‘America is killing itself’: world reacts with horror and incomprehension to Texas shooting

[mikeymike100]

16 hours ago, Neeranam said:

it's common decency -  many have died, so it's inappropriate to go on about shooting animals and the benefits of gun laws, when obviously there are none.

As long as any poster does not break the forum rules they should be allowed to post their opinion. The whole point is to get different ideas and debate them, everyone has the same right. Whether you disagree or not is immaterial.

You may think its inappropriate, but others do not, everyone has the same right to post!

[fredwiggy]

34 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

We're getting off topic but target shooters aren't interested in the amount of bullets they can fire but getting every one right in the center of the target where it scores the highest. Real hunters uncompromising want to use the most accurate weapon possible, not "good enough". Bird hunter where I come from use shotguns.

There are target courses where rapid fire is used.

[Excel]

There are some really sick bar stewards on here in my opinion discussing murdering helpless animals for the fun of it when this is a threat initially discussing the wholesale slaughter of young children.

[Lacessit]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Why is it so hard for you to understand Sandy Hook, Uvalde and all the rest of the mass shootings in America result from the ready availability of semi-automatic weapons such as AR15's to all and sundry? How many children would have been killed if a shooter had only a bolt-action weapon with a five-shot magazine?

Sorry, I'm tired of looking at BS excuses.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed.  The topic is not about how many deer kill people, it's titled "America is killing itself".   Stay on topic or face a suspension.  

[ozimoron]

"He wouldn't have done the exact same thing with a bat or a bomb or some sort of improvised device or a machete, he's a great kid, don't judge him," he said.

 

The 18-year-old suspect, who allegedly murdered 19 children and 2 teachers, reportedly was armed with a Daniel Defense AR-15 rifle and 1,6000 rounds of ammunition.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-jr-guns/?traffic_source=Connatix

 

[Thunglom]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:03 AM, RichardColeman said:

If the killer had been a white guy, this would be 24/7 on every new station in the USA until the US mid-terms.

...and if he was black? Muslim? - basi=cally you are making a highly racist comment.

[Thunglom]

Some figures

There were 1.5 million of them between 1968 and 2017 - that's higher than the number of soldiers killed in every US conflict since the American War for Independence in 1775. 

In 2020 alone, more than 45,000 Americans died at the end of a barrel of a gun, whether by homicide or suicide, more than any other year on record. The figure represents a 25% increase from five years prior, and a 43% increase from 2010. - BBC. using Small Arms Survey, Centre for disease control, FBI, Gallup and Centre fro Responsive Government.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Thunglom

[kbelyeu]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:07 PM, wombat said:

Tweak the social media algorithm to pick up on guns rifles & ammo.

Red flag them to local law for a chat and a confiscation.

With the countries south of the border those that want weapons will get them.

The protagonist in these shootings are all ratbags who advertise on social media.

Guns don't kill people...people kill people 

From what I have been reading this kid was already on law enforcements radar but no one did a thing.

[kbelyeu]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:43 PM, ozimoron said:

They came close, they want to arm teachers.

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/02/590308832/who-wants-to-arm-teachers-republican-men

Its already legal for teachers to be armed in Texas as well as many other states.  If we would have had an armed teacher in Uvalde then this might not have happened.

[kbelyeu]

On 5/26/2022 at 3:23 AM, jvs said:

Maybe a little bit of topic but i am going to ask it anyway,to the Americans here.

If,just if,the law was changed and you are no longer allowed to own a gun,would you comply and hand in your gun?

How would it change your life?

Remember if.

My guess would be civil war.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, kbelyeu said:

Its already legal for teachers to be armed in Texas as well as many other states.  If we would have had an armed teacher in Uvalde then this might not have happened.

A teacher with a hand gun might have been able to stop someone with a semi-automatic assault rifle, but it's unlikely.  If the assault rifle had not been available this definitely wouldn't have happened.

[kbelyeu]

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

A teacher with a hand gun might have been able to stop someone with a semi-automatic assault rifle, but it's unlikely.  If the assault rifle had not been available this definitely wouldn't have happened.

And you would be wrong.. ????Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia - BBC News

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, kbelyeu said:

Its already legal for teachers to be armed in Texas as well as many other states.  If we would have had an armed teacher in Uvalde then this might not have happened.

The system's already broken if you expect teachers to carry guns. Most teachers do not want this, thats not why they joined the profession, they also do not want to take the blame if there is a mass shooting and they were unable to prevent it. 

[heybruce]

14 minutes ago, kbelyeu said:

And you would be wrong.. ????Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia - BBC News

That highly unusual event does not disprove my post.

[kbelyeu]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The system's already broken if you expect teachers to carry guns. Most teachers do not want this, thats not why they joined the profession, they also do not want to take the blame if there is a mass shooting and they were unable to prevent it. 

No one is expected to carry a gun, the program is completely voluntary.  So you speak for most teachers?

[kbelyeu]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

That highly unusual event does not disprove my post.

LOL.. its actually much more common than you think but since you have already made up your mind..  How many times have you been proven correct in this "theory"?

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, kbelyeu said:

No one is expected to carry a gun, the program is completely voluntary.  So you speak for most teachers?

I didn't say they are expected to carry a gun did I. Re read what I said:

 

Vast majority of educators reject Republican proposals for arming teachers

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/28/arming-teachers-reject-republican-proposals

[Bkk Brian]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

The survey is here, hard left eh?

 

https://csunshinetoday.csun.edu/media-releases/survey-finds-that-teachers-do-not-want-guns-in-the-classroom/

Edited May 30, 2022 by Scott

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, Thunglom said:

...and if he was black? Muslim? - basi=cally you are making a highly racist comment.

No, he spoke the truth, if the guy had been white shooting up a school with hispanic kids the narrative would be different.

[EVENKEEL]

36 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I didn't say they are expected to carry a gun did I. Re read what I said:

 

Vast majority of educators reject Republican proposals for arming teachers

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/may/28/arming-teachers-reject-republican-proposals

I'm in favor of gun ownership but a teacher should not be expected to be armed. I think that would be a terrible idea.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm in favor of gun ownership but a teacher should not be expected to be armed. I think that would be a terrible idea.

Yes I know you are, read your posts but happy to hear your against teachers carrying weapons which is the height of insanity

[fredwiggy]

25 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm in favor of gun ownership but a teacher should not be expected to be armed. I think that would be a terrible idea.

It should be allowed to any that want it, as well as hiring off duty police, of which there are thousands, that would like the extra income, protecting children from this type of anti social maniac. Letting teachers carry if they want will surely save lives, and would most likely have here. There are legitimate reasons that have been discussed about gun ownership, hunting,target shooting and self protection, and all are legal and in the case of the US, will probably always be allowed. This is a debate about what happened, and has been happening awhile now. Prejudice  should not be allowed here, as this isn't just an American thing. Shootings happen worldwide, and will always continue because guns are legal most everywhere, and they will always be around because of the military and police's needs. That being the case, guns will always find a way to the regular public. Thousands of people have been saved by armed citizens, and that will continue, if carrying continues to be legal. There isn't any debate on this. I've been a hunter,gun owner and gun salesman for many years until I moved here, and I also understand something has to be done, and now. To save one life is great, and if the police, from what we are now understanding, barged in and did their job, more children would probably have been spared. They stopped parents from going in, and 47 minutes from when this started is 45 minutes too long to do something. Police are people, and they were scared,which is understandable, but that's why you become a police officer, to serve and protect. Like I've mentioned before, and know, complete background checks, which is what we did when I worked in Texas, has to be mandatory. Some gun shows , from what others have told me, are a bit lax on this, as far as a few sellers are concerned, so they can sell the guns. AR-15 rifles are legitimate target and hunting tools, but the clips should be limited to 5-8 at most. There is no need for a larger clip. Having a doctors note doesn't cut it. Maybe before a sale, a psychiatrists note would be better, with a thorough mental evaluation, something many police, and military personnel would fail, as time has shown us. Raising the age to 21 before a sale would help also. Smart gun owners have safes for their gun storage, and not having this is why some other family member has had access, and used the guns in crimes. If you can afford guns, you can afford a safe. Many children's lives could be saved by this alone. Suicides can only be stopped by intervention by those in the know about depression,and knowing the person that is suicidal. Most gun deaths in the US are suicides. yes,without a gun it would be harder, but if a person is suicidal, a gun isn't necessary. Finally, trashing the US is prejudice, and pretty stupid if you think about it, because the US isn't a race by itself, but people from every country worldwide together in one place. Ignorance, racism and prejudice are the reasons we have most crimes, and mental illnesses are behind all evil. Debate all you want, but thinking about possible solutions that help the innocent and stop the evil is better that trashing each other because opinions are just that, and facts are facts.

Edited May 30, 2022 by fredwiggy

[EVENKEEL]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes I know you are, read your posts but happy to hear your against teachers carrying weapons which is the height of insanity

I'm against it from a teacher's view point. Assuming it would be voluntary with a bump in pay then perhaps a few of the non teaching staff could be properly vetted and trained. 

 

I carried a handgun for my job for years, qualified yearly with 9mm and 2 long guns. I wasn't paid more but it came with the job. If I was a teacher I certainly wouldn't want the responsibility of a gun.

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, kbelyeu said:

And you would be wrong.. ????Armed female bystander kills man firing at party in West Virginia - BBC News

How often did this happen compared to the actual shooting taking place?

 

Besides which, is there a law preventing teachers from carrying a handgun in Texas schools?

[ozimoron]

53 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

It should be allowed to any that want it, as well as hiring off duty police, of which there are thousands, that would like the extra income, protecting children from this type of anti social maniac. Letting teachers carry if they want will surely save lives, and would most likely have here. There are legitimate reasons that have been discussed about gun ownership, hunting,target shooting and self protection, and all are legal and in the case of the US, will probably always be allowed. This is a debate about what happened, and has been happening awhile now. Prejudice  should not be allowed here, as this isn't just an American thing. Shootings happen worldwide, and will always continue because guns are legal most everywhere, and they will always be around because of the military and police's needs. That being the case, guns will always find a way to the regular public. Thousands of people have been saved by armed citizens, and that will continue, if carrying continues to be legal. There isn't any debate on this. I've been a hunter,gun owner and gun salesman for many years until I moved here, and I also understand something has to be done, and now. To save one life is great, and if the police, from what we are now understanding, barged in and did their job, more children would probably have been spared. They stopped parents from going in, and 47 minutes from when this started is 45 minutes too long to do something. Police are people, and they were scared,which is understandable, but that's why you become a police officer, to serve and protect. Like I've mentioned before, and know, complete background checks, which is what we did when I worked in Texas, has to be mandatory. Some gun shows , from what others have told me, are a bit lax on this, as far as a few sellers are concerned, so they can sell the guns. AR-15 rifles are legitimate target and hunting tools, but the clips should be limited to 5-8 at most. There is no need for a larger clip. Having a doctors note doesn't cut it. Maybe before a sale, a psychiatrists note would be better, with a thorough mental evaluation, something many police, and military personnel would fail, as time has shown us. Raising the age to 21 before a sale would help also. Smart gun owners have safes for their gun storage, and not having this is why some other family member has had access, and used the guns in crimes. If you can afford guns, you can afford a safe. Many children's lives could be saved by this alone. Suicides can only be stopped by intervention by those in the know about depression,and knowing the person that is suicidal. Most gun deaths in the US are suicides. yes,without a gun it would be harder, but if a person is suicidal, a gun isn't necessary. Finally, trashing the US is prejudice, and pretty stupid if you think about it, because the US isn't a race by itself, but people from every country worldwide together in one place. Ignorance, racism and prejudice are the reasons we have most crimes, and mental illnesses are behind all evil. Debate all you want, but thinking about possible solutions that help the innocent and stop the evil is better that trashing each other because opinions are just that, and facts are facts.

1. There is no prejudice, just a statement of actual statistics.

 

2. Shootings do happen worldwide but mass shootings are rare. On a statistical basis they are far more prevalent and far more people are killed in the US on average than in any other developed nation. Every other developed nation has strict gun control laws.

 

3. Guns are legal almost everywhere but not all guns and certainly not AR 15's. There are also strict controls over the ownership  of those guns and background checks.

 

4. I'm assuming the police didn't go in because they had no SWAT gear and were armed with 9mm pistols only. Thus they would have been ineffective against the shooter armed with an AR 15. If the shooter didn't have that weapon they may well have gone in.

 

5. In Australia at least, gun safes are mandatory. Failing to store a gun in a safe is a criminal offense.

 

6. It is not a fair assessment to say that guns will always find their way to the general public. Hardened criminals, yes. Teenagers no. Mass shootings are simply rare in other countries but they still have the same mental health issues.

 

7. Nobody is trashing the US, other than fair and justified criticism of their nutty gun laws. The reason why guns are so prevalent in the US is money. Most guns are made in the US and the gun manufactures are highly active politically. This factor is absent in other countries which have sane gun laws. Even in the US, more than half the population believes the gun laws are insane so it's simply not fair to say that criticism of gun laws in the US is prejudice.

 

8. Mental illness is not behind all evil. Evil is a terrible description with religious connotations and is not used outside that context. If a person would be fit to stand trial then they are not insane.

 

 

 

 

[fredwiggy]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

1. There is no prejudice, just a statement of actual statistics.

 

2. Shootings do happen worldwide but mass shootings are rare. On a statistical basis they are far more prevalent and far more people are killed in the US on average than in any other developed nation. Every other developed nation has strict gun control laws.

 

3. Guns are legal almost everywhere but not all guns and certainly not AR 15's. There are also strict controls over the ownership  of those guns and background checks.

 

4. I'm assuming the police didn't go in because they had no SWAT gear and were armed with 9mm pistols only. Thus they would have been ineffective against the shooter armed with an AR 15. If the shooter didn't have that weapon they may well have gone in.

 

5. In Australia at least, gun safes are mandatory. Failing to store a gun in a safe is a criminal offense.

 

6. It is not a fair assessment to say that guns will always find their way to the general public. Hardened criminals, yes. Teenagers no. Mass shootings are simply rare in other countries but they still have the same mental health issues.

 

7. Nobody is trashing the US, other than fair and justified criticism of their nutty gun laws. The reason why guns are so prevalent in the US is money. Most guns are made in the US and the gun manufactures are highly active politically. This factor is absent in other countries which have sane gun laws. Even in the US, more than half the population believes the gun laws are insane so it's simply not fair to say that criticism of gun laws in the US is prejudice.

 

8. Mental illness is not behind all evil. Evil is a terrible description with religious connotations and is not used outside that context. If a person would be fit to stand trial then they are not insane.

 

 

 

 

I see prejudice against the US here daily, again it's ridiculous because the US is all countries combined. Mass shootings do happen more in the US so that,like I said, is where something has to change, but what can be done besides what I mentioned? Most police forces use AR-15 style weapons, and fully automatic, along with shotguns and handguns. They had enough firepower. It only takes a shot or two from any weapon to stop anyone. Guns will always find their way to about anyone who has the money. A teenager should not own a gun, as I mentioned, and guns in a house should be locked. making safes mandatory isn't that hard. Finally, mental illness is indeed behind all evil. Evil isn't just doing something out of ignorance or by mistake. Evil is intentional, and narcissism is a major influence on power, which is behind a lot of crimes. Wanting to intentionally hurt another human being  besides out of self defense or protection of one's family is not normal behavior.

[James105]

Not sure why this debate is still going on.   The gun control argument was settled way back in 2012 after the Sandy Hook massacre when Americans decided that it was more okay for little innocent kids in school to be shot and killed by someone with a legally purchased semi automatic rifle than it would be to take away that persons right to legally purchase the aforementioned weapon of destruction.    America has made it abundantly clear that the occasional massacre of 5-10 year olds is okay as long as they get to keep their guns.   

 

It's been 10 years since Sandy Hook and Americans have decided not to vote in politicians who could do something to prevent this.  It's not the NRA or some other bogeyman that is allowing this to happen - it is the democratic will of the American people to allow their innocent kids to get slaughtered on occasion.  

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I see prejudice against the US here daily, again it's ridiculous because the US is all countries combined. Mass shootings do happen more in the US so that,like I said, is where something has to change, but what can be done besides what I mentioned? Most police forces use AR-15 style weapons, and fully automatic, along with shotguns and handguns. They had enough firepower. It only takes a shot or two from any weapon to stop anyone. Guns will always find their way to about anyone who has the money. A teenager should not own a gun, as I mentioned, and guns in a house should be locked. making safes mandatory isn't that hard. Finally, mental illness is indeed behind all evil. Evil isn't just doing something out of ignorance or by mistake. Evil is intentional, and narcissism is a major influence on power, which is behind a lot of crimes. Wanting to intentionally hurt another human being  besides out of self defense or protection of one's family is not normal behavior.

Are there not Americans here arguing in favor of gun control? I think you should tone down the nationalism and team rhetoric. I think you are being a bit over sensitive. Criticism is not knee jerk prejudice. Note the strong arguments by brits against the government in the Boris Johnson thread.

 

You are just repeating points made in your past post. Don't double post, make new points.

Edited May 30, 2022 by ozimoron

[bbko]

This just in, 7 injured and 1 dead in a Oklahoma shooting spree.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/agency-1-dead-7-injured-153706838.html

Edited May 30, 2022 by bbko