Thailand again signals move away from mass-market foreign tourism with falling numbers

[morrobay]

56 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

 

  Except for "price" and a "beach", can you tell me the difference between Thailand and other "destinations"?  

But price of girls and beach are very very big pluses . This is synergism : the combined effect is greater than the sum of the parts, 1+1=3. That is what this place had going for it that attracted all the development coming in riding piggy back. It would not be possible to replace those two attractions with a Monte Carlo. Just look at the sidewalk/infrastructure scene in Pattaya. Impossible , they can go on and on until the cows come home. But they cannot change at that level outside of some exclusive enclaves. 

 

[RmcaIssan]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:36 PM, RichardColeman said:

Problem with aiming for high class tourists and the dismantling of the sex industry is that that is probably 6-8 million jobs out the window and no new industry to employ them on the horizon.

 

The aim for high class tourists and no more sex industry is a fine aim, but they should not even attempt anything like that until tourism is back to 32-40 million a year and they have something in place to support their goals and start the transferring the sex industry workers and soon to be 'poor' tourism support workers to better jobs 

High class tourists go to Barbados and the likes ...Thailand will always be known for what it is ..

[Walker88]

TAT and senior govt officials project the kind of morality they want everyone to believe they have on to foreigners who are wealthy, and that is so silly and far from reality.

 

The guy sitting next to you in Pin-up or Billboard may well be worth tens of millions of dollars....in other words, he's the kind of 'quality' Thai officials claim to seek. Wealth doesn't destroy the libido. Quite the opposite. It often sets the libido free, because price is no object. Some folks buy the Lambo because driving it is a kick, but a good many drop the dosh for an Aventador because they think (hope) it's a babe magnet.

 

Morality and the number of digits in a bank balance have no relation, or if they do it is likely negative.

 

In most major cities of the world very high end escort services exist. Their customers are not pinching pennies or living off a govt pension. $10K+ for a romp in the hay. The so-called 'gentlemen's clubs' in places like NYC cater to the Wall Street/Hedge Fund/RE Mogul demographic. I know that because as a buy side trader I used to be wined and dined by IBs and Prime Brokers, partly anxious for my business, but more interested in pursuing their 'passions' on the company dime, and I was the excuse they needed to go play. Most of these guys made at least $1 million a year, so they reek of 'quality' according to how that term is defined in Thailand's halls of power.

 

Those in Thailand who want everyone to think they are moral keep mia nois or other paramours. They are embarrassed that the world views Thailand in a certain way, but the majority of those embarrassed are into the same activities that brings the sex tourist to Thailand, albeit engaging in it in a slightly more discreet manner.

 

In any event, just as the Thai elite are not going to stop pursuing their carnal instincts, neither are single male tourists who choose to visit Thailand. Because of the latter, the venues where such tourists can pursue their wants will continue to exist, and they will drop lots of cash while on holiday.

 

Thai authorities might as well define 'quality' in ways that reflect reality, not illusions.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Walker88

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Woe indeed but seeing as how they were stiched up by the new constitution, how does the nation get rid of them?

This is why when some young Thais started a Facebook page on how to leave Thailand and make a life for yourself elsewhere, it got over a million members quickly. There is a sense of hopelessness. 

 

I would say by any means necessary. It has to happen. 

[Stargeezr]

In the past I have seen some rich tourists in Thailand. Most of them were in Bangkok, staying at

more expensive hotels than I stayed at. They would be on tour buses gong places that I was

going to see as well, and they shopped at upscale malls in the city.  The single guys, got their oil changed at the hotels 

where they stayed, so the call girls were available to them without them having to go to some entertainment place

to get their entertainment.  When I stayed at Shangri La Hotel, I met a few there as well. All in all I doubt that they

spent all that much more money on trinkets etc, than I did. The Kingdom of Thailand has changed quite a bit

since the 70s and It is not as cheap to visit as it was, but it is a tropical country, and my Thai family lives there

so I keep coming back. It will be a happy day when this General PM is gone, as his expiry date had passed quite a

while ago. Same goes for lots of the present government. Even my Thai family are not impressed with this bunch

of military people. Thailand need mass tourism more now than it ever did, so the government and TAT

should just quit dreaming.

[Boomer6969]

6 minutes ago, Stargeezr said:

In the past I have seen some rich tourists in Thailand. Most of them were in Bangkok, staying at

more expensive hotels than I stayed at. They would be on tour buses gong places that I was

going to see as well, and they shopped at upscale malls in the city.  The single guys, got their oil changed at the hotels 

where they stayed, so the call girls were available to them without them having to go to some entertainment place

to get their entertainment.  When I stayed at Shangri La Hotel, I met a few there as well. All in all I doubt that they

spent all that much more money on trinkets etc, than I did. The Kingdom of Thailand has changed quite a bit

since the 70s and It is not as cheap to visit as it was, but it is a tropical country, and my Thai family lives there

so I keep coming back. It will be a happy day when this General PM is gone, as his expiry date had passed quite a

while ago. Same goes for lots of the present government. Even my Thai family are not impressed with this bunch

of military people. Thailand need mass tourism more now than it ever did, so the government and TAT

should just quit dreaming.

If you draft your posts on some line editor, make sure it doesn't "auto carriage return". Maybe you could use a typewriter too.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Boomer6969

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Woe indeed but seeing as how they were stiched up by the new constitution, how does the nation get rid of them?

Guns and knives usually work.

[kiwikeith]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:36 AM, RichardColeman said:

Problem with aiming for high class tourists and the dismantling of the sex industry is that that is probably 6-8 million jobs out the window and no new industry to employ them on the horizon.

 

The aim for high class tourists and no more sex industry is a fine aim, but they should not even attempt anything like that until tourism is back to 32-40 million a year and they have something in place to support their goals and start the transferring the sex industry workers and soon to be 'poor' tourism support workers to better jobs 

They might open a school to teach girls how to use crypto currency, but they will never teach the poor, the market traders and the street vendors, introducing a cashless society in LOS, would see mass  rebellion .

Brace yourselves as of this moment countries are going into lockdown over Little O, Omicron, SA does not seem worried but Boris and the rest of the mob think otherwise, oh well as the Thais say, up to you.

[bkk_bwana]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:25 AM, Soikhaonoiken said:

 yes, tourists have been on the decline over the past few years, (excluded covid

No they haven't. The number has been increasing. 

2019	39,797,406	4.24%[47]
2018	38,277,300	7.54%
2017	35,381,210	8.57%
2016	32,588,303	8.91%[48]
2015	29,881,091	20.44%

[The Cipher]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

Morality and the number of digits in a bank balance have no relation, or if they do it is likely negative.

 

In most major cities of the world very high end escort services exist. Their customers are not pinching pennies or living off a govt pension. $10K+ for a romp in the hay. The so-called 'gentlemen's clubs' in places like NYC cater to the Wall Street/Hedge Fund/RE Mogul demographic. I know that because as a buy side trader I used to be wined and dined by IBs and Prime Brokers, partly anxious for my business, but more interested in pursuing their 'passions' on the company dime, and I was the excuse they needed to go play. Most of these guys made at least $1 million a year, so they reek of 'quality' according to how that term is defined in Thailand's halls of power.

So I work in high finance and can confirm that this is, to some degree, true. Have seen some insane stuff. Have also been to a couple of parties hosed by wealthy Thais here that also have a bajillion hired escorts around as well as other forms of less-legal entertainment.

 

So it's true that both high wealth and low wealth people engage in 'degen' activities, but in my observation there tend to be major differences in behavior and presentation in general between those groups.

 

Sure, Finance Bro might bang a hooker, but he knows how to clean up nice and present well when out and about the city. He's less likely to be offensively loud or alternative in style/action. He fits more seamlessly into the picture of society that Thailand's elites envision. And there are already enough locals that don't (yet) fit into that picture, so from the pov of Thailand's Elites, why would they want to import more from overseas?

 

And if you've worked on the Street or with HNW folks in general, then you know that there tends to be a massive difference in idea quality and life outlook compared to, say, the average poster on this forum (proxy for the average farang in Thailand? Tho maybe not anymore). Gotta say - a move upmarket, whether realistic or not, would be kinda nice.

[Walker88]

18 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

Sure, Finance Bro might bang a hooker, but he knows how to clean up nice and present well when out and about the city. He's less likely to be offensively loud or alternative in style/action. He fits more seamlessly into the picture of society that Thailand's elites envision. And there are already enough locals that don't (yet) fit into that picture, so from the pov of Thailand's Elites, why would they want to import more from overseas?

 

 

I know what you mean, but in a sense your argument is that we're good at creating the illusion of decency. I'm not sure that denotes any kind of moral superiority, but maybe it does look nicer, like a fresh coat of paint on an old house. Of course I don't walk around Bangkok or Pattaya in my Brioni suits and Stefano Ricci shirts, and a well-turned ankle both draws my eye and might even elicit a passing carnal thought. I blame my Y chromosome for that, not my net worth.

 

My former colleagues do tend to dress well and maybe take better care of themselves, so they are unlikely to be the beer-bellied, wife-beater-wearing guy who has planted his fat <deleted> on a barstool by 11am and doesn't leave it until late. Still, they are as likely as the aforementioned wife-beater wearing guy to link up with a short term friend.

 

I am not any sort of sexual deviant, perhaps lacking the imagination to have perversions, but I cannot say the same for all my hedge fund buddies. As I wrote in the post you quoted, substantial wealth doesn't suppress the libido; it often lets it loose. In the way Thai authorities define 'quality', I would guess they would agree a guy with $150 billion is a quality kind of guy, but the reality is that guy sent (nickname for Richard) phone pics to his paramour, leading to the most expensive divorce in history. Thus decency and proper decorum are not some monopoly of the wealthy.

 

I guess Thailand is looking to create a Potemkin Village of tourism, where the glossy facade is aimed at hiding base behavior, so long as wallets are opened early and often.

[kingstonkid]

22 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Well one Simon Complex has been demolished already, and the other is looking likely to get similar treatment... but the bar area where the boxing ring  used to be actually got a facelift. Don't expect the seafood restaurants or the popular nightclubs will be going away.

I agree but until we lift the restrictions and see those nightclubs may not be as popular as they were before covid.  The seafood restaurant and boxing can still be kept but upgraded.  Tourists want to see Muay thai and each seafood so during the day they can actually be family entertainment. 

[khunpa]

Thailands main problem is it’s truly bad educational system, designed to keep people stuck on the same social level.

 

Here you can easily find people with bachelor degrees in English, who can not speak a word of English and sell noddles for a living. Their educational system simply sucks big time and a Thai-degree is completely useless anywhere in the world.

 

Add to that a culture of day to day living, corruption, lack of common sense and a mentally that you “lose face” if you have to admit to personal wrongdoing, you will never see much progress or development. 

 

Luckily the younger generation has started to see what they are missing out on and things will change. But it will take a very long time and several generations.

 

Until then Thailand will keep being what it is. A low-educated production country and a tourist destination for middle class foreigners. 
 

They can wish and talk as much as they want. It does not change the fundamental problems.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Cipher]

7 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I'm not sure that denotes any kind of moral superiority, but maybe it does look nicer

Wealth enables 'misbehavior'. I'd never suggest that wealth is a claim to moral superiority, whatever that even means - if anything, it's the opposite.

 

11 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I know what you mean, but in a sense your argument is that we're good at creating the illusion of decency.  My former colleagues do tend to dress well and maybe take better care of themselves, so they are unlikely to be the beer-bellied, wife-beater-wearing guy who has planted his fat <deleted> on a barstool by 11am and doesn't leave it until late.

It's this.

 

Speaking for myself here (but probably generalizable), I don't really care what a person's private proclivities are. I care that when I'm out and about and we share a space or interact, that their appearance, mannerisms, and attempts at forming ideas don't actively irritate me. I'm assuming this is also where TAT is coming from, but who knows.

[Walker88]

7 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 I care that when I'm out and about and we share a space or interact, that their appearance, mannerisms, and attempts at forming ideas don't actively irritate me. I'm assuming this is also where TAT is coming from, but who knows.

I'm with you there (re social behavior), and while I'd like to think that is TAT and Thailand's leaders view, I think their real goal is just big spenders and pretty people who look like the party goers in designer vodka commercials or in the pages of Town and Country. They want the folks who fill the Lodge at Pebble Beach or dine at The French Laundry.

[John Drake]

On 12/18/2021 at 8:45 AM, rct99q said:

A recent  news article  showed there  Will be upwards of a million Chinese visitors using the rail service (up to the Laos border) for the Chinese new year in February.

I do hope the writers of that article consulted with the Chinese government, which isn't going to let anyone go anywhere for the foreseeable future.

[mommysboy]

Putting on a brave face more like. 

 

If there were a chance of regaining even 50% of what they had previously they'd jump at it!

 

Anyway, I don't know many 5 star tourists who would want to come here really.  Thailand's appeal always was about 'dirty dancing' even amongst the well heeled.

Edited December 19, 2021 by mommysboy

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:40 AM, Cherrytreeview said:

Yet the Pattaya subsection of the forum is full of sexpats thinking Pattaya is bursting at the seams.

You must have been reading a different Pattaya subforum to myself then. Such posts would be IMO a rarity.

 

However, though I voluntarily left, seems that many will be joining me involuntarily. Not looking good for farangs that want to live in LOS.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, bkk_bwana said:

No they haven't. The number has been increasing. 

2019	39,797,406	4.24%[47]
2018	38,277,300	7.54%
2017	35,381,210	8.57%
2016	32,588,303	8.91%[48]
2015	29,881,091	20.44%

Unless you can provide a breakdown of the numbers that, IMO is meaningless. It could just mean that  Malaysian businessmen were coming over the border for fun on weekends more often. Each border entry is counted as a separate person.

[Nino3]

On 12/17/2021 at 5:08 PM, DonniePeverley said:

Every city has a seedy element to it. Singapore, Tokyo, London, Las Vegas, New York. Hell, prositution is LEGAL in alot of European countries like Amsterdam, cities in Germany and America. 

 

Load of old nonsense. Thailand is a budget vaccation and decent value for money, where we go for a budget vaccation. If we had the money there are more luxurious places to spend your money. 

Agree. I ask, is there a difference between a tourist and a vacationer? Does a vacationer stay in country from 1 to 30 days while a tourist stays for up to 90 days? I believe that TAT is referring to vacationers. I could be wrong.

 

The article states "many often spending their annual savings on trips to what used to be the Land of Smiles" and "upwardly mobile market". The latter being the social class they believe is the answer. Wealthy tourist has been thrown around for along time now. What is a wealthy tourist? One that spends only half ones annual savings on a trip to Thailand or one that spends with no restraint. Wealth and status for many go hand in hand. Status for the wealthy is a selfie sipping champagne in Monaco not a selfie eating street food in Bangkok.

 

You are absolutely correct in that Thailand is a budget vacation and nothing more. I have lived, worked and been in and out of Thailand on a frequent basis since 2007. Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, Hua Hin, North, North East, West, South and everywhere in between and I can say that in my mind I have yet to find one thing in Thailand that may interest a wealthy vacationer/tourist. I just don't see it. Maybe it's the high dollar shopping malls. 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

This is why when some young Thais started a Facebook page on how to leave Thailand and make a life for yourself elsewhere, it got over a million members quickly. There is a sense of hopelessness. 

 

I would say by any means necessary. It has to happen. 

Nothing unique to Thailand in that. NZ workers have been going to OZ for decades because the pay is better. I'd say soon as it's possible to do so a lot of nurses will be abandoning NZ for higher pay in OZ. Same with Thailand. Now that apprentice type training has ended for many occupations loyalty has gone and people will go where the rewards are better. IMO nothing to do with a sense of hopelessness. 

[Dogmatix]

All childish nonsense as usual conceived by born rich Chinese Thais who live totally divorced from reality and and have no idea what makes foreign tourists and ordiniary Thais tick.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Nino3 said:

I have lived, worked and been in and out of Thailand on a frequent basis since 2007. Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, Hua Hin, North, North East, West, South and everywhere in between and I can say that in my mind I have yet to find one thing in Thailand that may interest a wealthy vacationer/tourist.

Obviously missed all those extremely high class and very expensive resorts then. One is on Railay- the customers never have to mix with the common folk on longtails to get there- have a special posh boat just for them. Not the only one in LOS by any means.

Track of the Tiger company in Chiang Rai catered to wealthy customers for tours and accommodation.

[Trip Hop]

4 hours ago, RmcaIssan said:

High class tourists go to Barbados and the likes ...Thailand will always be known for what it is ..

Exactly and by comparison, in Barbados it is instilled into the younger generation by the family elders, that if they look after the tourists and not try to rip them off for every dollar they can, they will all have a reasonable living? Even the hire cars all have registration plates prefixed with a H to denote that they are tourists, so that the locals can be patient with their driving and the police know to leave them well alone?

[John Drake]

2 hours ago, The Cipher said:

Sure, Finance Bro might bang a hooker, but he knows how to clean up nice and present well when out and about the city. He's less likely to be offensively loud or alternative in style/action. He fits more seamlessly into the picture of society that Thailand's elites envision. And there are already enough locals that don't (yet) fit into that picture, so from the pov of Thailand's Elites, why would they want to import more from overseas?

 

And if you've worked on the Street or with HNW folks in general, then you know that there tends to be a massive difference in idea quality and life outlook compared to, say, the average poster on this forum (proxy for the average farang in Thailand? Tho maybe not anymore). Gotta say - a move upmarket, whether realistic or not, would be kinda nice.

Then, maybe Thailand can pick up Jeffrey Epstein's clientele. They must be looking for a new home. And they all wear expensive shirts, drive high end sports cars, and hobnob with European royalty. Just the sort of "upmarket" move to improve quality of persons slithering their way into Thailand.

[Nino3]

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously missed all those extremely high class and very expensive resorts then. One is on Railay- the customers never have to mix with the common folk on longtails to get there- have a special posh boat just for them. Not the only one in LOS by any means.

Track of the Tiger company in Chiang Rai catered to wealthy customers for tours and accommodation.

Are you speaking of Rayavadee at the south end? If so, been there. It's an expensive resort and nothing more and yes they are all over the country. Your thought is that the wealthy are only interested in a high cost resort and the convenience of not mixing with the locals. Even the wealthy want a taste of the local experience. 

 

Track of the Tiger looks interesting. Thanks.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Nino3
Additional comment

[spidermike007]

On 12/17/2021 at 5:54 PM, JonnyF said:

Thailand has always been a bit of a mess but it was fun and cheap.

 

When it’s not fun and cheap anymore it’s just a mess.

 

If they want high end tourists they will have to up their game but I suspect this article is about face saving because in reality Thailand isn’t moving away from the mass market. The mass market is moving away from Thailand.

True. And they cannot up their game, as their fragile and delicate egos prevent them from seeing what needs to be done, and doing it. Real men act and move forward. Small boys talk and get little done. 

 

A pasteurized, homogenized, sanitized and purified version of Thailand is infinitely less appealing to most. Thailand is lost in space, with the goons in charge. 

[newnative]

55 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Unless you can provide a breakdown of the numbers that, IMO is meaningless. It could just mean that  Malaysian businessmen were coming over the border for fun on weekends more often. Each border entry is counted as a separate person.

     TAT does break down the numbers by country.  A little less than 11 million from China in 2019, for example.  True, each border entry is counted as a separate person.  But, the counting system hasn't changed so the overall numbers were rising each year.  Some countries, obviously, had larger increases than others.  Of the countries tracked, only two, Singapore and Australia, had slightly declining numbers.  

[Dogmatix]

A friend retired after 20 years working in Thailand and bought an elite card to avoid the hassles of retirement or marriage extensions.  One unexpected downside he found is that he can no longer get 5 year driving licences because the elite card 5 year visa is a fudge, i.e. a series of automatic 90 day extensions.  Thai immigration law doesn't allow more than 2 year visas and the elite card was originally intended for frequent visitors based outside Thailand.

 

I think that is a good example of how they screw up by taking short cuts and being unwiling to do the job properly by amending laws.  Their culture is very much form over substance.  Just make things sound good on the surface and they can attract stupid farangs to give them a lot of money before they find out they have been ripped off. Not much different from Thai bar girls.

[ericbj]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:07 AM, fredscats said:

..what you really need is a great stonking public sector pension,unfrozen OAP...untouchable!

A friend of mine had one of those.  The company went bankrupt.   He had to come out of retirement and return to work.

 

Addendum:  My mistake in reading 'public' as 'private'.
But this may be of interest:
https://www.cedarhousefinancial.co.uk/uk-state-pension-low-rank/

Edited December 19, 2021 by ericbj