Animal Rescue

[hellohello]

A small group of us (Thai & Farang) want to start a neutering program on our island. We are just in the planning stages. I thought I'd first ask the experts on this forum.

Could you please share your experiences, if any?

Kindly

HH

In Krabi

[sbk]

hellohello, may I suggest contacting Shevaun, the founder of PAC here on Koh Phangan? She has extensive (and recent) experience in this and can probably give you some pointers. pacthailand.org is their site.

Another good one could be Samui Dog Rescue, they have been helping dogs on Samui for years.

Good luck to you!

[Nienke]

And not to forget November Rain (Hua Hin Dog rescue), Allyt (Care for Dogs, Chiang Mai) and Elfe (Samui). All three you can PM and I bet they can give you loads of detailed info. Also Sherry from Soi Dog Rescue (Google for website) in Bangkok is a very good source.

If you can get info from all of them, you can't go wrong anymore

Nienke

[hellohello]

Sorry for my delay, I was out of the country. Thanks SBK and Nienke.

I was hoping some of the "experts" whom post on this forum could post here, rather than me contacting everybody privately. Perhaps it will be beneficial to others?

If I may, I will begin with what we come up with so far:

Presently we are starting-up with about 10 people with different levels of expertise (including Web designers, Tv folks, Artists). Our first step is to get some funding rolling so we can hopefully start some neutering.

We’ve had a meeting, have a website drafted and a URL. We plan on using collection cups around the whole island; we have a preferred Vet and a temporary shelter for surgery (over low season only).

Presently, our Or Bor Tor is sending a Vet for free once a week for the locals; we are utilizing his services as much as possible. (Obviously they saw there was a need)

One of our biggest hurdles, I feel, is that we are all business owners and are busy over our very short 6-month High Season. Although if all is in place, I feel we could collect plenty of funding for the next year.

All of your thoughts and comments are appreciated! THANK YOU, HH

[Jet Gorgon]

Very thoughtful and prudent of you and your friends, HH.

You should do OK with an off-season programme. May I also suggest you do rabies injections, too? Before Samui and KPN had rescue centres or vets, the gov't health authorities came round every year with free rabies shots but you had to take the dog to the clinic (maybe they still do?). As long as I had an ice box, they gave me as many vaccines and tags as I needed for the strays and village dogs. Had to buy a few syringes and one needle for each vaccine, but cheap. Easy to learn how to inject and takes about 5 seconds. Put the tourists to work braiding collars out of that plastic wrapping string for the rabies tags. Gawd! Never seen so many strays feel so important as when you tied a collar on them.

But yes, as Sbk and Nienke noted, get in touch with NR and Else here and the dog rescues. They'll give you loads of info from all their experience.

Best of luck.

[Allyt]

Hi there Hello hello & thanks to the other posters for their valuable support for our group ( Care for Dogs) in Chiang Mai.

Can I suggest you might get a more productive response to your request for information, if you set out your objectives in a business style case and declared ( to yourselves as well as the readers here ) what you aimed to achieve in a given period, how you will measure your sucess and then how you intend to go about delivering what you promise.

However, from our perspective, it is necessary to establish a commited team of hands on folks who will touch, medicate, nurse dogs through thick & thin and be ready to get emotionally involved & not just do PR work & fundraising albeit invaluable. These qualities (hands on ) are essential as the process of sterilisation is not just about round up & snip its about identifying the work to be done, which might include TvT, heartworm and the whole book of medical terms that would waste your precious sterilisation money, should you ignore the issues that might otherwise kill the poor creatures, following through with aftercare and ensuring records are kept to enable future identification.

Set yourself a target based upon average budget allowance and only increase the target when funds allow.

Learn to say no - in cases that WILL be presented before you and may reduce the funds that should be spent on worthy causes.

Dogs were possible on the island before humans. Will you ever sterilise the island? Be realistic and dont over stretch your resources, think of the big picture for the longterm.

You will get dumped on, both in terms of threats to kill if you don't act or by sacks full of pups, plan how you will deal & respond to these very carefully.

If you start a sterilisation program, other programs (adoption, healthcare, feeding & education etc) will soon be at your door. Think ahead in your business plan about how these will feature and ensure you do not open up a floodgate for the whole community to knock on your door and divert you from your original objectives.

I could go on but will await further input from you (hello hello) before suggesting that eggs be sucked in ways that you may already be familiar with.

Warm regards

Ally

By the way, do drop in on our sites: carefordogs.org or allycfd.blogspot.com for more

[elfe]

thank you very much for your efforts in setting up an animal rescue/neutering facility in koh lanta, i'm sure it's very much needed there as anywhere here.

i'm afraid i can't be of much help as to founding and establishing an org as i'm just a private animal home here which takes in dogs in need, coddle them up and then they live here with me in house and garden as normal pets. i get support from animal lovers in europe and of course also neuter my dogs etc but it is not possible for me to do in a larger scale as i'm just by myself here. i plan to do more, esp neutering strays, in the future but for this i have to have the funds first. at the moment the many animals which are already here in elfesworld are main priority, also to find homes for some of them, even in europe. i have very good contacts in germany and already foster homes for some of the animals, at the moment we are planning and organising flying animals to europe which is quite affordable if you find people who take them with them on their flights.

as many animals here came as puppies they cannot be released after curing and are used to having a good home. here in thailand unfortunately it is very hard to find reliable and acceptable forever homes who would take a mix dog. so after the transportation and rehoming is established i can take in some more after some have left and so on...

for the future i plan to open a small vetclinic which will mainly neuter strays which can be put back in their surroundings and don't need to be taken in here. there is already dogrescue center samui here who do a great job and neuter as many as they can, but they have only one vet and it is never enough unfortunately... only in my area so many pregnant or mothers with puppies, intact males and all the misery which results from it. i cannot see this everyday on my ways so i want to do something and make a difference for as many i can personally.

good luck with your animal rescue, there will be hard times and lots of problems and tears to overcome but it's more than well worth in the end and for all the animals you will be able to help and prevent more misery.

feel free to ask me anything, i'm happy to try and help, but i think the people from soidogrescue in bkk and carefordogs in chiang mai are the ones who can give you all the advice and info from their experience you need and i found them more than friendly and happy to do so in the past also nienke has a huge knowledge of all the dogrescue related issues and sure will give her input whenever she can

[hellohello]

Thanks for your valuable help so far. Keep em coming! I will forward this link on to our "group".

[November Rain]

I tried to add a really long post this morning, but the whole bloomin’ thing (40 mins worth) disappeared into cyberspace. So, I’m writing this on Word & pasting it in. I hope that I remember all the points I’d initially made & I haven’t been online to check if there are any posts since Allyt’s, so if there are & I’m repeating, sorry.

OK, I agree with Allyt , in everything she’s said, but I’ll expand on that if I may. I apologise if I sound like a doom & gloom merchant. That is not because I disagree with what you’re planning on doing. On the contrary, I think it’s great that you & your friends want to get involved & do this. But, to illustrate Ally’s point about going in with a plan, I’ll let you know what happens when you don’t. That was me. We didn’t think it through, and we’ve lurched from one crisis to another. I’ve been doing this for nearly 5 years now & only now am I beginning to get things right & prioritized.

Right: Fundraising – from your post, you seem to think this won’t be a huge problem. What makes you think that? Have you got definite offers of help from individuals/businesses/hotels etc? Sponsorship from pharmaceutical or dog food companies? Where will your main funds come from? The local region? Nationally? Overseas via website & PR? Collection boxes will not get you enough money. You need far more than that. BTW, if putting out collection boxes, you need permission/authorization (written) from the Tessadban or the police. Will you be a registered charity/foundation? Under the umbrella or member of a larger organization ie WSPA, AAF, or similar? All of these are things to consider or research.

Funds have been a constant problem for us. We’ve found ourselves on the brink of closure too many times to count. Last year, my Mum & I paid for the dog center ourselves 7 months out of 12. This year we don’t have the money to even do that…

Next: Education – How are you going to get over the message that N&R is the best option, better than culling or removal? If you look at any thread about soi dogs on TV, you’ll see people like me, Elfe, sbk, Nienke, JG, arguing against culling and putting forward the case for neutering. I don’t think we have changed even one person’s mind, sadly. Many people believe the soi dogs should be killed. Still more think that they should be removed to a pound somewhere (who cares where or about the logistics of this, as long as they’re out of the way?) Then, you’ll find many Thais won’t allow their dogs to be neutered – even for free. They sometimes want the cute pups (until they grow up), and they can be very resistant about neutering males – a big macho thing! Then, you find those from all nationalities that think that relatives won’t breed, so they don’t need to neuter (if I had 100 baht for every time I’ve heard “but that’s his mother!”), some people really don’t understand that dogs have no concept of incest! Education programmes & lots of material about the facts & your aims in Thai & English, available all over your catchment area will help.

Illness: As Ally pointed out, you’re going to bring in sick dogs, ie VG, pyometra, womb prolapses, blood parasites or just good old (bad old) mange & malnutrition. What will you do with them? Will you have somewhere to care for them? VG will put your costs way up – and is highly contagious, so you need isolation for the course of treatment – 6 weeks or more, often.

Dumping: Ally’s right again. This will happen. It happens all the time to us. People dump dogs in boxes, tie them to our gates, or even dump them in my garden. How will you stop this? And if you come up with a way that works, please tell me, seriously. We need it to stop, too.

Who will staff it? Do you have people that have a lot of experience with scared soi dogs? Many will bite through fear & you need to know how to handle them. How are you planning on doing this (I mean the whole thing, not just stopping dogs from biting)? Having your own neuter facility or bringing in dogs for the vet to do, on a one-by-one basis? If the former, have you been to or done a neuter clinic before?

OK, I think that’s enough for now. I hope you don’t think I’m being critical in any way, but these are all things I’ve had to learn the hard way, and if you can plan some of these things before they happen to you, you’ll have an easier time than we’ve had.

[November Rain]

BTW, do not start an actual rescue center unless you have more money, practical help & time than you know what to do with. It's not a good idea. I know. We took this over with 35 healthy adults & now have 140 - chronic illness, paraplegia, behavioural problems, blindness, retardation, dementia, pups & healthy adults whom we can't home. Dogs are my entire life, from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed (and sometimes getting up in the night). It's a responsibility that snowballs & unless you want it to be your life 24/7, don't do it.

I don't mean that to sound bitter. I truly love all 140 dogs & they love me. But I wish someone had got me to consider what I was getting myself into, before I did it. I sometimes feel like one of those mad cat ladies in NY City!

[Nienke]

Besides the valuable info that has been given already, I think you should realize that starting a N/S program quickly can end up being a daytime job. I've seen it happening to the hard-core at Care for Dogs, Lannadog Rescue, Soi Dog Rescue and you can read it from NR's and Elfe's posts.

Often a club starts with a (big) group of enthousiastic people, but more too often only a very few will remain who then will do the real hard work. Keeping enough volunteers you can really rely on is difficult.

This is not to discourage you and your group, but this is certainly something you have to take in consideration when you make a (business) plan. I put 'business' in between brackets, because I noticed that many people felt ackward when I said that an animal rescue organisation should be run as a business. Why? Because you need money to cover your costs.

I've made some plans some years ago. They are not perfect, but you may be able to use them as a guideline and adapt them to your own situation. I'll PM to you. Will eat first though

Nienke

[elfe]

great posts by nr and all so very true. also nienke is so right stating that you sometimes cannot rely on people for long time or they will run off when facing problems... a good team is very important and will mostly establish during time.

if you are planning to have a shelter or after-care established you will need reliable and experienced staff. it's not only the neutering, it's all the diseases you will soon be confronted with and which can be devastating for the whole shelter if not taken care pedantic properly and will result in more misery for the dogs than they were in before that... you have to consider first if you have the time (as said 24/7) and possiblity do have the dogs at your place or very close by or have someone living there who really cares...

you will end up with many many dogs very soon which you cannot put anywhere again and which you will not be able to rehome.

what will you do with all these dogs - what is their future?

if you don't want to have a big loss of dogs in the shelter you need to have: many seperate spaces for them, houses to live in etc., lots of time, comittment and hard work (shopping, cooking, cleaning, washing beddings, observing, cleaning wounds and bandage, giving medicine or iv, getting knowledge about diseases and how to help and treat them, and most work: cleaning all day and also at night sometimes) and this on top of the other work which has to be done (pr work, picking up dogs, neutering, etc etc).

i would recommend to start out with an ambulant neutering programme, where locals or anyone can bring in dogs for spaying and will be taken home after again. so you won't need a shelter at first and can learn and get into this 'business' more slowly...

at the same time you could establish contacts to overseas or within thailand to be able to rehome dogs in the future, like finding orgas in the us or europe who would support and foster unwanted animals until they found a new home...

just my 2 cents...

[Nienke]

i would recommend to start out with an ambulant neutering programme, where locals or anyone can bring in dogs for spaying and will be taken home after again. so you won't need a shelter at first and can learn and get into this 'business' more slowly... at the same time you could establish contacts to overseas or within thailand to be able to rehome dogs in the future, like finding orgas in the us or europe who would support and foster unwanted animals until they found a new home...

Even with a neutering/spaying program, there is not only the operation. There's the after care. If the vet or your group is not doing this, the locals need to be educated on how to do.

And as is already stated, You will come across dogs that have (hidden) diseases. These need to be recognized and taken care of BEFORE the operation (when possible), or the chance will be that the dog dies on the operation table or just after.

I've seen it a couple of times, a dog that seemed healthy got sick after the operation. Obviously the dog's immune system was fighting some kind of virus or bacteria that wasn't visible. The stress of the operation turned out to be just a little too much and the disease came through.

Further, with all the street dogs you WILL come across (severely) diseased dogs. What you're going to do? Be tough and say 'only spay and neuter', or will you care for them? Absolutely something to keep in consideration. Because these dogs need care often for a long term, cost loads of money and what are you going to do with them once they are cured? Some, you just can't put back on the street, and thus they are the start of your shelter.

Wish you good luck and lots of fun in the creation (because creating can be lots of fun) of your organisation,

Nienke

[elfe]

And as is already stated, You will come across dogs that have (hidden) diseases. These need to be recognized and taken care of BEFORE the operation (when possible), or the chance will be that the dog dies on the operation table or just after.

I've seen it a couple of times, a dog that seemed healthy got sick after the operation. Obviously the dog's immune system was fighting some kind of virus or bacteria that wasn't visible. The stress of the operation turned out to be just a little too much and the disease came through.

yep, that's a big problem unfortunately. as you don't know the dogs for some time which come in , some severe diseases or damage is often overlooked. actually the dogs which are up for neutering should have a full check first... which is more expensive and time consuming. even my fit and healthy (??) german shepherd girl which i brought for neutering some years ago almost died during the operation due to heart failure from the sedative. they could not even cut her open and i had to revive her many times all day and the following night...

that's why i think it's very important to keep the number of dogs you treat/neuter to the minimum you can really care for and spend time and effort if anything goes wrong during or before/after operation.

there will be loss, but there are ways to keep them at a minimum. you can imagine how many dogs die in the big shelters as there is just not enough time and staff to watch and treat each of them properly...

and if you have some dogs sheltered, you at best need someone living there who can watch the dogs interacting and if necessary takes action and separates them. it will happen that after you left the scene dogs which seemed to get along well with each others will start fights or chose one for toy and victim and this can lead for immense suffering for certain animals too...

[Nienke]

One thing that hasn't be mentioned yet (I think ) is to start with a small pilot area. That can be a temple, a market place, the neighborhood of one of the volunteers etc.

If you start to big it quickly can become too overwhelming, and then people tend to give up quickly as well.

Temples can be very nice as there often is already a Monk or a person who (sort of) loooks after the dog, and most of the time they welcome your help.

But then, Ally can fill in the details much better then I do, as she directly works with Temples.

So, Ally... ? Please ...

Nienke

[hansa]

I would like to say THANKS SO MUCH! For all of your helpful information. It is an eye opener. I am the initiator of this and have actually been trying to get this on its feet for 2,5 years.

And many things you have written about has already happened

- enthusiastic people slowly fading away

- dumping animals at my place (I seem to be equivalent to a temple since this is a 90% Muslim Island with only two temples which one of them will not accept animal, so lets dump them at the farlang animal lady)

- using a huge amount of personal money on sick animals (thank god for free second hand clothes and such : ) )

All of this before even getting started….

But I will not give up, thanks to many good pointers & advise, maybeeeee, others and I will be able to help more animals in need. And not fall through buy making the same mistakes (have already done of course) Either it be a animal or a human being, if you even just help one out of misery it is better than nothing.

I do have one question though:

Do any of you have experience about educating programs for Muslim children and adults? If so, I would REALLY appreciate to get a copy, both In Thai and English (I know I am asking for allot) but this would be a big time saver.

Also any pointers about working with Muslim authorities? In this start up phase, I would not like to start on the wrong “foot” if you know what I mean.

Again thanks so much, If possible I will try to get some of the group to visit, one of the near by animal organizations. To help out, and learn what we are getting into.

Keep in touch!

[LookSaMoon]

I will share these info to my friends at chihuahua club

and wish the best for you guys.