Markets shake out

[ozimoron]

In the short term, hydrogen will be applied first in those sectors that are under societal pressure to decarbonise - likely those closest to the customer. Interest from the market is coming from consumer goods companies in Europe which can obtain a premium from consumers substituting their energy needs in production and distribution. Think about a car from green steel (produced with the use of hydrogen) and hydrogen trucks to distribute consumer products.

In the medium to long term, industrial feedstock and electricity buffering are also likely to be decarbonised by hydrogen, as well as potentially some niches in other mobility applications and the built environment.

 

https://www2.deloitte.com/nl/nl/pages/sustainability/articles/creating-a-viable-hydrogen-economy.html

[Sparktrader]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/how-to-make-expensive-green-hydrogen-commercially-viable-today-without-subsidies/2-1-1142848

Except that article doesnt show anything about low costs.

[Sparktrader]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

In the short term, hydrogen will be applied first in those sectors that are under societal pressure to decarbonise - likely those closest to the customer. Interest from the market is coming from consumer goods companies in Europe which can obtain a premium from consumers substituting their energy needs in production and distribution. Think about a car from green steel (produced with the use of hydrogen) and hydrogen trucks to distribute consumer products.

In the medium to long term, industrial feedstock and electricity buffering are also likely to be decarbonised by hydrogen, as well as potentially some niches in other mobility applications and the built environment.

 

https://www2.deloitte.com/nl/nl/pages/sustainability/articles/creating-a-viable-hydrogen-economy.html

Motherhood statements. No numbers.

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Except that article doesnt show anything about low costs.

Try this one. Green hydrogen will obviously only be viable when electricity production becomes cheap enough.

 

https://earth.org/green-hydrogen-energy/

 

Green energy is already competitive with fossil fuel power. Nuclear won't make the cut because of it's high cost and lead time apart from the waste and risk considerations.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-levelized-cost-of-energy-generation-in-the-us-by-technology/

Edited July 17, 2022 by ozimoron

[Sparktrader]

https://carsalesbase.com/hydrogen-fuel-cells-not-future/

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Try this one. Green hydrogen will obviously only be viable when electricity production becomes cheap enough.

 

https://earth.org/green-hydrogen-energy/

 

Green energy is already competitive with fossil fuel power. Nuclear won't make the cut because of it's high cost and lead time apart from the waste and risk considerations.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/493797/estimated-levelized-cost-of-energy-generation-in-the-us-by-technology/

Hydrogen, the simplest known element in the universe, may very well be an essential source of clean energy in the years ahead. But hydrogen isn’t necessarily ‘green’ – in fact, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, in particular, natural gas – and hydrogen still needs the support of both the public and private sectors to realise its potential as a clean energy source.

[Sparktrader]

Anyway enough clutching at straws.

 

Topic about mkts

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Hydrogen, the simplest known element in the universe, may very well be an essential source of clean energy in the years ahead. But hydrogen isn’t necessarily ‘green’ – in fact, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, in particular, natural gas – and hydrogen still needs the support of both the public and private sectors to realise its potential as a clean energy source.

My links addressed that issue. More and more electricity is being generated by solar and wind at low cost. Large scale solar provides the means to produce green hydrogen.

 

Mining billionaire Andrew Forrest has turned the first sod for construction of the world's largest electrolyser facility in central Queensland, where he also announced a $3 billion investment in a wind, solar and battery farm.

 

Fortescue Future Industries' Green Energy Manufacturing (GEM) Centre will build equipment to make green hydrogen, including electrolysers and wind turbines, with stage one going up at Aldoga, west of Gladstone.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-28/andrew-forrest-begins-work-on-green-hydrogen-hub-in-gladstone/100865988

Edited July 17, 2022 by ozimoron

[Sparktrader]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

My links addressed that issue. More and more electricity is being generated by solar and wind at low cost. Large scale solar provides the means to produce green hydrogen.

 

Mining billionaire Andrew Forrest has turned the first sod for construction of the world's largest electrolyser facility in central Queensland, where he also announced a $3 billion investment in a wind, solar and battery farm.

 

Fortescue Future Industries' Green Energy Manufacturing (GEM) Centre will build equipment to make green hydrogen, including electrolysers and wind turbines, with stage one going up at Aldoga, west of Gladstone.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-28/andrew-forrest-begins-work-on-green-hydrogen-hub-in-gladstone/100865988

https://www.boilingcold.com.au/ten-hurdles-to-twiggys-green-vision-for-fmg/

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

https://www.boilingcold.com.au/ten-hurdles-to-twiggys-green-vision-for-fmg/

Electrify all you can; hydrogen is a last resort

An emissions-free vehicle harnesses renewable electricity to rotate wheels, but how the energy makes the journey makes all the difference.

For battery electric vehicles, five per cent of the energy is lost getting power to the charger. Another 10 per cent disappears in charging and discharging the battery, and five per cent goes to the inefficiency of powering the vehicle. Eighty per cent of the energy generated by wind or solar is left to move the car.

Hydrogen is a different story. Making hydrogen uses 25 per cent of the original energy, 10 per cent is lost in compressing and transporting it, another 25 per cent is used in the hydrogen fuel cell, and some more in powering the car. Less than 40 per cent of the original renewable energy moves the vehicle.

So a hydrogen vehicle consumes twice the green electricity of a battery one. That means more solar panels, more wind turbines, more expense.

[ozimoron]

From the same article. I found it an interesting read.

 

Apart from some east coast coal fanatics, Australian industry knows it must decarbonise. The stick is to avoid an inevitable carbon cost of some type, and the carrot is capturing new opportunities available only to the cleanest and greenest products.

 

For Forrest, the prize is tackling the eight per cent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions from making steel.

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

From the same article. I found it an interesting read.

 

Apart from some east coast coal fanatics, Australian industry knows it must decarbonise. The stick is to avoid an inevitable carbon cost of some type, and the carrot is capturing new opportunities available only to the cleanest and greenest products.

 

For Forrest, the prize is tackling the eight per cent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions from making steel.

Quit while you are behind.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Quit while you are behind.

Is that you crying "uncle"? The best way to defeat me is to put up a cogent argument demonstrating that I am wrong. Personal attacks undercut your credibility on the issue in question.

[Sparktrader]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Is that you crying "uncle"? The best way to defeat me is to put up a cogent argument demonstrating that I am wrong. Personal attacks undercut your credibility on the issue in question.

I posted the facts. Made zero personal comments.

 

Hydrogen is expensive.

 

You just cant admit to being wrong.

[Sparktrader]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/12/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-dismisses-hydrogen-as-tool-for-energy-storage.html

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

I posted the facts. Made zero personal comments.

 

Hydrogen is expensive.

 

You just cant admit to being wrong.

"quit while you are behind" isn't a personal insult? On what planet?

[Sparktrader]

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

2 year bull mkt on gas.

I thought we'd dealt with the short / long term outlook quandary.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, argumentative, bickering posts and replies have been removed.  Please stay on topic.  

 

[Sparktrader]

Base?

[Sparktrader]

Rare earth

[swissie]

Gentlemen please, back to the present. Optimistic long term projections come cheap. 10 years from now, we will have reduced Russian energy dependancy by 90% The question remains:

HOW ARE WE GETTING THROUGH THE NEXT WINTER WITHOUT RUSSIAN GAS, without crippeling large parts of the European Industry?

In other words: The future is far away, but the present is knocking on our doors. And we are ill eqipped to handle the present.

Short term remedies/solutions very welome. Remedies by US TV Evangelist not welcome.

[Sparktrader]

Look at the coal price.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Sparktrader said:

Look at the coal price.

Don't those prices focus minds on alternatives?

[swissie]

6 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Look at the coal price.

I rather look at the stock market prices, within a bear market rally.

[Sparktrader]

Nickel has high use. Down lately.

[ozimoron]

Rising profits levels among the Australian corporate sector have been identified as one of the key causes for increasing inflation levels across the country, a new report has shown.

Research from The Australia Institute has revealed increasing profit levels among companies, and not increased wages for workers, have been contributing to rising inflation rates.

It comes as Treasurer Jim Chalmers warned families would have to endure tough economic times in the next couple of months as inflation continues to rise, adding to the rising cost of living.

 

https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/07/18/rising-profits-behind-inflation-report-2/

[Sparktrader]

3 minutes ago, swissie said:

I rather look at the stock market prices, within a bear market rally.

Coal prices drive coal stocks

Gold prices drive gold stocks

 

Iron ore and copper down, might be cheap soon.

 

Coal price looks maybe 10 to 20% higher

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I do, produce a credible criticism of McKinsey.

Off topic, McKinsey is a fraudulent organisation. Its technique is to promise the boards or CEO's of companies millions of dollars in cost savings, taking a 10% cut. It then comes in and destroys morale for about 6 months.

No-one ever goes back after a couple of years and runs an audit on whether the cost savings were actually achieved, or the enforced changes actually ended up costing more in the long term. It would be too embarrassing.

[Lacessit]

11 hours ago, swissie said:

Always love a good discussion. Appearantly we assess the situation differently.

But I am sure we can agree on 1 point:

- Without Russian Gas, Europe will find itself in economical dire straits soon. Sooner than the sanctions will put Russia in dire straits.

So, who has the better set of cards in this game?

With 30% of the European economy in a forced shutdown, I would not be surprised if the western Polit Pilgrims will re-direct the destination of their pilgrimage from Kiev to Moscow.
Under the motto: "Dear comrade Vladimir, would you please open the gas valve again".

With 30% of the economy in a forced shutdown, and the hedonistic westernes freezing their ass off, the solidarity with the Ukraine will fade quickly.
---------------------------------------------------
PS: The Ukraine was strongly linked to Russia since the 9th century. (politically, linguistically, culturally). What makes them want to be part of "the west"? It's the EU's financial "fodder through". Nothing else. Poland and Hungary are perfect examples. They share little "western values". The EU's financial "fodder trough" is of interest, nothing else.

Do we want and need more semi-failed states at the financial EU fodder trough?

It's far more likely Russia is going to be the failed state. America nearly sent itself broke with Vietnam, and they had a much larger economy.

 

You do seem to be obsessed with hedonistic and effete Westerners, Fact: The military arms of Western countries are professional soldiers, not the poorly-trained conscripts Russia is putting into the battlefield to be slaughtered.

 

IMO no Western leaders will be going to Moscow to beg for gas, because they realize Putin can't be allowed to get away with flouting international norms, and committing war crimes. It's Iraq invading Kuwait all over again, on a larger scale. When Putin says he wants to restore the USSR to its former glory, everyone is now taking him seriously

 

"What makes them want to be part of "the west"?."

 

Are you serious? When Stalin orchestrated a famine in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions which killed about 6 million Ukrainians, you think they will just say let bygones be bygones? Ukraine, Poland, Hungary etc. have had their taste of living under the Russian jackboot, no desire to repeat the experience.

 

Fact again: The linguistic links with Russia are enforced teaching of Russian in Ukrainian schools. Ukrainian itself is a separate language, with a different alphabet.

 

There are two excellent books on Russia I recommend you read. Old, but they still ring as true as when they were written:

 

"Journey Into Russia" by Sir Laurens van der Post.

 

" The Future is ours, Comrade"  by Joseph Novak.

 

They give pretty good insights of what it is like to live in a Soviet-style system, and that's where Putin is taking Russia.