Nearly Eight In Ten Believe Or Are Unsure About At Least One Common Falsehood About COVID-19 Or The Vaccine

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22 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why does it matter which side they are on ?

This about vaccines .

Their political leanings are irrelevant to this matter 

What don't you understand about the fact that right wing media and right wing politicians are pushing a false narrative about vaccines and the pandemic?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

What don't you understand about the fact that right wing media and right wing politicians are pushing a false narrative about vaccines and the pandemic?

Why is it of any relevance as to their Political beliefs ?

The subject is vaccines , rather than political leanings 

[blackprince]

As anyone who has seen my posts knows, I'm in favour of vaccines. I'm equally in favour of balanced reporting.

 

Anyone who approaches the issue of vaxx conspiracies with an open mind knows that it's not limited to the right or far right. Here's yet another example to confirm that point, from The Guardian, probably the most respected international progressive voice in the world.

 

"Being obliged to spend time around devout anti-vaxxers has disabused me of the comforting idea that they are either disingenuous or rightwing nut jobs.

Yes, there are those on the right who exploit those ready to believe the world is not as it appears, but many of those I’ve spoken with would be horrified to be labelled right wing. They identify as LGBTQI+ allies, advocate for action on climate change, and honestly believe all the misinformation they’re spreading.

While there are undoubtedly rightwing elements involved my experience is that there is no coherent ideology linking these conspiracists. This is what makes them so frustrating to argue with."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/20/how-do-you-argue-with-anti-vaxxers-who-believe-theyre-on-a-noble-mission

Edited November 25, 2021 by blackprince

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9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why is it of any relevance as to their Political beliefs ?

The subject is vaccines , rather than political leanings 

Really? The subject is vaccines? That's odd. I thought the subject was

 

Nearly Eight In Ten Believe Or Are Unsure About At Least One Common Falsehood About COVID-19 Or The Vaccine

 

Ya think, maybe, just possible, false narratives from the right wing media and right wing politicians might have something to do with that?

[blackprince]

Again from The Guardian.

 

“The Economist’s model estimates 10 to 19m extra deaths around the world during the pandemic. Five million deaths is a grim milestone, but humanity passed that long ago.”

 

By David Spiegelhalter and Anthony Masters.

 

David Spiegelhalter is chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge. Anthony Masters is statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society.

 

Spiegelhalter and Masters write short sharp highly focused pieces in language that anyone can understand. Well worth reading.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/nov/07/we-can-be-confident-there-have-been-far-more-than-5-million-covid-deaths

Edited November 25, 2021 by blackprince

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Really? The subject is vaccines? That's odd. I thought the subject was

 

Nearly Eight In Ten Believe Or Are Unsure About At Least One Common Falsehood About COVID-19 Or The Vaccine

 

Ya think, maybe, just possible, false narratives from the right wing media and right wing politicians might have something to do with that?

I don't take much notice of a persons Political beliefs , I just listen to what they say .

  I read peoples opinion and I dont take much notice of where its published 

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Just now, blackprince said:

The correlation between residual mistrust of government in East Germany from soviet times and anti vaxxers has already been pointed out you by a German who knows Germany far better than we will. The afd correlation is not relevant to the correlation I am talking about, but your confirmation bias only allows you to see the half of the picture you want to see.

 

The size of the black community in the UK is irrelevant to the statistic that c70% black British are anti vaxx. You might also want to consider that statistic in light of the fact Britain has the highest acceptance of vaxx in the major western economies.

 

Re QAnon and the libertarian left. I already provided the link in my post that you responded too. As far as I remember that was specifically an Australian report.

 

In my opinion you display as much confirmation bias aka perception bias as the people you frequently deride here. You also have a tendency to see the rest of the world through the filter of the US culture war that you are so heavily engaged in.

 

 

Yes, there is a residual mistrust of  in eastern Germany. And the AFD exploited that mistrust and turned it into a political movement. It's absurd to say that people's attitudes about government aren't political. And utterly blind to maintain that the AFD by exploiting those sentiments hasn't made the anti-vax movement stronger. As for the person from Germany "who knows  Germany far better than we will", he just recently compared German govt. pressure to get vaccinated to the Nazi concentration camp program...There are millions of Germans who know understand Germany better than we will, do they all or mostly agree with him? What makes his views canonical?

And there's this:

And to deny the correlation in other countries elsewhere, is just being blind.

Far right spies an opportunity in Europe’s new wave of Covid pain and protest

A new fault line is emerging in Austrian and European politics: whether or not a party supports Covid restrictions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/far-right-spies-opportunity-europes-new-wave-covid-pain-protest-rcna5695

 

Wow, some left wing loons in Australis support Qanon?  You think this accurately represents the composition of the movement as a whole? Cherry-picking much?

 

I'm not claiming that in all countries anti-vaccination sentiment is politically based. But where it is, its almost invariably a right-wing phenomenon..

 

 

 

A

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why does it matter which side they are on ?

This about vaccines .

Their political leanings are irrelevant to this matter 

OK I get it, you don't like the fact that political affiliation is a distinct indicator of vaccine refusal. 

 

The discomfort this fact causes you does not change the fact. 

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2021-07-23/coronavirus-vaccines-highlight-a-deadly-political-divide

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02099-7/fulltext

 

https://healthpolicy-watch.news/political-views-and-vaccine-refusal-rates-an-increasing-concern-for-policymakers-and-public-health-officials/

 

I could provide more links but you don't need them, just look at who the anti-vaccine posters are here on this forum, they are all right-wingers. 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I don't take much notice of a persons Political beliefs , I just listen to what they say .

  I read peoples opinion and I dont take much notice of where its published 

I suggest you first identify who is proffering anti-vaccine opinions then go look at their wider political views. 

 

If you do this it will disabuse you of the fallacy that political persuasion has no part in vaccine acceptance/refusal. 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Virt]

15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Let’s be clear, people holding left wing views have indeed been caught up in the anti-vaccine misinformation.

 

But it is rightwing political leaders who have formulated national and state policies based on COVID/Vaccine misinformation and who continue to propagate misinformation to bolster the policy lines they have established.

 

Left winger, right wingers, no wingers....

Covid really don't care which side you support., but thankfully a lot has received their shots no matter what political party they support.

The rest that chose to remain unvaccinated?

Time will tell, but they have a higher chance of ending up as nothing more than a number in the statistics.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-unvaccinated-have-14-times-greater-risk-of-covid-death/

[Credo]

8 hours ago, Virt said:

 

Left winger, right wingers, no wingers....

Covid really don't care which side you support., but thankfully a lot has received their shots no matter what political party they support.

The rest that chose to remain unvaccinated?

Time will tell, but they have a higher chance of ending up as nothing more than a number in the statistics.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-unvaccinated-have-14-times-greater-risk-of-covid-death/

Covid doesn't care what political party you are, what religion you are, nor your race.   That said, much of the misinformation comes from the right.  I know one network that tends to be less supportive of vaccines mandated that had all their employees get vaccinated.   

 

I don't know the numbers on the left-leaning side who aren't vaccinated but I am sure there are plenty, just not as many as on the right side.   A lot of minorities lean left, yet have lower vaccination rates.  The big difference is that with many it's a personal choice and not a political stance.   

 

[blackprince]

17 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Yes, there is a residual mistrust of  in eastern Germany. And the AFD exploited that mistrust and turned it into a political movement. It's absurd to say that people's attitudes about government aren't political. And utterly blind to maintain that the AFD by exploiting those sentiments hasn't made the anti-vax movement stronger. As for the person from Germany "who knows  Germany far better than we will", he just recently compared German govt. pressure to get vaccinated to the Nazi concentration camp program...There are millions of Germans who know understand Germany better than we will, do they all or mostly agree with him? What makes his views canonical?

And there's this:

And to deny the correlation in other countries elsewhere, is just being blind.

Far right spies an opportunity in Europe’s new wave of Covid pain and protest

A new fault line is emerging in Austrian and European politics: whether or not a party supports Covid restrictions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/far-right-spies-opportunity-europes-new-wave-covid-pain-protest-rcna5695

 

Wow, some left wing loons in Australis support Qanon?  You think this accurately represents the composition of the movement as a whole? Cherry-picking much?

 

I'm not claiming that in all countries anti-vaccination sentiment is politically based. But where it is, its almost invariably a right-wing phenomenon..

 

I've previously given several examples of your confirmation bias, but I see you are still quite happy to display your confirmation bias to  everyone here.

 

As I said before you have a tendency to see the world through the lens of the US culture war that you are so heavily involved in.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by onthedarkside
flame comment removed

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13 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Yank, neither dem or rep, and voted in 1 presidential election in my life, and over 20 yrs ago, so not political agenda or allegiance.  They're all criminals in my book, with very few exceptions.

 

With that, my thoughts on the questions:

 

 

Please. Some of your previous posting clearly establish where you stand politically. Another instance of concern trolling. In this case you pretend to adopt a stance of political neutrality. It's clear from your comments here that you mostly subscribe to the lunacy that is largely promoted by right wing sources.

 

1) Excess mortality figures show that overwhelmingly deaths from covid have consistently been understated,not exaggerated as you claim.

 

2)COVID raises risk of stillbirth, new research finds. What to know about vaccines during pregnancy

"Now, research is showing that pregnant people with COVID-19 have a higher risk of their baby being stillborn, according to a November report by the CDC. While the overall rate of stillbirths was low from March 2020 to September 2021, people who had COVID-19 during their delivery had a 1.26% chance of stillbirth, compared to people without COVID-19 at .64% -- roughly double the risk. This risk was even higher, the CDC said, during the months the delta variant was circulating. "

https://www.cnet.com/health/parenting/covid-raises-risk-of-stillbirth-new-research-finds-what-to-know-about-vaccines-during-pregnancy/

 

3)It's obvious that some governments are intentionally underestimating deaths. 2 of the most egregious examples are Russia and Mexico. 

 

4) Well, experts in virology and epidemiology would be very surprised if there were what you call long term effects from vaccination. These actually  should  be called latent effects. Namely symptoms that arise long after inoculation. That has never been the case with any vaccine in the past. Why wouldn't you find it surprising? On the other hand, we do know that there are serious, even fatal, latent effects from some viruses.

 

5)Not only is there no good evidence that ivermectin works, but people use it instead of getting proper treatment or delay treatment and suffer the consequences.

 

6)I guess number 6 & 7 you included to demonstrate your alleged impartiality. Those allegations about getting covid and microchip implantation were always transparently ridiculous.

 

???? A transparently ridiculous allegation that you do believe is credible is the nonsense about vaccines changing one's DNA.. There is no conceivable mechanism by which strands of mRNA can affect one's DNA. Same goes for the vector vaccines.

[blackprince]

3 hours ago, Credo said:

   A lot of minorities lean left, yet have lower vaccination rates.  The big difference is that with many it's a personal choice and not a political stance.   

 

Some of us are old enough to remember the progressive maxim "the personal is political".

 

Many of the threads initiated on this subforum are simply projections of the problems in the USA. It seems that American progressives and conservatives have a lot in common - their assumption that the rest of the world shares their problems and fixations.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by blackprince

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Some of us are old enough to remember the progressive maxim "the personal is political".

 

Many of the threads initiated on this subforum are simply projections of the problems in the USA. It seems that American progressives and conservatives have a lot in common - their assumption that the rest of the world shares their problems and fixations.

 

 

You have the horse before the cart.

 

The then US President placed COVID misinformation at the heart of his policies, the US rightwing stepped into line and remain inline following COVID misinformation with anti-mask, anti-lockdown, anti-vaccine doctrines.

 

The reason this shows up in what is a multinational forum is because, for good or bad, where the US leads much of the rest of the world follows. 

 

What US progressives do not have in common with large parts of the US Conservative/Christian rightwing is an adherence to science based policies in the fight against this disease. 

 

 

Your 'both-side-ism' is noted and recognised for what it is.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

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6 hours ago, blackprince said:

I've previously given several examples of your confirmation bias, but I see you are still quite happy to display your confirmation bias to  everyone here.

 

As I said before you have a tendency to see the world through the lens of the US culture war that you are so heavily involved in.

 

 

Anyone who doubts that the political right has been pushing false narratives about vaccinations and the seriousness of the covid pandemic is being willfully blind. As I specifically noted, Covid denialism isn't everywhere a political phenomenon, But where it is, it almost exclusively comes from the right wing. I have provided plenty of evidence for that. Evidence which you have largely ignored. Projecting much? Anyone who claims that Qanon is getting significant support from the left needs to do some serious rethinking.

 

Poland’s vaccine skeptics create a political headache

The core areas of support for the Law and Justice party are also the wariest of vaccines.

https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-vaccine-skeptic-vax-hesitancy-political-trouble-polish-coronavirus-covid-19/

 

Italy’s Anti-Vaccination Movement Is Militant and Dangerous

Last month, thousands of Italian anti-vaccine advocates mobilized across the country. Thick plumes of tear gas filled the streets and water cannons were turned on the crowds as far-right gangs stormed parliament’s stairs. Shocking photos and videos hit Twitter and immediately went viral even outside of Italy for their uncanny resemblance to the Jan. 6 insurrection at Capitol Hill.

According to Reuters, more than 30 Italian anti-riot police officers were injured, and leaders of Italy’s far-right New Force party were arrested along with dozens of other protesters.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/13/italy-anti-vaccination-movement-militant-dangerous/

 

As for Germany. Yes, vaccinations have always had a political dimension. But contrary to what you believe, in the former East Germany, vaccine acceptance is actually much higher than in the west. This according to the Robert Koch Institute.

"Vaccine acceptance is higher in the former East Germany, according to Germany's Robert Koch Institute for public health."

https://www.dw.com/en/in-germany-vaccinations-have-always-been-political/a-56221965

And yet resistance to the covid vaccine is at its strongest there. 

"In Germany, resistance to the vaccine is marked in the affluent southern states of Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg as well as in eastern regions such as Saxony. Markus Söder, the Bavarian prime minister, said the three regions had a large proportion of Querdenker (“lateral thinkers”) — members of a protest movement that form the loudest voice against the government’s pandemic curbs. ... “We have coronavirus and we have this poison [of vaccine scepticism], which is being spread on a massive scale by the Querdenker and by parties like the [far-right] Alternative for Germany [AfD]”.

https://www.ft.com/content/f04ac67b-92e4-4bab-8c23-817cc0483df5

So, who you gonna trust? justanotherhun or the very conservative  prime minister of Bavaria?

 

In Romania, Hard-Hit by Covid, Doctors Fight Vaccine Refusal

An anti-vaccine clarion call by leading religious figures, echoed by prominent politicians and social media, helps explain why Romania now has the world’s highest Covid death rate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/world/europe/romania-covid-vaccine-refusal.html

 

There's more where these came from.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Virt said:

 

Left winger, right wingers, no wingers....

Covid really don't care which side you support., but thankfully a lot has received their shots no matter what political party they support.

The rest that chose to remain unvaccinated?

Time will tell, but they have a higher chance of ending up as nothing more than a number in the statistics.

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-unvaccinated-have-14-times-greater-risk-of-covid-death/

Indeed the COVID virus is not at all concerned with an individuals political persuasions and only with their vaccine status.

 

However, political persuasion is a demonstrably signifiant factor in vaccine acceptance. 

 

Yes the unvaccinated are becoming statistics and those statistics are weighted heavily towards victims being followers of rightwing politics, rightwing news sources and rightwing leaders. 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

I could provide more links but you don't need them, just look at who the anti-vaccine posters are here on this forum, they are all right-wingers. 

I keep out of this forums Left verses Right .

There seems to be a handful of you both in each corner throwing pelters at each other on a regular basis and pointing fingers at each other .

   I try to avoid getting involved 

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1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Indeed the COVID virus is not at all concerned with an individuals political persuasions and only with their vaccine status.

 

However, political persuasion is a demonstrably signifiant factor in vaccine acceptance. 

 

Yes the unvaccinated are becoming statistics and those statistics are weighted heavily towards victims being followers of rightwing politics, rightwing news sources and rightwing leaders. 

 

 

 

That is certainly true where the political right wing has embraced ant--vaccination and other public health policies. It's also obvious that right-wing media's undermining of vaccinations and other public health measures is having an effect.  Of course, there are many countries where politics play little role in the debate. The citizens of those nations are far more likely to hold a favorable view of vaccinations.

 

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5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I keep out of this forums Left verses Right .

There seems to be a handful of you both in each corner throwing pelters at each other on a regular basis and pointing fingers at each other .

   I try to avoid getting involved 

There isn't much pointing of fingers at the left by right wingers. That's because most of the opponents of vaccinations or deniers of the seriousness of the pandemic are actually right wing. To ignore that factor is just another instance of willful blindness.

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6 hours ago, blackprince said:

I've previously given several examples of your confirmation bias, but I see you are still quite happy to display your confirmation bias to  everyone here.

 

As I said before you have a tendency to see the world through the lens of the US culture war that you are so heavily involved in.

 

Since your such a fan of informal polling, what's your take on where opponents of vaccination or strong public health measures to get people vaccinated are coming from politically? The answer is obvious but who knows, you may deny the correlation there, too.

[blackprince]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

Since your such a fan of informal polling, what's your take on where opponents of vaccination or strong public health measures to get people vaccinated are coming from politically? The answer is obvious but who knows, you may deny the correlation there, too.

Actually I'm a qualified statistician, at Bachelor and Master degree levels.

 

You seem to be determined to make enemies of your political friends. A more skilled operator would seek to make friends of their political enemies.

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I keep out of this forums Left verses Right .

There seems to be a handful of you both in each corner throwing pelters at each other on a regular basis and pointing fingers at each other .

   I try to avoid getting involved 

I have absolutely no problem with any rightwinger throwing pelters at me regarding my views on vaccination, they are based on best scientific and medical advice and pro vaccination messaging has not cost a disgustingly high number of unnecessary deaths.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

There isn't much pointing of fingers at the left by right wingers. That's because most of the opponents of vaccinations or deniers of the seriousness of the pandemic are actually right wing. To ignore that factor is just another instance of willful blindness.

OK, OK ,OK, the Right wing are the baddies and the Left wing are the goodies , now lets talk about the vaccine 

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5 hours ago, blackprince said:

Actually I'm a qualified statistician, at Bachelor and Master degree levels.

 

You seem to be determined to make enemies of your political friends. A more skilled operator would seek to make friends of their political enemies.

 

Well, focusing on changing people's minds rather than on the political issue is one way to evade dealing with the facts I've presented.

[sirineou]

I personally don't understand the thought process of some people, you think a certain way and you think everyone also does. 2+2=4 right? well apparently not for everyone. I don't know what it is.

 I think is focus ,retention. and insecurity  . 

I don't think everyone bears the same amount of focus on a particular problem , they get distracted and fail to consider pertinent components, for them it is not 2+2 but rathe 1+1+1+1 and in the process they miss one 1  and come up with 3 . 

  Then there is retention. They make a false claim as we are all prone to do from time to time, and you point out the mistake to them with links to sources. Then a few pages later or in another thread they make the same false claim.

   Finally it's insecurity. When you correct their false claim, rather than say "fair enough" . be happy to no longer be wrong, and adjust their position,  they cant accept the fact that they could be wrong. even though they have been wrong in the past, so why couldn't they be wrong now?  so they engage in all sort of intellectual gymnastics trying to defend the indefectible. 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by sirineou

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5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

OK, OK ,OK, the Right wing are the baddies and the Left wing are the goodies , now lets talk about the vaccine 

What don't you understand about the fact that the subject of this thread is:

 

Nearly Eight In Ten Believe Or Are Unsure About At Least One Common Falsehood About COVID-19 Or The Vaccine

Why do you think it's irrelevant to delve into the reasons why these falsehoods are so commonly believed?

 

And it's not like there no track record of your political beliefs in the various forums here.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

What don't you understand about the fact that the subject of this thread is:

 

Nearly Eight In Ten Believe Or Are Unsure About At Least One Common Falsehood About COVID-19 Or The Vaccine

Why do you think it's irrelevant to delve into the reasons why these falsehoods are so commonly believed?

 

And it's not like there no track record of your political beliefs in the various forums here.

 

OK OK OK, the Right wing media are bad and the Left wing media are good . 

[Mac Mickmanus]

22 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Apart from the fact it is rightwing political leaders propagating anti-vaccine misinformation and predominantly right leaning individuals who swallow it.

 

The predominance is right wing with a much smaller subset of left wingers.

O.K, this topics survey states that some of the polled  people believe that the vaccines contains a microchip .

   Who are the Right wing political  leaders/News sources  who have claimed that ? 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

O.K, this topics survey states that some of the polled  people believe that the vaccines contains a microchip .

   Who are the Right wing political  leaders/News sources  who have claimed that ? 

Rightwing Politicians:

https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/state-lawmaker-promotes-debunked-vaccine-conspiracy-theory-on-senate-floor

 

The Christian Right: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-evangelical-right-pushed-microchip-vaccine-conspiracy-theory-2021-9

 

Leaders of Rightwing Organisations: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/29/don-wagner-vaccine-tracking-devices/

 

Rightwing TV Commentators:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fox-news-viewers-bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccines-tracking-1004415/