Never Say Never

[mangkorn]

I'd like to solicit some thoughts on how to say "never," but not in the context of ไม่เคย (never before). I know all about that usage.

I'm thinking more about the imperfect tense, e.g.: "he never calls," or "I never go to Patpong," - which does not mean that it never did happen, but that it's something that does not happen as a matter of course, or has not happened for quite a long time (and probably will never happen again). And the query is how to express it as a simple declaration, without having to explain: "Well, I went there once, but I didn't like and so I don't go back there anymore blah blah..."

Any thoughts?

In terms of the future, if it's something you won't do again, I guess you generally say จะไม่ ... อีกครั้งเลย - but what about something that you will not ever do, not once, e.g.,: "I will never go to Pattaya?" I know there must be a lot of ways to express that, depending on the subject context, but what would be the shortest, in that sense of: "It ain't gonna happen, mate..."?

Is ไม่มืวัน the proper all-purpose idiom for that?

One teacher I had used to like to say: ไม่มืทาง - which is literally "no way" - but I think that many Thai people might hear that one as "I have no money," as in the common phrase - ไม่มืตางค์ (using the abbreviated สตางค์), because, even if you pronounce it perfectly, some Thais may think the farang is using the other expression but pronouncing it wrong. Or, then again, maybe because my teacher was a hip-hop grrrl, is it possible that average people don't use her phrase?

Cheers.

Edited June 9, 2007 by mangkorn

[Tilokarat]

I thought that the words for 'never' in Thai were, 'mai khoi' as in 'je teng ngaan khun mai khoi' (I will never marry you), which is what the lady in the avatar sometimes tells me. I hate that expression mai khoi!!!

[mangkorn]

I thought that the words for 'never' in Thai were, 'mai khoi' as in 'je teng ngaan khun mai khoi' (I will never marry you), which is what the lady in the avatar sometimes tells me. I hate that expression mai khoi!!!

Well, for your sake, I'm sorry to hear that.

I've seen a reference in that regard as ไม่เคยจะ ฯลฯ but I'm not quite sure if that's right, since the general future tense is จะไม่ ฯลฯ

Anyway, it's quite maddening to suss out the proper ways to express tenses, which seem to be rather ambiguously constructed in Asian languages, and most especially as regards the subjunctive moods. My native language has 18 rigidly defined tenses, and thus that is how my mind works; it drives me 'round the bend whenever people say "Thai is easy because it has no (or few) tenses," because I think in tenses, and the lack thereof makes that more difficult for me.

[Tilokarat]

Thanks for the sympathy, and for the correct reference and way to express the future tense for never. And I am sure that she is just joking...I think...I hope!!!

[CSS]

I'd like to solicit some thoughts on how to say "never," but not in the context of ไม่เคย (never before). I know all about that usage.

I'm thinking more about the imperfect tense, e.g.: "he never calls," or "I never go to Patpong," - which does not mean that it never did happen, but that it's something that does not happen as a matter of course, or has not happened for quite a long time (and probably will never happen again). And the query is how to express it as a simple declaration, without having to explain: "Well, I went there once, but I didn't like and so I don't go back there anymore blah blah..."

Any thoughts?

In terms of the future, if it's something you won't do again, I guess you generally say จะไม่ ... อีกครั้งเลย - but what about something that you will not ever do, not once, e.g.,: "I will never go to Pattaya?" I know there must be a lot of ways to express that, depending on the subject context, but what would be the shortest, in that sense of: "It ain't gonna happen, mate..."?

Is ไม่มืวัน the proper all-purpose idiom for that?

One teacher I had used to like to say: ไม่มืทาง - which is literally "no way" - but I think that many Thai people might hear that one as "I have no money," as in the common phrase - ไม่มืตางค์ (using the abbreviated สตางค์), because, even if you pronounce it perfectly, some Thais may think the farang is using the other expression but pronouncing it wrong. Or, then again, maybe because my teacher was a hip-hop grrrl, is it possible that average people don't use her phrase?

Cheers.

I'm interested in hearing what others write on this subject. I agree about the difficulty in the lack of tenses. I think it makes Thai easy for the beginner level because you don't have to worry about memorizing verb tenses, however, it makes it more difficult at the advanced level when you want to express more complex ideas. Without a rubric to refer to it's difficult to know how to parse together a sentence to express the complex idea that's floating around in the head.

My try at "never"

For he never calls or I never go to Pattaya I would probably say เขาไม่คอยโทรเลย ผมไม่คอยไปเลย (this might be translated as not usually, rather than never though) Actually, in both of these instances I might just keep it extremely simply and merely say เขาไม่โทรเลย ผมไม่ไปเลย I think that carries with it the feeling that he never calls or I never go without making a statement as to whether I've been there before. When we say I don't go to Pattaya and I never go to pattaya the only thing the "never" really adds is force. I don't go to pattaya already means that it doesn't happen. Adding never just makes in stronger. In which case we don't need to find a word for never, but just a word to make the sentence more forceful. If this is correct then simply saying ผมไม่ไป works and using เลย to make it forceful.

In terms of future I first thought about using your suggestion ไม่มีวัน and saying something like ไม่มีวันที่จะไป...which I think works. Something else I might say that is a little less foreceful is simply ไม่อยากไป... เขาไม่อยากโทรหาผมเลย Actually, I see ชอบ used in a manner implying repeated action or habit. For example เขาชอบลืม -he always forgets (not he likes to forget). I don't think I've ever heard it used in this manner as a negative though but maybe you could say เขาไม่ชอบโทรมาหาเลย He doesn't like to call/he never calls.

I see ไม่มีทาง as expressing a similar idea of there being no chance/way of something happening. (no path that gets you to that destination point) When will you like to eat durian? โอ้ ไม่มีทางหรอก I'm just playing with this and would love to be corrected.

None of those really provide a word translation or substitute for never, but I can't think of one that works.

edited to correct a couple English spelling mistakes.

Edited June 10, 2007 by CSS

[meadish_sweetball]

I'd like to solicit some thoughts on how to say "never," but not in the context of ไม่เคย (never before). I know all about that usage.

I'm thinking more about the imperfect tense, e.g.: "he never calls," or "I never go to Patpong," - which does not mean that it never did happen, but that it's something that does not happen as a matter of course, or has not happened for quite a long time (and probably will never happen again). And the query is how to express it as a simple declaration, without having to explain: "Well, I went there once, but I didn't like and so I don't go back there anymore blah blah..."

Any thoughts?

As far as I know, you are generally confined to using ไม่เคย here, even if it grates against your tense-tuned sensibilities. Another option is to specify the period and just negate: ช่วงนี้ผมไม่ไป Patpong เลย (cannot find the proper spelling of Patpong) or use some type of marker in the past that made you take the decision (similar to what you dont want to do ) ตั้งแต่ผมถูกโขมยกระเป๋าตางค์ ไม่มีทาง ที่ จะไป Patpong อีกเลย

In terms of the future, if it's something you won't do again, I guess you generally say จะไม่ ... อีกครั้งเลย - but what about something that you will not ever do, not once, e.g.,: "I will never go to Pattaya?" I know there must be a lot of ways to express that, depending on the subject context, but what would be the shortest, in that sense of: "It ain't gonna happen, mate..."?

Is ไม่มืวัน the proper all-purpose idiom for that?

Yes - both ไม่มืวัน and ไม่มีทาง can be used.

One teacher I had used to like to say: ไม่มืทาง - which is literally "no way" - but I think that many Thai people might hear that one as "I have no money," as in the common phrase - ไม่มืตางค์ (using the abbreviated สตางค์), because, even if you pronounce it perfectly, some Thais may think the farang is using the other expression but pronouncing it wrong.

This is not a point where Thai people misunderstand in my experience - I think I get the distinction between ท ต right as a rule, and even though the spelling of both words indicate a long vowel, in reality, only ทาง is actually pronounced with a long vowel. So with both these distinctions pronounced correctly I don't think people are likely to mistake one for the other.

Or, then again, maybe because my teacher was a hip-hop grrrl, is it possible that average people don't use her phrase?

Cheers.

In my experience people both use and understand it. ไม่มีทาง is a fairly strong value expression though, so it may not be the best one to use when disagreeing with somebody.

[meadish_sweetball]

I agree it can be frustrating with the lack of clearly defined tenses, but hey, at least it forces us to think and be creative. Excellent question, too. Hoping a native speaker would be willing to give us their opinion as well.

For he never calls or I never go to Pattaya I would probably say เขาไม่คอยโทรเลย ผมไม่คอยไปเลย (this might be translated as not usually, rather than never though)

Don't forget the tone marker - ค่อย. And I agree with the sense of 'not usually' - in fact this wording indicates that he sometimes does, albeit very infrequently.

Actually, in both of these instances I might just keep it extremely simply and merely say เขาไม่โทรเลย ผมไม่ไปเลย I think that carries with it the feeling that he never calls or I never go without making a statement as to whether I've been there before. When we say I don't go to Pattaya and I never go to pattaya the only thing the "never" really adds is force. I don't go to pattaya already means that it doesn't happen. Adding never just makes in stronger. In which case we don't need to find a word for never, but just a word to make the sentence more forceful. If this is correct then simply saying ผมไม่ไป works and using เลย to make it forceful.

Fully agree with your reasoning here.

Actually, I see ชอบ used in a manner implying repeated action or habit. For example เขาชอบลืม -he always forgets (not he likes to forget). I don't think I've ever heard it used in this manner as a negative though but maybe you could say เขาไม่ชอบโทรมาหาเลย He doesn't like to call/he never calls.

When ชอบ takes ไม่ before it, it does not indicate habit anymore, so that option does not work (it is grammatical as such but the meaning changes - it would be taken to mean that he actually does not like calling you).

[mangkorn]

Good point, meadish: even though สตางค is written with a long vowel, it is spoken as a short vowel. I know that, but I never thought about it before you mentioned it.

[soundman]

I'd like to solicit some thoughts on how to say "never," but not in the context of ไม่เคย (never before). I know all about that usage.

I'm thinking more about the imperfect tense, e.g.: "he never calls," or "I never go to Patpong," - which does not mean that it never did happen, but that it's something that does not happen as a matter of course, or has not happened for quite a long time (and probably will never happen again). And the query is how to express it as a simple declaration, without having to explain: "Well, I went there once, but I didn't like and so I don't go back there anymore blah blah..."

Any thoughts?

Just a quick note here.

After a couple of days researching & experimenting - ไม่เคย seems to be the only way "never" is used.

I understand what you are talking about with "he never calls," or "I never go to Patpong," however, trying to explain that & be understood to the Thai's I talked this over with was nearly impossible.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[withnail]

I always thought that ไม่ค่อย translated fairly well to I never. For those reading this who are not native English speakers remember that never can be close to not usually depending on the situation. To make it more obvious I would say

ไม่ค่อย ___ เลย

I'm not saying this is perfect but this is how I've been saying it.

For "I never go to Patpong (but I did once)" I might say ไม่ได้ไปตั้งนานเลย

[aanon]

I thought that the words for 'never' in Thai were, 'mai khoi' as in 'je teng ngaan khun mai khoi' (I will never marry you), which is what the lady in the avatar sometimes tells me. I hate that expression mai khoi!!!

i know i'm a bit late on this discussion, but are you sure that's what she's saying?

could be:

ja dtaeng ngarn...koon...mai kery (as for marriage...you...have never been)

จะแตงงาน...คุณ...ไม่เคย

or

ja dtaeng ngarn...koon...mai khoi (as for marriage...you...don't really...)

จะแตงงาน...คุณ...ไม่ค่อย...

(i guess i don't really understand who the lady in the avatar is, but i'm imagining this as some kind of fortune-telling situation)

__

"i never go to patpong (anymore)"

(ทุกวันนี้) เราไม่ได้ไป patpong แล้ว

"i never (hardly ever) play golf these days"

ส่วนกอล์ฟ เราไม่ค่อยได้เล่นแล้ว

"i'll never go to patpong again"

ไอ้ patpong เราไม่ไปอีกแล้ว

all the best.

[CSS]

I thought that the words for 'never' in Thai were, 'mai khoi' as in 'je teng ngaan khun mai khoi' (I will never marry you), which is what the lady in the avatar sometimes tells me. I hate that expression mai khoi!!!

i know i'm a bit late on this discussion, but are you sure that's what she's saying?

could be:

ja dtaeng ngarn...koon...mai kery (as for marriage...you...have never been)

จะแตงงาน...คุณ...ไม่เคย

or

ja dtaeng ngarn...koon...mai khoi (as for marriage...you...don't really...)

จะแตงงาน...คุณ...ไม่ค่อย...

(i guess i don't really understand who the lady in the avatar is, but i'm imagining this as some kind of fortune-telling situation)

__

"i never go to patpong (anymore)"

(ทุกวันนี้) เราไม่ได้ไป patpong แล้ว

"i never (hardly ever) play golf these days"

ส่วนกอล์ฟ เราไม่ค่อยได้เล่นแล้ว

"i'll never go to patpong again"

ไอ้ patpong เราไม่ไปอีกแล้ว

all the best.

I was hoping you would voice in on this topic. I always learn something. As far as the lady in the avatar is concerned, my guess is that he means the girl in the picture below his screen name.

[BigSnake]

[aanon]

css wrote: As far as the lady in the avatar is concerned, my guess is that he means the girl in the picture below his screen name.

ahh! of course. here's me thinking of hindu deities, thinking tilokarat was the person in the photo, and getting thoroughly confused! thanks css.

i still wonder what she was actually saying.

all the best.

[soundman]

For general information:

Patpong - พัฒพงษ์

Cheers

Soundman.

[Tilokarat]

No, she is not an Indian goddess yet, but it is true that she is the lady pictured under my name. For the benefit of people on the forum, I thought it best to post her picture rather than that of a 60-year old frustrated Canadian male in Toronto.

Actually, when she is in the mood, she tells me in English, 'I will never marry you'. Her next comment might be, 'when we marry....' I am the one trying to make sense in Thai by saying, 'waan jai baak wah teng ngan gup por tao mai khoi chai mai'