Seperated Thai/farang Parents (divorce Imminent)

[richard10365]

After many physically abusive fights with my wife (her hitting me) with one instance of her pulling a kitchen knife on me, I have seperated from my Thai wife. I asked her to leave.

The knife was the straw that broke the camels back. There are many dead husbands who's wives only pulled a knife on them one time. For me, once was enough.

For now, we are still married with a verbal agreement to seperate.

Also, verbally agreeing to share custody of my one year old son, I let him go home with her. I'm supposed to pick him up at the end of the month and bring him to Chiang Mai to stay with me for a few weeks.

Yesterday, my wife went to Bangkok to find work. So my son is alone with the grandparents. That alone makes me nervouse.

I am a retired soldier so I don't work. I have plenty of time to take care of him. I want him to spend time with me for now before I start school in August here in Chiang Mai. After school starts, I am not sure I will have a lot of time to spend with him as I expect to be studying alot.

My wife told me her parents do not want me to pick up my son because they don't think I can take care of him alone. My wife's father said if I let my son and wife leave then I must not care about him.

I stressed to my wife our son is not why we are currently seperated, this issues are physical abuse and the threat with the kitchen knife. There are other issues but those are the ones that made me decide to seperate.

My name is on my son's Thai birth certificant. His name is in the families tambien bann (blue book).

I would much rather solve this in a way that does not involve agressive behavior or legal threats.

I do want the grandmother in his life. However, for many reasons, I do not want my wife's father to have any input in any decision concerning my son.

Legally, can I go and demand they give me my son? If so, how should I proceed?

Edited June 19, 2007 by richard10365

[jimmym40]

Wow, what a big headache you have. Sorry to hear of the circumstances. Whatever you do will not be easy, as you probably already know.

It's difficult for anyone to offer advice on this subject. The best thing I would say is to get a lawyer. But, in the end, the lawyers are always the one who WIN.

Good luck.

[leisurely]

Poor you. Are you planning to stay in Thailand after this is sorted out? I would go with what the previousl poster said and involve the law. The difficulty would be keeping the grandad out of the equation. Presumably he lives with Grandma?

Good luck

[richard10365]

Strange I am getting very limited replies. Perhaps this was the wrong forum to post in. Maybe one of the mods can move this to the general section so I don't have to write a duplicate post.

The granddad lives with the grandmom but has a lot of influence with grandmom.

I would like the keep this all low key; however, they do not know what extreme legnths I am considering if they refuse me the right of a father.

Edited June 19, 2007 by richard10365

[cmsally]

Try to get a respected person to intervene. If they are in a village maybe a pooyai bahn etc, if in town then someone known to the family whom they would listen to. If you don't speak Thai then a translator too. You need to choose carefully and make sure you choose someone fairly unbiased that knows the situation. Going straight for the lawyer option could just turn them more away from you and judicial proceedings are loooong here.

You mentioned in August you don't have time to look after your child. That does not bode well for any negotiating; get a back up plan!

If you are seen as maybe not a permanent fixture (no extended family here and been here for only a few years - seems fairly impermanent to most locals) and the mother is a scatterbrain; the parents might just believe they are doing the right thing. It is up to you to convince them otherwise.

Good luck! Remember it is best for your child if you can keep everyone happy, making sure he comes first.

[mellow1]

Getting a lawyer should be a priority.Do not do anything rash.Contact your embassy and ask them about a lawyer, as well as any other info they may have for you.I hope you registered your son's birth with the embassy.Look at all your options with the lawyer.Do not give your X any money.Buy things directly for him, nothing anybody else can use.Maybe later when your X is broke, you can get legal custody for him with money, through your lawyer.Do not loose your self control,do not confront,threaten,or do anything which may bring the authorities into this.You are farang,and they will protect each other no matter what.As in all such cases,it's going to come down to money.Fight for the last bone on the floor.Don't give an inch,and don't loose your cool.

[a2396]

I would say you need to see a trustworthy lawyer, if there is such a thing here, regarding the custody & divorce issues. You do not give a lot of background detail, such as how long this "abuse" has been going on, etc, etc. I assume this is a long standing pattern. If just one incident of volitile temper, I would tend to overlook it. One of my darlings once raised a knife, but did not make any moves toward me & has not displayed any such loss of control since. You are the one who can make a judgement about this.

[Furbie]

I would say you are getting few replies because you have so few options.

1) get a lawyer

2) offer to pay off the family

3) do something illegal

I suggest you get a lawyer and put the system to work for you.

[richard10365]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Although the physical abuse has not been going on a long time, it has escalated because I have done little to stop it. When I do try to defend myself, it enrages her and makes the situation worse.

Once while she was doing this I tried to leave the house because I felt I was reaching my breaking point and tried to leave. She blocked the door and wouldn't let me leave.

Another time when I tried to stop her from hitting me, I pushed her quite hard to the ground to shock her into stopping hitting me and to display my stregnth as man in order to let her know it is a foolish thing to hit someone so much more powerful than you.

Other than that, many cultural differnces have created huge fights. Things like letting the baby pee on the floor and then just wiping it up with a dirty shirt. After that, just wiping the baby down with another rag to dry off his pee and not totally cleaning him with a baby wipe or something cleaner.

If the baby does wear a diaper, after the baby poops or pees, she leaves the dirty diaper on the floor and I would find myself picking up 4 or 5 dirty diapers a day.

She felt is was necessary to sleep with the baby for an entire year in a different bed and not use the 4000 baht wooden crib I had bought him.

Breathing on the head when it gets hurt to stop the crying. When that didn't work, sticking her finger in the charcol from the grill and then put a charcol spot above his eyes. When that didn't work, she would place her underwear on his head like a hat like it had some magical powers. That' about the time my cultural patience wore out and I hit the roof.

Other things, in the rare times that she cooked, it would only be for the baby. Strange how she cooked for me before the baby. If she didn't cook, and this was often, she would go to the market and buy food.

And why, after a man marrys a woman, does the woman think she no longer has to comb her hiar or make herself look nice. Some days I felt like I was in a National Geographic special.

I'm sure this is an isolated incident and this does not happen to other men. I am also sure than some of this is probably my fault as well. I cannot totally put the blame all on her.

I think living with a retired soldier must be difficult for her as, for example, my standards for cleanliness are a bit more difficult to achieve.

What a pickle I am in. Now to tip toe through the mine field of life and hope I don't get blown up.

[chuchok]

Go and pick up your son.You are not kidnapping him,he is yours.Nothing illegal at all.To be on the safe side,pay a cop to come with you.

[meadish_sweetball]

If you have the economic means and dedication to support your son and the court deems you are more fit to care for your son (which would seem true if your wife is not mentally stable), you can gain sole custody.

I know of another such case where the farang father was given custody using regular channels.

Get a lawyer and find out your options.

[soundman]

My my. A pretty pickle. I'm feeling for you out there brother.

Some pointers:

Your name is on your child's birth certificate - you are a legal father of the child & have the same legal rights to to the child as the mother - farang or not. The grandparents do not have any say whatsoever. (legally)

If the case for custody appears before the family court, the court (& your lawyers) will try to push for an agreement between you & your wife. If an agreement cannot be reached, the court will process the case on provable facts only. It will make no difference to the court farang versus thai.

Things like having the baby sleep in the same bed are normal in Thailand - not a good argument in court. Neither would sloppy housekeeping be such.

The court would look upon a knife attack quite severly, however, there would be a burden of proof if the other side did not admit to such.

I have lived through the whole episode of a friend going through almost the same process you describe. Five years from start to finnish.

Have you allready made your child a citizen of your own country & received a passport?

If you have do not get any silly ideas of a kid-napping into your head. Worst thing you could do.

If everything is as you say, play it by the book. It will take a lot of time, much heartbreak, money, concessions on your behalf, however as in my friends case, an outcome that you desire is achievable.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[qualtrough]

Once while she was doing this I tried to leave the house because I felt I was reaching my breaking point and tried to leave. She blocked the door and wouldn't let me leave.

Hope you don't mind if I digress, but years ago I had a former Thai wife do exactly that. Both you and I are apparently the patient type and not prone to violence, but I am sure that not a few cases in which a woman gets hurt are the result of them pulling that stunt with someone who finally lost control. Of course then it is entirely the man's fault in the court of public opinion.

Good luck with your situation. You are the legal father, and you do have rights here despite what I am sure some of the usual naysayers will say. Best advice I have seen here is to consult a good lawyer, key word being 'good'. They exist, but you should do a lot of checking first.

[Pepe']

Very sorry to hear this. Unfortunately all too common. My ex, potrayed some violence and sheer madness before we separated, recently divorced.

I think the most important question is if your son has a US passport.

A friend in Pattaya, who has lived in Thailand for over 30 years, is going thru a similar situation as well.

His plan is to take his wife and two sons on a holiday to Singapore ditch her and bring his sons here to the USA.

He has mixed feelings but knows the system in Thailand very well and is in damage control mode.

He just wants to protect his sons. His wife does not have a US passport.

Too bad,so sad.

Before you or your son gets hurt, or worse, et away from this "psyco" as far and fast as you can.

Good luck. Remember cool heads prevail. Jai yen...

[richard10365]

My son doesn't have a U.S. passport. At present, I don't see the need for a U.S. passport. I don't plan on leaving Thailand and don't plan on taking him out of the country as of yet.

The main reason he doesn't have one is it is expensive to get. It cost between 6000 to 7000 baht just to register his birth. Then you have to pay $75 more dollars just for the passport.

Why spend the money if I don't need too. It's kinda like buying an open ended plane ticket back to your home country but not using it for 10 to 15 years. How many people have one of them just laying around waiting to be used?

The only reason to register his birth is for tax purposes only. The IRS would not give me an ITIN number for him this year but instead wanted me to register him so he can get a social security number. Since the tax season is over and I need the money, I told the tax advocate to go ahead and process my tax return with my abusive wife (I really didn't say abusive) and myself.

With that said, even if he did have a U.S. passport, I would not take him away from his mother. Although we don't agree, as crazy as she is sometimes, I would not do to her what it seems her family is doing to me.

I think he needs his mother and his grandmother. He is still Thai and I do want him to learn his Thai culture, but I also want him to learn the difference between reality and village fantasy.

I also don't want the grandparents to look at him as a child laborer and work him in on the farms when he should be studying.

When my wife finished M3 she quit school and was told to go to Bangkok to find a job so she can send money home. My wifes younger sister is currently in Japan working in a bar. This is acceptable behavior in my wifes family as well as in her village.

That kind of thinking is dangerous. I refuse to let that trend continue with my son.

When he is of age, I want him with me full time so I can send him to one of the nicer schools that are avaliable here in Chiang Mai.

Once I graduate from Payap University here in Chiang Mai, I will be in a better position to work and support him to ensure his educational success here in Thailand.

I have a plan for his future. It is a good plan. It is well thought out and financially stable.

My wife's family can help me with my plan or lose total custody of him altogether.

I appreciate all the comments I have received so far. One thing I have learned from the thaivisa forum, if a child is involved, most members are willing to offer and advise and help they can give. Thank you to everyone so far for helping.

[Shah Jahan]

this isnt america, lawyers arent going to do much but take your money

if you want your son, just go and pick him up, if they refuse then sit down and watch tv with them for a while and eat somtam.

then tell them that you are taking your son

they are probably good people, but thais have no concept that a man can do anything but drop seed in terms of raising children, so they cant comprehend how you intend to take care of him

tell them your mother/sister is waiting at your house in chiang mai and she will help you.

they will understand

when later confronted by your fib, just play it off as miscommunication.....

all in all, just go to their house and dont leave until you have your son. worst case, you get to shack up with the family and be with your son

[MTW]

Hi Richard,

I want to refer you to a good lawyer here in CM. He is listed on the Chiang Mai forum, under a pinned topic about professional people here, but I have also used him.

Akarawath Intanant, 128/58 Palmsprings village, and his phone is 01-5686865, although I guess the card I have for him was printed before the 08 phone code was added. He also has email at: <email dress removed - please see forum rules> but I would warn you that many Thai people go days and weeks before checking their email because they are not used to getting many.

He also is a prof at Payap. He used to be a judge, his wife is a judge here. They seem to be honest, nice, and both went to graduate school in the US. And I think they are probably well-connected here, and that can be very important.

But I am a little confused about if you really want custody or not, or if you want your wife to have it, if she is willing to have it or just leave the kid with her parents and go off to start a new life. You have said conflicting things, like you want the child to be involved with her and the grandmother, but not the grandfather who lives with the grandmother. Impossible for the kid to get his feeling from life from one person who he lives with, but to avoid all influences from the person you don't like.

You have talked that you don't like the family's basic beliefs in life, you will want him educated, given all opportunities, and how the grandparents didn't do like this for your wife/gf, so I how can you expect him to be educated the way you want if they are with the parents of your wife, or even too much with only your wife?

You have mentioned that you will be too busy with school to take care of him. Many single parents have jobs and go to school, or some just go to school, that being the easier way I would think leaving you a lot of time at home, or to be with him, even if you are studying and that you have an income, which I can only assume is much larger than your wife's or her parent's and that should buy you some influence. If you really want the best for your kid, maybe school has to go for now, considering that you have an income, and are not 20 years old.

I would think, that trying to get custody would be the best way, through a lawyer, and maybe he can help negotiate probably a pay-off to the mother, that would be legal but would give you the most rights and control about how he is brought up. The cultural differences you talked about are a lot of the reasons that people from very different cultures are not successful when married and having children.

I mean, I can somewhat have a laugh over the witch doctors my husband's father gets to treat his wife's illnesses, for one or two weeks, before they (always) end up at a hospital for a few days, and then after she improves, the father is not sure if it was the "magic doctor" as he calls it, or the ###### meds she got in the hospital. Well, I am sure what helped her because if they left it up to the "magic doctor" she would be dead now, and she is only not dead because of the real doctor, real drugs, and real treatment she recieved at the hospital.

However, if this was my KID, I would be freaking out, and wouldn't have the patience to let them try out their magic shit, and would be at a real MD or hospital in a minute. I don't care enough to cause problems within the whole family to save an 80 year old woman's life, and know whatever I have to say will not be appreciated, (will not be respected because for one, I am a low woman) even though I always research the illness and give my best advise, they can do what they want.

It isn't my mother or my wife even if I would be sad to see a life wasted on stupid ideas. But if it were my kid, or maybe even my dog, I would go in with guns to get the patient to a real hospital. And I would have the moral duty to do this, where my Thai b/f's parents are not just lacking my western medical ideas, or lacking in all education, as their kids have lived in the west, have master degrees, and if those people don't feel the need to interfere, or feel is it wiser not to, than I will not fight them too much.

I think you need to really think about what it is to raise a child on your own, in Thailand or outside, think about what will give the child the best future, and think about how you can make this happen. It might be going back to your country and sending big money to the kid, it might be taking the kid with you no matter where you are, it might be something else. But I would warn you not to think, that if you leave the kid here, and go about your life, paying them some money, that you can recover the kid, retrain his ideas, educate him all over again, after he is 16, 18, or 20 years old, and now you want him to live with you.

My b/f who would like to get married, I should add, is crazy with wanting to have a kid. But when I ask him why, it is mostly to please his parents, 75 and 80 years old. They have grandchildren already, but they think he needs kids to "take care of him when he is older." I tell him, to tell them, that I will take care of him when he is older, or if I die first, I will leave him enough money to pay for anything he needs. But, if I have some kids, have to pay for international schools, then univeristy in a western country, which I feel it would be my duty to do, I may not have enough money for myself when old, much less him.

Then they say things which make me crazy, like "we just want to see your kid one time before we die." Well that's nice, but I have to take care of them for life, and you might only be alive long enough to actually only see them ONE time before you die. It can be amazing the differences between western people and Thai people. My parents would be worried sick if I decided to have a kid, with my Thai b/f, at this stage in my life, to raise it here, etc. But his parents think it is the most worthy thing he can do and don't care one iota if he has money to pay for the kid, to give it a good life, or anything in this regard. He could have a baby with a hooker in Burma and they would be happy that his sperm proved able to make it to the goal line.

But this is off topic, sorry. Please talk to the lawyer I suggested and try to do the best for your kid. And I am very sorry that your life is now mixed with so much turmoil and stress and hope you will find your happy ending.

Since I live in CM, I could even babysit for you when you go to class, if you can't afford help. I am bored and not working. Good Luck!

Edited June 19, 2007 by endure
Edited to remove email address - not permitted

[Jet Gorgon]

Sorry for your plight, Richard. I would spend the money to register your son. It's a safeguard. And is he safe at the grandparents? I think you have to take a stand now, or they may tell the courts you left him there and thus do not care about him. If you take him to CM, tell the wife she can come to visit. I bet she will not.

[pumpuiman]

Go see the Amphur that married you.

My wife's brother just went through a custody battle and this is how it's handled in an Isaan village.

They were both present (you bring a translator) and were divorced, and custody decided then and there. A binding written agreement.

Your wife being in Bangkok looking for work, and you being a well paid farang may get you custody.

50/50 custody will be a shoe in.

I believe her parents will respect the Amphurs decision (certainly more than a lawyers) And the full story can be told.

I worry that you don't care for this child much though. Attending school is a sad excuse to dump your child.

The cost of live in day care in Chiang Mai would be nominal. I think you should re-think that aspect.

We don't know the full story here either....I'm sure if your wife were to post here, we'd get a more complete picture.....where you aren't the only victim.

Good luck, and please put that child first, above everything else. You only go around once, make it good.

[MTW]

This isn't really too important, but if the lawyer's email address is listed in a pinned subject on Thai visa, why can't I list it? I don't really know what is the reason for not being able to put anyone's email address here, since many good places we can refer people to, have a website.

Is there really some great reason we cannot put the info here?? I cannot list the email for the Red Cross in Thailand for tsumani support??

[Pepe']

How many more times will you let her pull a knife on you before you get your son out of there.

Watch your back man, literally...

[frikkiedeboer]

My son doesn't have a U.S. passport. At present, I don't see the need for a U.S. passport. I don't plan on leaving Thailand and don't plan on taking him out of the country as of yet.

The main reason he doesn't have one is it is expensive to get. It cost between 6000 to 7000 baht just to register his birth. Then you have to pay $75 more dollars just for the passport.

Why spend the money if I don't need too. It's kinda like buying an open ended plane ticket back to your home country but not using it for 10 to 15 years. How many people have one of them just laying around waiting to be used?

The only reason to register his birth is for tax purposes only. The IRS would not give me an ITIN number for him this year but instead wanted me to register him so he can get a social security number. Since the tax season is over and I need the money, I told the tax advocate to go ahead and process my tax return with my abusive wife (I really didn't say abusive) and myself.

With that said, even if he did have a U.S. passport, I would not take him away from his mother. Although we don't agree, as crazy as she is sometimes, I would not do to her what it seems her family is doing to me.

I think he needs his mother and his grandmother. He is still Thai and I do want him to learn his Thai culture, but I also want him to learn the difference between reality and village fantasy.

I also don't want the grandparents to look at him as a child laborer and work him in on the farms when he should be studying.

When my wife finished M3 she quit school and was told to go to Bangkok to find a job so she can send money home. My wifes younger sister is currently in Japan working in a bar. This is acceptable behavior in my wifes family as well as in her village.

That kind of thinking is dangerous. I refuse to let that trend continue with my son.

When he is of age, I want him with me full time so I can send him to one of the nicer schools that are avaliable here in Chiang Mai.

Once I graduate from Payap University here in Chiang Mai, I will be in a better position to work and support him to ensure his educational success here in Thailand.

I have a plan for his future. It is a good plan. It is well thought out and financially stable.

My wife's family can help me with my plan or lose total custody of him altogether.

I appreciate all the comments I have received so far. One thing I have learned from the thaivisa forum, if a child is involved, most members are willing to offer and advise and help they can give. Thank you to everyone so far for helping.

you absolutely have to find yourself a lawyer. you probably know that already, but are trying to avoid it. do it NOW! please, for the sake of your child,(and you already know this,too). get full custody and get him out of the danger he faces. his mother and grandparents may show him love, and perhaps give him the things he needs physically, but (and ,once again, you already know), your son will be probably doomed to live a life of ignorance, hard labour and poverty if you do not act.

i have "been- there-done- that"

as long as your name appears on the birth certificate, you have l every right to take your son. the grandparents have absolutely no say in the matter- do not even bother to negotiate with them. i had to kidnap my two boys (violence was involved), and i would not recommend it. high speed (for thailand) car chase and arrest at gunpoint, but i had the birth certificates with me, and got away with it. the poster who suggested taking a policeman with you gave the best advice. you will not get anywhere doing the "softly,softly thing. shared custody will not work(sorry) you will simply prolong the agony. normally just one threatening lawyer's letter will do the trick. in the meantime, do not rush into the divorce, and if you must, never do it thaistyle at the amphoe.she cannot divorce you without your agreeing to it, unless she waits for a full year after seperation, and then applies through the courts. in the meantime,keep your nose clean. do not be seen alone with any woman- even on a platonic basis.this is very important, if the thing goes to court. there are huge issues involved and you will lose if you can be proven to have "slipped up". if she gets involved with a third party before you are legally divorced, and you can prove it, you gain a huge advantage. i know the situation you find yourself in at the moment, and what you are going through emotionally- as i said, i have been there. there is hope, but without a lawyer, you have no chance. since the thai police know that we know little about thai law, they take chances, and simply flashing a lawyer's business card at them will often put them back in their box.

if you find a lawyer you do not feel will do his best for you, shop around. there are many good lawyers in thailand and i think in your area, you probably stand a better chance than i did.

do not give up, whatever you do. in this case you will probably find that you have more rights under thai law than you would have had in your own country. a verbal custody agreement is not worth the paper it is written on- get it all done legally. by the way, i got full , legal custody of my two boys before i got divorced, and did not spend a day in court.

sympathies and good luck,

frikkie`

Edited June 19, 2007 by frikkiedeboer

[richard10365]

Thanks for your long detailed post MTW. It must have taken quite a while to write it. I will respond to your comments throughout your post.

Hi Richard,

I want to refer you to a good lawyer here in CM. He is listed on the Chiang Mai forum, under a pinned topic about professional people here, but I have also used him.

Akarawath Intanant, 128/58 Palmsprings village, and his phone is 01-5686865, although I guess the card I have for him was printed before the 08 phone code was added. He also has email at: <email dress removed - please see forum rules> but I would warn you that many Thai people go days and weeks before checking their email because they are not used to getting many.

He also is a prof at Payap. He used to be a judge, his wife is a judge here. They seem to be honest, nice, and both went to graduate school in the US. And I think they are probably well-connected here, and that can be very important.

But I am a little confused about if you really want custody or not, or if you want your wife to have it, if she is willing to have it or just leave the kid with her parents and go off to start a new life. You have said conflicting things, like you want the child to be involved with her and the grandmother, but not the grandfather who lives with the grandmother. Impossible for the kid to get his feeling from life from one person who he lives with, but to avoid all influences from the person you don't like.

I know I have said things that seem conflicting. My wife only told her parents intentions yesterday so I am a bit confused right now.

Full custody is not my goal. It is the last thing that I want. I know my wife's grandmother loves my son as does my wife. Her beliefs are strange but I think not a threat to his basic upbringing if I can get my son in a good pre-school here in Chiang Mai by the time he is 2 or 3. For now, I would be happy having him here with me during school vacations. He can live with the grandparents when school starts but to say I cannot keep him at all is unsettling. I don't want them to get the idea he will grow up in their village.

The grandfather is a drunk. Often, he uses money for his gig in the village. He is motivated by money and looking good to others in the village. I don't trust him to take care of my son but he does live with the grandmother (seperate rooms). My wife has said her and the grandmother look forward to the day he dies.

I use to have a cat that I picked up as a kitten when I was riding my motorcycle through the mountians in Sa Kaeo province. The kitten appeared to be abandoned because there were no houses in that area. I raised the kitten until it was a cat and later moved to my wifes house in Phayao.

Once while the father was drunk on whiskey (which happens often) he left the door open and passed out on the floor. When my wife and I returned, I found the dogs (4 big dogs) wondering in the house, my wifes father passed out on the floor, and my dead cat laying next to him. The dogs killed my cat and my wifes father heard nothing. Imagine him doing this with my son around.

Other times he would come home and late after drinking and start a fight with the grandmother. More than once he would slam doors and break things.

I don't trust the grandfather to look after and take care of my son. I do trust the grandmother. I know she won't leave him alone with the grandfather if he is drunk.

You have talked that you don't like the family's basic beliefs in life, you will want him educated, given all opportunities, and how the grandparents didn't do like this for your wife/gf, so I how can you expect him to be educated the way you want if they are with the parents of your wife, or even too much with only your wife?

I think staying with the grandparents for the next 2 years will not be a threat to the educational goals I have set up for him. I will still have contact with him. The main thing I want him to learn in the next 2 years is the Thai language.

You have mentioned that you will be too busy with school to take care of him. Many single parents have jobs and go to school, or some just go to school, that being the easier way I would think leaving you a lot of time at home, or to be with him, even if you are studying and that you have an income, which I can only assume is much larger than your wife's or her parent's and that should buy you some influence. If you really want the best for your kid, maybe school has to go for now, considering that you have an income, and are not 20 years old.

Life in Thailand is not as secure with living in the country you are from. Changing immigration policies as well as work permit policies can endanger a persons ability to stay and work here in Thailand. Although, my army pension is a lot more than most Thai's make, I don't only want to depend on that to keep me here in Thailand.

I'm only 41 and won't qualify for a retirement visa for another 9 years. I can graduate in 4 years and work for another 15 or so years or until I reach social security age. Then what I paid to the U.S. social secuirty as a soldier will kick in, suppliment my income and I can officially retire.

For my plan to work, I have to finish school. Another job will give me the security I need to raise my son here in Thailand. I will have a degree, work permit, correct visa and income I expect to be between 90,000 to 100,000 baht/month (combination of pension and work salary). I think that will be enough for me to send him to a good school here in Chiang Mai.

I am not the first single parent to try to raise a child. I know it will be difficult. My time will be limited. Effective time management will be very important to our relationship.

Often I hear the best situation is to have mother and father together raise their kids together. While this is nice, it is not the rule. There are plenty of bad kids out there with 2 parents. I believe it's not the quanity of those used to raise the child but the quality of the upbringing. I'm far from perfect, but I will do the best I can for my son.

I would think, that trying to get custody would be the best way, through a lawyer, and maybe he can help negotiate probably a pay-off to the mother, that would be legal but would give you the most rights and control about how he is brought up. The cultural differences you talked about are a lot of the reasons that people from very different cultures are not successful when married and having children.

I think solving this problem without requesting custody would be in the best interest of everyone involved. The family wouldn't feel they lost face and can continue to help me take care of him while I am in school. When he is of age, I will see about getting him in pre-school here in Chaing Mai.

The grandmother and mother would never accept a pay-off. The grandfather probably would.

I mean, I can somewhat have a laugh over the witch doctors my husband's father gets to treat his wife's illnesses, for one or two weeks, before they (always) end up at a hospital for a few days, and then after she improves, the father is not sure if it was the "magic doctor" as he calls it, or the ###### meds she got in the hospital. Well, I am sure what helped her because if they left it up to the "magic doctor" she would be dead now, and she is only not dead because of the real doctor, real drugs, and real treatment she recieved at the hospital.

However, if this was my KID, I would be freaking out, and wouldn't have the patience to let them try out their magic shit, and would be at a real MD or hospital in a minute. I don't care enough to cause problems within the whole family to save an 80 year old woman's life, and know whatever I have to say will not be appreciated, (will not be respected because for one, I am a low woman) even though I always research the illness and give my best advise, they can do what they want.

I definitly understand how you feel when it comes to not being heard. Even as a man, my voice carries no weight in my wifes family. Perhaps this is the basis for most of my cultural frustration. If they listened to me a little, I might be more appreciative of their guidance; however, at this point, I am resentful.

It isn't my mother or my wife even if I would be sad to see a life wasted on stupid ideas. But if it were my kid, or maybe even my dog, I would go in with guns to get the patient to a real hospital. And I would have the moral duty to do this, where my Thai b/f's parents are not just lacking my western medical ideas, or lacking in all education, as their kids have lived in the west, have master degrees, and if those people don't feel the need to interfere, or feel is it wiser not to, than I will not fight them too much.

I think you need to really think about what it is to raise a child on your own, in Thailand or outside, think about what will give the child the best future, and think about how you can make this happen. It might be going back to your country and sending big money to the kid, it might be taking the kid with you no matter where you are, it might be something else. But I would warn you not to think, that if you leave the kid here, and go about your life, paying them some money, that you can recover the kid, retrain his ideas, educate him all over again, after he is 16, 18, or 20 years old, and now you want him to live with you.

My current plan is for me to raise my son more than my wifes family. In fact, after I graduate from Payap, I will work as normal while he will be a normal school child here in Chiang Mai. It might be possible for me keep him here full time within 2 years. By that time, I should be aware of my schedule in school and able to work him into it.

My b/f who would like to get married, I should add, is crazy with wanting to have a kid. But when I ask him why, it is mostly to please his parents, 75 and 80 years old. They have grandchildren already, but they think he needs kids to "take care of him when he is older." I tell him, to tell them, that I will take care of him when he is older, or if I die first, I will leave him enough money to pay for anything he needs. But, if I have some kids, have to pay for international schools, then univeristy in a western country, which I feel it would be my duty to do, I may not have enough money for myself when old, much less him.

Then they say things which make me crazy, like "we just want to see your kid one time before we die." Well that's nice, but I have to take care of them for life, and you might only be alive long enough to actually only see them ONE time before you die. It can be amazing the differences between western people and Thai people. My parents would be worried sick if I decided to have a kid, with my Thai b/f, at this stage in my life, to raise it here, etc. But his parents think it is the most worthy thing he can do and don't care one iota if he has money to pay for the kid, to give it a good life, or anything in this regard. He could have a baby with a hooker in Burma and they would be happy that his sperm proved able to make it to the goal line.

But this is off topic, sorry. Please talk to the lawyer I suggested and try to do the best for your kid. And I am very sorry that your life is now mixed with so much turmoil and stress and hope you will find your happy ending.

My neighbor also suggested a lawyer that I am considering seeing. Perhaps it is the same one. Just to be on the safe side, I will consult a lawyer.

Since I live in CM, I could even babysit for you when you go to class, if you can't afford help. I am bored and not working. Good Luck!

I just might send you a PM about babysitting. Thank you for the offer and thank you for your advise.

[richard10365]

Sorry for your plight, Richard. I would spend the money to register your son. It's a safeguard. And is he safe at the grandparents? I think you have to take a stand now, or they may tell the courts you left him there and thus do not care about him. If you take him to CM, tell the wife she can come to visit. I bet she will not.

Hi Jet, I'm not sure what registering my son is a safeguard for. The only reason to register him that I can see is for tax purposes. Other than that, he is still my son regardless. I can still register him later this year which I plan on doing.

He has been going back and forth to stay with his grandparents since he was born. Generally, I think he is safe. Although, their dogs do worry me somewhat.

I can see how they might claim abandonment. A visit to a lawyers office should show I am not abandoning him.

I also gave up the car I am currently paying 8200 baht a month for. Plus, I am giving 4000 more baht to help with food cost. The car was so my wife could drive it if she needed to take him to the hospital, shopping or something like that.

[Totster]

This isn't really too important, but if the lawyer's email address is listed in a pinned subject on Thai visa, why can't I list it? I don't really know what is the reason for not being able to put anyone's email address here, since many good places we can refer people to, have a website.

Is there really some great reason we cannot put the info here?? I cannot list the email for the Red Cross in Thailand for tsumani support??

Please see the following forum rule -

12) Due to potential spam problems, email addresses are not permitted in posts or signatures

If you would like to discuss this further please contact a moderator by PM or support[at]thaivisa.com so as not to break this forum rule...

5) Discussion of moderation issues, actions or moderation policies concerning individual cases are not allowed in the forums. Such comments should be directed to a moderator or administrator, and not discussed on the forum.

Cheers

Totster

[viciouskitty74]

forget it.

Edited June 20, 2007 by viciouskitty74

[richard10365]

Go see the Amphur that married you.

The amphur is about 600 km south of here. If that is the only way I can get divorced, then I will have to do that. I hope there are other options.

My wife's brother just went through a custody battle and this is how it's handled in an Isaan village.

They were both present (you bring a translator) and were divorced, and custody decided then and there. A binding written agreement.

Your wife being in Bangkok looking for work, and you being a well paid farang may get you custody.

50/50 custody will be a shoe in.

I believe her parents will respect the Amphurs decision (certainly more than a lawyers) And the full story can be told.

Since the amphur is not in northern Thailand (700km from there), I doubt they will have any respect for what is said.

I worry that you don't care for this child much though. Attending school is a sad excuse to dump your child.

I respect your opnion but disagree with you on this point. I do care for my son and don't look at this as dumping my son because of school. There are many jobs where the parent has to leave their children in the care of others. Off shore oil rigs or the military are examples. Attending school in order to provide for the rest of his life is one of the best reasons for others to help you take care of your child.

The cost of live in day care in Chiang Mai would be nominal. I think you should re-think that aspect.

I'm not sure what the cost of live in day care is. It is something I am currently researching.

I do have a monthly budget based on my income that stretches out until December. Using the basic formula, Income vs. Debt., I should be able to save money; however, at the end of the month, I don't seem to have much savings.

Having my son with me would require a healthcare policy. Since he was born in Phayao province, his free medical care does not apply here in Chiang Mai. It only works in the province you are from. Private healthcare policies are not free. I too will need a life insurance policy to protect him if I die. This is not free either. These need to be added to my budget.

My monthly shortcommings of my budget is what motivates me to plan for my future.

We don't know the full story here either....I'm sure if your wife were to post here, we'd get a more complete picture.....where you aren't the only victim.

As I stated above, I'm sure I am at fault in some areas as well; however, she has responded to the fights that broke the camels back as a normal part of marriage. She says other people have fights like this too.

I'm sure there are plenty of dead husbands who fought with their wifes once with a knife involved. I'm not going to be one of them. Her temper when she is angry is too much for me to live with. Verbal threats against my life do not evoke feelings of love for her. On the contrary, I'm afraid to sleep with her in the same house. More than once I worried she would sneak up behind me and stab me with a knife as I lay in bed.

I have told her strongly how I felt about her other behavior I mentioned earlier in the thread. I guess she shakes it off and doesn't think I am serious. She knows now.

According to her, everything is normal and all of a sudden I don't love her anymore. She highly suspects I have a girlfriend. Which, at the time of the fight, I did not. Since then, I am looking at other options.

Good luck, and please put that child first, above everything else. You only go around once, make it good.

Thanks for your advise pumpuiman. The child will come first; however, some sacrifices will have to be made for my plan to work effectively.

[richard10365]

These are going to sound crass.

1) How old is the son? And why does he still needs his mother & grandmother? You dont seem to be very maternal iszit? Bringing up children is women's job? Does he still needs a mother's milk? Or little boys are foreign to you as to the delicate upbringing they require? (You were ex-military you say???!!!!)

The child turned 1 year old in April. I never said anything about it being a womans job to bring up a child. I'm not sure where you got that from. He drinks formula.

I think you would need to be more specific about the delicate upbringing you think little boys require. I am open to your wisdom in this matter if you have any specific suggestions.

Yes, raising a boy is definitly foreign to me. I have never done it. I'm not sure there is a school that teaches you how to raise a child. How does everyone else know how to do this? Do they all do it the right way? What if they make a mistake? What if I make a mistake? I guess I will just have to do the best I can with what I know and hope that will be good enough.

2) Why does the ex-wife needs to go find a job in Bangkok? She isnt receiving any financial support for her role in bringing up your child? Is it related to your meagre retirement pension?

I asked myself the same question. I don't know why she thinks she needs a job. I gave her a car and money. It equals out to about 12,000 baht/month she is getting. Is that enough for her to live on in a small village? Or should I give her more. Her family brings in about 20,000/month min and sometimes as high as 50,000.

I did offer to send my wife back to school. I told her I would pay for her to finish her education to M6 and pay for her to get a BA degree in Business here in Chiang Mai. She said no and she would rather find work in Bangkok. What more can I do?

3) Children going out to work early. Because they can no longer study because their mental capability is reached? Or because of necessity to supplement a household income?

I really don't have a problem with kids working in and around the house. Even limited work on the farm is ok; however, with my wifes parents background in parenting, I think the work will be to help supplement a household income and could interfear with his studies. I don't think I would be comfortable with that.

Which still brings us back to the issue of money. What are your plans to keep the child in school? Some fundings? Cos even if he was eventually growing up in your household, if you cannot support the child, wouldnt it be the same that he will have to eventually abandone school and goes to work? Are you expecting the mother & grandmother & even the grandfather to provide the boy schooling till he is 30 years old, at their expense?

Perhaps as you was writing your comments, I was detailing my plans at the same time in response to comments from others. Maybe thats why you missed them. Basically, my plan is earn a BA degree and get a job here in Thailand. Either teaching or in a field related to my CIS BA degree that I will earn. The money I will earn from my future salary and my meager pension will help me pay for his school and keep him from going to work.

And if so, how would the child want to feel closer to someone, who arent supporting him financially or spiritually but expecting a closeness?

4) You wanted to work, to maybe provide a nanny for the child. Thats the same as farming your child out to someone to bring the child up. Whats to say that the nanny wouldnt abuse your child worse then his immediate loving supporting family?

At first, the ideal situation, would be for my wife and her family to help take care of him. After that, he will be in school. He will not need a nanny. I will work, pick him up from school or ensure he has something productive to do until I am able to pick him up.

As I have stated above, I do not intend to remove him from his family; however, if they intend to remove me from his life, I will do just that and adjust my plan accordingly.

I am sorry, but I read your priorities as too idealistic & superficial instead of practical actual.

viciouskitty74 (the name seems to lives up to how it appears), thank you for your comments. Although they appear negative, they do give me more to consider.

In the military, there is a saying, a good battle plan only survives the first 5 minuites of auctual combat. I believe this is true in this situation as well. For now, it is only my plan. It is a dynamic plan. This means it changes as the situation developes. I would much rather have a plan and change it accordingly rather than not have a plan and react to things as they happen.

[viciouskitty74]

viciouskitty74 (the name seems to lives up to how it appears), thank you for your comments. Although they appear negative, they do give me more to consider.

In the military, there is a saying, a good battle plan only survives the first 5 minuites of auctual combat. I believe this is true in this situation as well. For now, it is only my plan. It is a dynamic plan. This means it changes as the situation developes. I would much rather have a plan and change it accordingly rather than not have a plan and react to things as they happen.

Here, have a Trader Joe's Keylime Pie.

[richard10365]

viciouskitty74 (the name seems to lives up to how it appears), thank you for your comments. Although they appear negative, they do give me more to consider.

In the military, there is a saying, a good battle plan only survives the first 5 minuites of auctual combat. I believe this is true in this situation as well. For now, it is only my plan. It is a dynamic plan. This means it changes as the situation developes. I would much rather have a plan and change it accordingly rather than not have a plan and react to things as they happen.

Here, have a Trader Joe's Keylime Pie.

Thanks viciouskitty74, I love Trader Joe's. When I was a recruiter in the LA area, it was one of my favorite places to shop.