Tone Rules Question

[meadish_sweetball]

Another thing the middle class consonants have in common is that they are non-aspirated stops when occurring in syllable-initial position (at the beginning of a syllable).

This means that they are produced by

a.) stopping the airflow somewhere in the vocal tract, and

b.) when released, take no puff of air after them.

They have aspirated (=that take puffs of air after them) equivalents in the low and high classes.

Examples:

ป (mid) as opposed to พ (low) and ผ (high)

ต (mid) as opposed to ท (low) and ถ (high)

Note that the low and high class versions are aspirated.

[mangkorn]

In the interest of taking this deeper, and hopefully stirring up even more controversy and vitriol, we should note that อ aang is BOTH a consonant and a vowel. It's kinda special that way. It is a consonant only when used to anchor a vowel that begins a syllable, but at the end of a syllable it is a very much a vowel - in the sense that any other vowel is a vowel. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that Thai and foreign linguists classify อ aang as both, depending on where it comes in the syllable. Granted, the glottal stop that follows vowels at the end of syllables may be technically considered a consonant, but the characters themselves are surely vowels. Otherwise, it would mean that every Thai vowel is a hermaphrodite, and changes its nature depending on the venue in which it finds itself (sort of like some people), but I think that applies only to the อ aang. Thus, I see expatwannabe's point here: the vowels don't become consonants. The written representation may be considered as including an unwritten (unwrite-able) consonant, vis-a-vis the tone rules.

[mangkorn]

I should have made clear the distinction is between อ aang and สระ อ - but they are written the same way.

[Johpa]

In the interest of taking this deeper, and hopefully stirring up even more controversy and vitriol, we should note that อ aang is BOTH a consonant and a vowel. It's kinda special that way. It is a consonant only when used to anchor a vowel that begins a syllable, but at the end of a syllable it is a very much a vowel - in the sense that any other vowel is a vowel.

Yes, I deserve to whipped with a wet noodle for forgetting to mention, and thus leading to unnecessary confusion, that the symbol /อ/ is used as a consonant, glottal stop, in syllable initial position but functions as a vowel when it comes after a consonant, similar to the symbol /y/ in English, which can also take on both functions.

To go back to Svenske's comment that what middle class consonants have in common is that they are non-aspirated stops when occurring in syllable-initial position, many of the tone rules and consonant classes result from existing or previously (historical) phonetic environments such as vowel length, aspiration, or voicing.

Although in English we do not use tones to convey information, listen to the slight differences in both vowel length and tone when the final consonant stop changes between unvoiced (column 1) and voiced (column 2)

beat bead

height hide

rape rave

Beck beg

Note that if transliterated into proper Thai, the vowels in column 1 would be short vowels with high tones and column 2 would be long vowels with mid tones.

[Richard W]

Since we are talking about tone rules, what methods do people use to remember which class each consonant belongs to?

Just curious: are there other methods?

For the consonants in the five vargas, it's quite easy. Positions 1/1a are the mid consonants, positions 2/2a are the high consonants (and so sala, so ruesi and so suea would be in position 2a if the Indians hadn't minded gaps, though they don't fit the pattern of being modificatiosn of consoants in position 2), and positions 3, 3a, 4 and 5, voiced consonants in the conservative Indic languages, are low consonants. (This principle can be re-inforced by the fact that high consonants need corresponding low consonants and vice versa, though that's not a mnemonic I use.)

Yo, ro, lo and wo (without ho nam) are and have always been voiced, so they are also low consonants, though that's not how I learnt their tone classes. It also helps if you know that high partners are formed by prefixing ho hip, so they can't be high consonants.

I actually learnt the consonants outside the vargas as:

1) Yo yaw to wo waen are low.

2) So ruesi to ho hip are high

3) Lo chula, o ang and h nokhuk I just had to learn. Lo chula was a bit of a problem until I learnt that its Sanskrit equivalent is tho montho, a low consonant (cf. the doublet กีฬา / กรีฑา 'sport').

For o ang, the glottal stop consonant, I have the back-up aid that bo baimai and do dek used to be 'pre-glottalised'. For Lao yo ya, one can just remember that its Thai equivalent is properly the sequence อย (o ang yo yak), even if Thai has now mostly got rid of the o ang in this combination.

[mangkorn]

Since we are talking about tone rules, what methods do people use to remember which class each consonant belongs to?

Just curious: are there other methods?

For the consonants in the five vargas, it's quite easy. Positions 1/1a are the mid consonants, positions 2/2a are the high consonants (and so sala, so ruesi and so suea would be in position 2a if the Indians hadn't minded gaps, though they don't fit the pattern of being modificatiosn of consoants in position 2), and positions 3, 3a, 4 and 5, voiced consonants in the conservative Indic languages, are low consonants. (This principle can be re-inforced by the fact that high consonants need corresponding low consonants and vice versa, though that's not a mnemonic I use.)

Yo, ro, lo and wo (without ho nam) are and have always been voiced, so they are also low consonants, though that's not how I learnt their tone classes. It also helps if you know that high partners are formed by prefixing ho hip, so they can't be high consonants.

I actually learnt the consonants outside the vargas as:

1) Yo yaw to wo waen are low.

2) So ruesi to ho hip are high

3) Lo chula, o ang and h nokhuk I just had to learn. Lo chula was a bit of a problem until I learnt that its Sanskrit equivalent is tho montho, a low consonant (cf. the doublet ???? / ????? 'sport').

For o ang, the glottal stop consonant, I have the back-up aid that bo baimai and do dek used to be 'pre-glottalised'. For Lao yo ya, one can just remember that its Thai equivalent is properly the sequence ?? (o ang yo yak), even if Thai has now mostly got rid of the o ang in this combination.

Richard: you are far too much of a linguist geek - and I do mean that as a compliment.

I just can't imagine the average beginner student with no linguistics background making any sense out of what you posit here, although it is a valid answer to the query. My guess is, the mere mention of vargas and 2/2a positions would scare the bejeebus out of most people, and drive them away from even trying once and for all. It terrifies me, and I actually do know what they are, sort of. For my money, you just can't beat a ghost bearing the gift of a bag of rice, or a mischievous chicken pecking a little brat to death on top of the water urn...

Cheers.

[Richard W]

I just can't imagine the average beginner student with no linguistics background making any sense out of what you posit here, although it is a valid answer to the query. My guess is, the mere mention of vargas and 2/2a positions would scare the bejeebus out of most people, and drive them away from even trying once and for all.

Anyone who's scared or puzzled should look at the coloured squares in Thai tone classes made easy for me. I find that a much better way of presenting the consonant than those wall charts that just use alphabetical order with no consideration of the 'periodic' relationships - and yes, I do think of the periodic table. Thai's even got a law of octaves!

[mangkorn]

I just can't imagine the average beginner student with no linguistics background making any sense out of what you posit here, although it is a valid answer to the query. My guess is, the mere mention of vargas and 2/2a positions would scare the bejeebus out of most people, and drive them away from even trying once and for all.

Anyone who's scared or puzzled should look at the coloured squares in Thai tone classes made easy for me. I find that a much better way of presenting the consonant than those wall charts that just use alphabetical order with no consideration of the 'periodic' relationships - and yes, I do think of the periodic table. Thai's even got a law of octaves!

Agreed. The charts that go by alphabetical order, even with colour-coding for classes, are a poor method for learning the consonant classes. No sense of the relationships, and thus a very faulty pedagogic tool (But, I would still like to have one of those babies with those cute pictograms that are designed for primary school children. I've just never come across one during my roamings.)

[CSS]

CSS: I can't answer your query about mid-class consonants, but what did you do to memorize the high-class consonants?

I think between withail, meadish and richard I've gotten a pretty good answer as to why the mid-class consonants associated themselves together in my mind. Thanks.

I hadn't mentioned how I learned the high-class consonanst as I don't know that my method and all it's exceptions would be that helpful to others. Basically, I noticed that most/many of the high-class consontants had that initial "circle/loop" (where you start writing the letter) on the inside whereas their low consonant equivalent had it on the outside. Take ผ and พ for example. That gave me most of them, but I think for the rest I just recognized through use. I think I actually may have learned them backwards. Meaning, I knew the tone rules, from reading for pleasure I recognized words and knew how it was said with the correct tone, then knew that the consonant must therefore be either a high or low class consonant to produce the correct tone. Altogether I maybe had three nights where I actually just sat down and stared at the letters in their respective groups to memorize them. As I said, it worked and I know the groupings now but I don't think my methods were that great or will help anyone else much.

I think a great little consonant chart that Peace Corps produces helped too though. It separates them very nicely into easily remembered groups.

[eJai]

First of all, I would like to thank withnail, wasabi, expatwannabe, Johpa, meadish_sweetball, sabaijai, mangkorn, CSS and finally Richard W for your contributions to this thread, it was indeed very educational for me.

Thank you CCS for posting the 'Wonderful_Tone_Rules.doc', it was very generous of you.

mangkorn was right, I'm not a linguist, I'm just learning Thai as my hobby. Well, for someone who is asking about Tone Rules isn't it obvious that I'm just a beginner? I must admit that I do consider myself as being very fortunate to be in the midst of linguists even though I had problem following your discussions. Really look forward to learning a lot more from your guys in the future.

Correct me if I were wrong, without going into too much technicalities, can I assume now that the BLACK section of the chart was indeed correct? Thanks.

[mangkorn]

>>> Basically, I noticed that most/many of the high-class consontants had that initial "circle/loop" (where you start writing the letter) on the inside whereas their low consonant equivalent had it on the outside. Take ผ and พ for example.

Right, CSS. the inside=high, outside=low is a good method for some of them. I used that too, but forgot to mention it. In fact, I sometimes still need to fall back on that in a moment of uncertainty.

[Johpa]

mangkorn was right, I'm not a linguist, I'm just learning Thai as my hobby.

Thai is one of those languages that for most of us left brain dominant people, learning just the fundamentals of linguistics can be of great benefit.

The Thai alphabet, at least the first two thirds of the consonants, is ordered based upon the point of articulation starting from the back of the mouth towards the front . Within that order, the consonants are ordered based upon the method of articulation. And the newer letters that were added to represent sounds in Pali that are not used in Thai are at the end of the alphabet after the semi vowels (Y, L, R, W). I have never really committed the Thai alphabet to memory, but learning the basics of linguistics allows me to look up words in a Thai-English dictionary very quickly.

Also, again aimed at left hemisphere retentive types like myself, most of the tone rules, especially for "closed" or "dead" syllables, are simply phonological rules so you don't really have to know the class of the consonant to know the tone. And over time, and yes it is a long time, the brain, in its magnificence, tends to sort out these rules without a lot of conscious thought. But for the brain to do its work, you need to make the effort to be phonologically correct and get those unaspirated unvoiced consonants produced without aspiration and why it is important to get that glottal stop used properly, especially at the end of a short vowel, so as to be producing the correct phonological environment.

Sorry I have no such help with open syllables as I still sometimes can't always hear the difference between the Thai words for 'near' and 'far'. And it is open syllables that leads to Thai sentences like the Thai sentence for "New wood doesn't burn".

So go out and order that introductory linguistics 101 text book and focus on the basics of phonology, become comfortable with the bilabial fricative, and soon you too may become a cunning linguist, a skill admired by nearly half the population.

[eJai]

Thank you for your advice Jupha, do you have the ISBN for the "

introductory linguistics 101" textbook you mentioned?

Thanks.

[CSS]

mangkorn was right, I'm not a linguist, I'm just learning Thai as my hobby.

Thai is one of those languages that for most of us left brain dominant people, learning just the fundamentals of linguistics can be of great benefit.

The Thai alphabet, at least the first two thirds of the consonants, is ordered based upon the point of articulation starting from the back of the mouth towards the front . Within that order, the consonants are ordered based upon the method of articulation. And the newer letters that were added to represent sounds in Pali that are not used in Thai are at the end of the alphabet after the semi vowels (Y, L, R, W). I have never really committed the Thai alphabet to memory, but learning the basics of linguistics allows me to look up words in a Thai-English dictionary very quickly.

Also, again aimed at left hemisphere retentive types like myself, most of the tone rules, especially for "closed" or "dead" syllables, are simply phonological rules so you don't really have to know the class of the consonant to know the tone. And over time, and yes it is a long time, the brain, in its magnificence, tends to sort out these rules without a lot of conscious thought. But for the brain to do its work, you need to make the effort to be phonologically correct and get those unaspirated unvoiced consonants produced without aspiration and why it is important to get that glottal stop used properly, especially at the end of a short vowel, so as to be producing the correct phonological environment.

Sorry I have no such help with open syllables as I still sometimes can't always hear the difference between the Thai words for 'near' and 'far'. And it is open syllables that leads to Thai sentences like the Thai sentence for "New wood doesn't burn".

So go out and order that introductory linguistics 101 text book and focus on the basics of phonology, become comfortable with the bilabial fricative, and soon you too may become a cunning linguist, a skill admired by nearly half the population.

Thanks for that Johpa. It's interesting to know that the alphabet is ordered based (roughly) on the point of articulation.

That particular Thai sentence is fun isn't it? For those interested I'll write it here in Thai. It's a good practice. ไม้ใหม่ไม่ไหม้ máai mài mâi mâi Again that's a high tone, low tone, and two falling tones. It seems like we should also add to it ไม้ใหม่ไม่ไหม ใช่ไหม châi măi (rising tone)

[Richard W]

The Thai alphabet, at least the first two thirds of the consonants, is ordered based upon the point of articulation starting from the back of the mouth towards the front . Within that order, the consonants are ordered based upon the method of articulation. And the newer letters that were added to represent sounds in Pali that are not used in Thai are at the end of the alphabet after the semi vowels (Y, L, R, W).

That's a bit backwards. After the initial 'grid' made up of the vargas (วรรค), ko kai to mo ma, we have the letters for the articulations methods not used at every position - semivowels (Y R L W), voiceless fricatives (S S S), Indic voiced fricative (H) (always voiceless in SE Asia), the extra letter for Pali or Vedic Sanskrit (L - ฬ), the independent vowels (just one, and a consonant, since Rama Khamhaeng's time), and finally the late Thai addition (low H - ฮ). Note that the semivowels are in order of the point of articulation, and the (high) 's' letters are also in order of point of articulation of the corresponding Sanskrit sounds. One might argue about point of articulation of R and L, but R is traditionally associated with the retroflex stops and L with the dental stops.

When fricative letters were added for Thai, they were inserted into the initial grid but the three S letters were not moved into it.