even worse on the city liverpool.

fakes are fakes. yes it caused a huge problem for the police in athens, but we are not by any means the only club who has supporters doing this. the mancs have a similar problem with forged tickets in lille, almost resulting in a crush similar to hillsborough.

chelsea, well they just dont travel. they dont carry the numbers away. neither do arsenal.

im not trying to defend the scum element in our support, but i will defend the 99% who are being labelled the "worst supporters in europe".

especially when theres so many incidents across europe involoving other teams, british and non-british.

if trying to get in a football ground makes us the worst fans in europe then i guess we are guilty.

[muckypups]

Excellent and well considered post in my opinion Kopite. I couldn't agree more with your sentiments... UEFA are shameful, at no point are they willing to accept any responsibility for the selection of the Athens stadium when security officials had already advised them of the unsuitability of the venue for a match of that scale.

[EastSaxCol]

again i agree, but wasnt athens just another "england away" trip?

my point being, all the storys coming from RAWK, OTK, YNWA (liverpool forums) are all concerning 18-21 gobshites who were causing all the trouble. very similar to what we see when england are playing away in europe. .

I'm sure that's right mate. I've seen similar, but not quite in the same proportion, on a WH website. It was no suprise to me when Roeder was manager that the windows of his house were bricked after his address was given out on a forum anonymously , with the tacit intent to condone some sort of harm on the bloke. It was before his medical problem, btw.

the robbing of the tickets from fellow fans is just sickening. and these s***houses were living on the cheeky scouse stereotype, and they actually believe that fellow scousers find this acceptable. its british society as a whole, and relects even worse on the city liverpool

fakes are fakes. yes it caused a huge problem for the police in athens, but we are not by any means the only club who has supporters doing this. the mancs have a similar problem with forged tickets in lille, almost resulting in a crush similar to hillsborough.

im not trying to defend the scum element in our support, but i will defend the 99% who are being labelled the "worst supporters in europe".

especially when theres so many incidents across europe involoving other teams, british and non-british.

im not trying to defend the scum element in our support, but i will defend the 99% who are being labelled the "worst supporters in europe".

if trying to get in a football ground makes us the worst fans in europe then i guess we are guilty

I agree with the vast bulk that you write.

chelsea, well they just dont travel. they dont carry the numbers away. neither do arsenal.

To be honest Chelsea don't even take that many supporters away in England, let alone abroad (sorry, but I just had to get that one in)

But I'm not sure about the arguement about the amount of travelling support that you have equating propotionately with the problems- some tragic - that Liverpool seems to carry with them

Manchester United must take similar numbers as Liverpool, yet they haven't had the same amount of adverse (non media) publicity as Liverpool have. I know that there have been incidents, but most - if not all - independent eye witness reports mostly claim police heavy handedness and unjustifiable overreaction.

God forbid, I don't wish to defend ManU or their supporters ,nor am I naive enough to suggest that they don't have their bad apples too, but the amount of bad publicity surrounding Liverpool Euro away games far outstrips that of even the Mancs.

[Tarragona]

God forbid, I don't wish to defend ManU or their supporters ,nor am I naive enough to suggest that they don't have their bad apples too, but the amount of bad publicity surrounding Liverpool Euro away games far outstrips that of even the Mancs.

If you're talking about recent years, what is all the bad publicity surrounding Liverpool Euro games?

If you're going back further, then, even as a Liverpool supporter, it's quite surprising to see how highly respected and supported Liverpool remained around Europe.

[kopite]

God forbid, I don't wish to defend ManU or their supporters ,nor am I naive enough to suggest that they don't have their bad apples too, but the amount of bad publicity surrounding Liverpool Euro away games far outstrips that of even the Mancs.

If you're talking about recent years, what is all the bad publicity surrounding Liverpool Euro games?

If you're going back further, then, even as a Liverpool supporter, it's quite surprising to see how highly respected and supported Liverpool remained around Europe.

exactly. wheres the figures and the numbers. whers the 25 incidents that UEFA have me

mentioned. tell me where. in a bar in some forsaken country when we were on our travels.

lets get it all out on the open. hillsborough. our fault? yes we brought too many lads to the ground. yes lads without tickets tried to get in. but was the dis-organization after or before these events happened our fault? NO!

heysel. yes we charged. yes there was violence from both sets of fans in the ground and yes liverpool fans were fuming from the year before in rome (a 13 year old lad had 200+ stiches to his face). yes we charged. yes we made them run. yes we killed 39 innocent lads.

BUT, yes the stadium was falling to pieces. yes barriers collapsed in the 'pool end, yes juve fans battered the f*** out of 20+ l'pool fans before the mayhem was caused right next to the wall (er, chicken wire). no ticket checks etc... it go's on and on.

what worry's me is that 22 years on and still UEFA has not learnt their lessons. luckily there was no deaths in athens.

blame it on us all you want. but i challenge any fellow supporter to name me any other games in europe (apart from heysel) when we have caused trouble. in fact name me any game in the UK (apart from the Millwall game) when we have behaved as the worst fans in europe.

ill pull facts and figures out the bag as well, and ill make any LFC basher look a little silly.

we have scum at our club, but no more or less than any other english club. but far less then any club in europe. FACT

[kopite]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/footballNews...586007220070605

oh well, garlic breath is'nt putting up a fight. BIG surprise

[EastSaxCol]

blame it on us all you want. but i challenge any fellow supporter to name me any other games in europe (apart from heysel) when we have caused trouble. in fact name me any game in the UK (apart from the Millwall game) when we have behaved as the worst fans in europe.

No doubt those Millwall scum had more than a hand in that.

But it does seem ironic that only two years after Liverpool supporters were commended for their behaviour in Istanbul that suddenly they're the worste supporters in Europe. I too would like to know what these 25 incidents that the FIFA report actually refer to as well ?

Having said that, Greece was different kettle of fish, but with the blame not solely on the shoulders of Liverpool supporters. Until FIFA actually acknowlege that the Olympic Stadium was a totally unsuitable venue for the Final then the problem isn't going to be in the least even partially resolved for the future.

[nev]

a great artical in the times on line pretty well sums it all up.

www.timesonline.com.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/artical1890310.ece

sorry i had to type the artical dont know how to cut and paste, lol.

[highchol]

a great artical in the times on line pretty well sums it all up.

www.timesonline.com.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/artical1890310.ece

sorry i had to type the artical dont know how to cut and paste, lol.

here you go nev ...i think this is the article you intended.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/col...icle1890310.ece

[EastSaxCol]

a great artical in the times on line pretty well sums it all up.

www.timesonline.com.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/artical1890310.ece

sorry i had to type the artical dont know how to cut and paste, lol.

Martin Samuel, West Ham supprter ain't he