Opinion: American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

[hotchilli]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

For the past ten years, Beijing has courted, bribed, invested, and threatened their way into domestic political conversations from Bangkok to Tokyo, from Seoul to Yangon. Like it or not, the region now lives under the shadow of Beijings growing military and economic might.

make that multiple decades or even centuries you'll be more accurate.

[Nicholas Paul KNIGHT]

Years of neglect by Washington and her allies....missed the next bit, years of corruption by Thai Chinese politicians who seek to make Thailand a place where the Chinese are obvious bedfellows. 

[Longwood50]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

 

For the past ten years, Beijing has courted, bribed, invested, and threatened their way into domestic political conversations from Bangkok to Tokyo, from Seoul to Yangon. Like it or not, the region now lives under the shadow of Beijings growing military and economic might.

I think this more accurately describes it.  It is not the arrogance of the West and the USA but a lack of understanding on how things work culturally here.  

As said, the Chinese courted, bribed, invested, and threatened.  The Chinese are far more aggressive than the West with the bribed and threatened methods of "diplomacy"   They are naive in their view that the rest of the world shares the Western way of running their country.  

The USA is also handicapped in that U.S. companies are specifically forbidden from bribing to further their business interests.  I am sure that concept is foreign to many countries including Thailand. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Longwood50

[puck2]

The headline: 

Opinion: american-and-western-arrogance-will-lose-this-region-to-china’s-influence/

 

is poore nonsense. Why ?

 

Arrogance concerning people is explained by: someone who is full of self-worth or self-importance and who tells and shows that they have a feeling of superiority over others.

 

I believe that many, many Western people think like this. It's the same attitude that the Thai military government has against it people. Chinas communist leaders are not different.

 

But thinking that the "arrogance" of Western countries is the reason for losing it's influence on Thailand and its SE neighbours is not logical. There are a lot of reasons why.

• The US invaded Vietnam not because of arrogance, but because of the fear of a (Chineses) communist expansion  in SE Asia.
• The Vietnamese had  fightings/wars against the Chinese over a long time because of the fear being one of the many provinces  in  China.  There is no connection to Western "arrgance", but to Chinese lust of occupation. Vietnamese people now fear mor their communist "collegues" than the West!
• In general, fighting the communists (of China) means fighting for democracy. That*s not a fight for "superiority", but for the freedom of people.
• After the coup here in Thailand the military "leader" hurrried to China like a crazy servant, not for the welfare of the Thais, but for his own/military success + surviving. The (democratic) Western states didn't "like" him.
• Reasons for the coup:  personal, not moral or politcal, not supported by the West, but no problem for the Chinese leader. That's the real danger for SE Asia.
• Once the geography of SE Asia was more important than nowadays. Going to or from China, Japan, Korea,  E-Russia was ging through SE Asias area-. Reason: Moldern technology like aeroplanes, big ships can go around, don't need to cross chanels etc, in SE Asia.,
• Maybe the leading technology and science  in Western countries + Japan, South Korea  caused some arrogance. Vice versa would be the same.

[vandeventer]

3 hours ago, sharecropper said:

That cretin Trump didn't help by pulling the US out of the TPP on his first day. The damage that idiot did to US interests around the world was incalculable.

Just look at the USA today! You really think Biden is doing a good job? Trump did more for the USA and the world since Reagan.

[Harveyboy]

6 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

American and western arrogance

 

Yeah, it's all our fault, it was America that released the Corona Virus, and China saved the world by creating a vaccine.............who writes this crapola......

 

when will Thailand realize China never does anything for 'nothing'  there will always be a price to pay............soon menu prices will be in Yuan and Baht.   Thailand  wise up, you will reap what you sow.   Peace

be a change from rubles and baht 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, ftpjtm said:

Then I guess we can agree that the paragraph I quoted from the OP was factually incorrect. 

 

And saying US vaccines didn't come because of hoarding is a misrepresentation of reality when the Thai government themselves delayed the first doses of US vaccines by months when they refused to allow them to be imported. 

If you are in possession of all the facts regarding the importation of the vaccine deliveries you may be right, somehow I doubt it.

 

In an interview with the BBC World Service, Mr Brown said the uneven distribution of Covid vaccines "is one of the greatest policy failures of our times" and had been caused by wealthy countries hoarding and stockpiling vaccines.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59761537

[ThaiFelix]

7 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

American and western arrogance

 

Yeah, it's all our fault, it was America that released the Corona Virus, and China saved the world by creating a vaccine.............who writes this crapola......

 

when will Thailand realize China never does anything for 'nothing'  there will always be a price to pay............soon menu prices will be in Yuan and Baht.   Thailand  wise up, you will reap what you sow.   Peace

Could you please provide a reliable source to prove covid was released by China.....I am sure there are lots of folk would like your exclusive evidence.

 

You could easily replace the word China with USA in your 2nd  paragragh and be closer to the truth as history has shown.

[Isaan sailor]

7 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I wouldn't call it "arrogance" that is costing Western influence to decline in Asia/SE Asia...more a combination of incompetent (President Obama did nothing to counter Beijing while it built-up its militarized "string of pearls" in the South China Sea during his administration) and China resuming its historical place as the dominant economic and political power in the region.

And guess who was Vice President during the Obama administration?  And guess what deals his prodigal son made with China?

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, timendres said:

I remember photos of Chinese citizens queued up at Suvanabhumi with mountains of PPE being flown back to China.

Back in Jan 2020 my niece was in the middle of an internship at a large hospital in Bangkok.   As she could speak fluent Chinese she got the job of dealing with the Chinese tourists coming in for a checkup. Not surprisingly they were terrified and wanted to get home to their families.

[ThaiFelix]

So difficult to understand how SE Asia would ally itself with China after all the US has done for the region.  Napalm, agent orange, fields still strewn till today with unexploded bombs and landmines, promises of war reparations still unpaid etc etc......so soon they forget these gifts of friendship and support.

[jayboy]

Poorly argued article and just wrong in places.It's absurd to suggest that Hanoi and Taipei (sic) are leaning towards China.The article somehow manages to omit reference to Japan and the ASEAN colossus, Indonesia, which is highly sceptical of expanding Chinese influence in the region.The West could certainly do better and Obama's pitch to Asia had very few positive results.But if one is talking about overweening arrogance and bullying, It's not the USA that is the prime culprit.That powerful bully is much closer to home.Some Asian leader prefer China's influence because they know however appalling their behaviour, the rulers in China will never question it.

[ftpjtm]

44 minutes ago, sandyf said:

If you are in possession of all the facts regarding the importation of the vaccine deliveries you may be right, somehow I doubt it.

Not in possession of all the facts, but furious beyond belief while in Thailand waiting to get vaccinated and hearing that the Thai government was blocking importation of quality vaccines, while making excuses for the Chinese vaccines they were over paying for.

[chilly07]

Frankly the USA and "the West" have never in the recent past been influential in SE Asia. China has ruled the roost since WW2 and Thailand like her neighbours is owned by Chinese investors.

[scorecard]

8 hours ago, Excel said:

"Take Thailand for example, years of neglect by Washington and her allies have ensured that today’s batch of leaders look to Beijing for investment, military equipment, and direction. "

 

I would suggest that is not correct. It is more likely that as the US and the Western nations have cracked down on bribe paying and other corrupt financial activities over the years, Thailand and it's corrupt leaders have gone elsewhere where dodgy deals and back-handers can be undertaken. Nothing to do with neglect by the West, but everything to do with Thailand's regime leaders and benefactors lining their own pockets without ethical or moral considerations.

And of course the good old USA is free from corruption, vote buying and money making cronyism?

[wombat]

What do you mean lose?

Aren't these sovereign countries?

With the way western governments behave themselves why would any country let them get close?

[wombat]

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

specifically forbidden from bribing to further their business interests. 

I find that naive that you think it doesn't happen.

[placnx]

7 hours ago, Dcheech said:

They shocked me also. Obama cared more about the wall street implosion disaster and the end game of Weapons of Mass Destruction Iraqi desert invasion fiasco, than countering China.

Just what was that guy thinking?!  

Obama and his advisers bailed out Wall Street's mortgage fiasco but did nothing effective to prevent millions of foreclosures. As a result many lower middle class people are still renting and have no chance to buy a home. Having a home with a paid-off mortgage is the typical way that these Americans would save for retirement.

 

Chinese have a record of looking down on Black people, and Obama being a political neophyte did not help, so it was to be expected that they would act with impunity regarding Tibet and Xinjiang and the "islands" in the South China Sea.

 

[placnx]

1 hour ago, vandeventer said:

Just look at the USA today! You really think Biden is doing a good job? Trump did more for the USA and the world since Reagan.

In a bipartisan spirit, let's admit that we are now enduring the Fourth Failed Presidency!!!

[placnx]

6 hours ago, Enzian said:

History. I hate to think what Thailand would be like now without the past 200 years of Chinese economic imperialism and influence. One out of every 6 Thais have a significant if not majority element of Chinese background. American culture will continue to be important, but this is Chinese country in some ways, maybe just not as much as Singapore for example.

Thailand was developing gradually in the early 20th century, in an orderly fashion before the big Chinese influx. While some of these more recent Chinese arrivals work to maintain their "Chineseness", many of the old Chinese families I've encoutered are well-assimilated to Thai culture and values.

[Russell17au]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

You can remember it any way you want, doesn't make it right.

The first vaccines into Thailand were AZ from South Korea in Feb 2021, followed by the Chinese.

The Thai government didn't get their order for AZ because of a dispute between the UK and EU, the order was diverted to India but got caught up in an export ban. In the end they had to wait for the Thai production facility to start up in June 2021.

COVAX wouldn't have made any difference, GDP was too high to be at the front of the queue and at that point in time the only vaccine COVAX had available was the Chinese.

Even Australia was court up in that EU export ban of AZ. Australia's order was diverted to EU countries after Australia had even paid for the AZ.

[humbug]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

What you do not understand is what the Thais understand.

What the Thais understand is that in the 30's about 12% of the people in Thailand were Chinese nationals and a significant percentage of today's population are of Chinese descent.  Nothing whatsoever to do with the west or their arrogance, it is a cultural affiliation, something difficult for foreigners to understand.

140 years ago , there were hardly any Chinese, the first major immigrant boat was in the 1880's, since then, the Chinese have assimilated and invaded the country, and been allowed to do it by greedy siam families, still the chinese are a huge minority compared to the darker skin thais

 

but this article is written by a chinese/thai, like many in local media they are being paid to promote positive spin chinese articles, and negative spin articles of the west

 

but nothing more can be done, when you have greedy generals and chinese/thai business elite, who have signed the corrupt belt and road agreements, and the 20 year national strategy, which is really chinese/thai national strategy to allign secretly many legal/laws with Beijing

 

god help the darker skin thais, more enslavement, more whitening cream, and much more poverty, while their white skin from cold climate Chinese nationalists can lord it up

[humbug]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Poorly argued article and just wrong in places.It's absurd to suggest that Hanoi and Taipei (sic) are leaning towards China.The article somehow manages to omit reference to Japan and the ASEAN colossus, Indonesia, which is highly sceptical of expanding Chinese influence in the region.The West could certainly do better and Obama's pitch to Asia had very few positive results.But if one is talking about overweening arrogance and bullying, It's not the USA that is the prime culprit.That powerful bully is much closer to home.Some Asian leader prefer China's influence because they know however appalling their behaviour, the rulers in China will never question it.

Many local media have alligned with china, and will spin a positive China angle, and look down or present a negative western angle, some do it for money, some do it, as they are chinese nationalists, hard to tell, as many local media, even online are chinese thai, can you get anywhere, anymore if you darker skin, dunno anymore, completely invaded the business community and running of the country, just dunno even with a revolution, is it possible to unwind so much of the Han chinese nationalism going on in the country, creating a glass ceiling against western competitor races and darker skin thais

Edited March 28, 2022 by humbug

[NeoDinosaw]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

If you are in possession of all the facts regarding the importation of the vaccine deliveries you may be right, somehow I doubt it.

 

In an interview with the BBC World Service, Mr Brown said the uneven distribution of Covid vaccines "is one of the greatest policy failures of our times" and had been caused by wealthy countries hoarding and stockpiling vaccines.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59761537

Is Mr Brown the husband of Mrs Brown from Ireland with all those children ?

[Walker88]

4 hours ago, MasterBaker said:

i think China's influence is better than American's. especially with potato head running the show in Washington

Frankly, that 'potato head' has the right approach.

 

Does the US really need the juntas of Myanmar and Thailand as allies? China isn't going to upset the US too much because it needs the market, and doesn't want the US to get all 'democratic' in its view of Taiwan, an independent nation ruled by the self-appointed and answerable to no one CP for a sum total of ZERO seconds (hardly a 'rogue' province). China sees the trouble putin is having in Ukraine, so knows now is not the time to 'lose face' via a Million Man Swim to try to conquer democratic and successful Taiwan.

 

Under Pres Biden the US has cordial relations with the democracies of Japan and South Korea, an adequate relationship with Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia, and kind of ignores the Philippines. Biden might even be able to resurrect the TPP, the program that would have gone a long way to rein in China had not the last guy given China the gift of having the US pull out.

 

Just as the old colonialists and imperialists were eventually hated by the people of the countries Brits and French and Dutch abused, so will countries come to hate China...including its B&R Initiative, which is just imperialism by another name. (Just as China exploited Myanmar under SPDC, it is doing so again under the Neo Junta....doing slash and burn timber extraction in Kachin State, the PLA kidnapping Kachin women to sell as brides in China, mining precious metals and rare earths, adding to its port in Yakhine State so that it can bookend India with Yakhine and Gwadar in Pakistan, etc.)

 

Oh, and that 'potato head' not only has presided over 6.9% US GDP growth (vs the former guy who delivered the lowest term economic performance in 40 years and even before Covid was in the bottom quartile of all Administrations since the end of WWII), the largest number of jobs ever created in a single year, lowered the 2021 deficit by $350 billion over the clown he followed---and is projected to lower it even more in FY2022---has a massive plan to actually do something useful for the country (infrastructure), rather than just give more tax cuts to the Donor Class, but Pres Biden also pulled NATO together again after the abject disaster that was '45', so that NATO can face down the murderous psychopath that previously got away with butchering Chechnya, Georgia and Syria, as well as domestic critics like Litvinenko, Nemtsov, Politkovskaya, etc.

[djayz]

5 hours ago, pokerface1 said:

Was there ever a time when business was do any other way in Asian countries. I think not. If the west  want to compete they have to play the same game and fill the brown paper envelopes to seal the deals.

So you're saying we should drop our standards, ethics and moral codes? Everything our forefathers fought hundreds of years to achieve should be dumped overnight just so we can play their game at their level? How about we pull their sorry ar$e$ out of the middle ages and into the 21st century. 

[Caldera]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

Take Thailand for example, years of neglect by Washington and her allies have ensured that today’s batch of leaders look to Beijing for investment, military equipment, and direction.

The unelected leaders of Thailand simply feel cozier with the unelected leaders of China. End of.

[thailand49]

It isnt just the U. S.  or the West it is every countries,companies and person who buys a product from China for start when people stop buying appliances, cell phones etc etc that would be a good start we know that isn't going to happen just like we know no one is going to do <deleted> to China for Covid. When it comes to Thailand some of their leaders in the past have stated China is their brother and the manner as to how they have treated foreigner " dirty " during the pandemic even having to buy their junk unproven vaccine while the U. S. Has nearly given them 100,000 million in equipment and vaccine compare to what China has given? 

No matter what U. S.  Does it would never be enough just listen to their health minister Anutin criticize the U. S.  2 months back personally selling them F-35 is a mistake. Let them go their leaders are too far up the anal canal to turn back. ????

[relax33]

9 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

when will Thailand realize China never does anything for 'nothing'  there will always be a price to pay............soon menu prices will be in Yuan and Baht.   Thailand  wise up, you will reap what you sow.   Peace

Sure, China is the largest foreign holder of US Treasury bills if you include HK's Share..
They have been bankrolling the US National Debt for 30 years n they received precisely zero gratitude n had literally don't it for nothing (zero interest rates) besides getting bashed by the US everyday (not letting it breathe) as the US is so paranoia of losing it's position as the world's leading economic power .. which is inevitable as it had lost it's economic competitiveness a a nation ...
Look at all the blah blah on the Belt n Road initiative, why didn't any western countries or Japan started such an initiative if it were that profitable .. ha
U bet China would be delighted to have it listed as an IPO if western countries are willing to assume a majority stake in it

[RocketDog]

9 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

American and western arrogance

 

Yeah, it's all our fault, it was America that released the Corona Virus, and China saved the world by creating a vaccine.............who writes this crapola......

 

when will Thailand realize China never does anything for 'nothing'  there will always be a price to pay............soon menu prices will be in Yuan and Baht.   Thailand  wise up, you will reap what you sow.   Peace

Well, it's been fashionable for decades to complain if the USA enters your country to render aid, or ignores your country and doesn't give your financial aid. It's always nice to have somebody else to blame your country's problems on.

 

The entire world has been complicit in standing by and watching as China works its expansionist game of dominance. The money has proven irresistibl. The fact that it's still considered a 'developing nation' is fatuous.

 

Now the world has reached a point where all nations must strenuously and loudly push back on Chinese policy, regardless of the consequences. As you say, Thailand and all other SE Asian countries will have to make that decision sooner than others.

 

Failure to do so will mean the demise of freedom everywhere. Time is running out.

 

I personally doubt that the awakening will happen soon enough to stop this clear and present danger.