Worried Parent

[bruceboy]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

[idle44mins]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

So, these "criminals" where teaching your daughter, you didn't know and everything was ok!!

Now the same people seem to have no qualifications and suddenly you're worried?

The Thai governments' requirement is a university degree, at least a BA of any kind.........of any kind. A bachelor in German is teaching your kid maybe English!!!!

Main point is: is your step daughter happy and is she learning something? If yes, stop worrying!!

[Flow]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

I understand you're worried about your daughter taught by unqualified and inexperienced teachers. However, I do not understand why you're worried whether they're employed at the school legally or illegally. It's the school's business not yours, I am afraid. But the big question that begs asking is, is your daughter gaining something out of the lesson? if your answer is yes, then, who cares...... TIT you know. And... background checks? hellooooooooooooo This Is Thailand.

[DragonQuest]

I agree with flow^^

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's be clear about our terms here. "Faking" qualifications- presenting yourself as having a degree of some type in support of a teacher's license in Thailand- constitutes a form of fraud and is penalised severely. It is still possible, however, to work legally as a teacher without even having a B.A. under certain circumstances if the schools accept you (for example, as a TEFL teacher).

OP, recently when teachers were caught with fake qualifications, they were punished quite heavily- thrown in jail, in fact. However, this punishment was applied inconsistently and it seems that other teachers from the same school guilty of the same crime were allowed to pay a fine (and, I believe, deported).

In theory, the schools themselves should have some liability- in fact, they are technically responsible for verifying that qualifications are real- and should also be heavily punished for *their* crimes. I think it would be entirely appropriate if someone in your school's staff were forced to resign to take responsibility, or if the school were fined heavily. However, this is Thailand, and that just isn't what schools are forced to do, so good luck with that.

Furthermore, being at a rural school, you should ask yourself (or maybe you should ask your school) just how much they are paying these foreign teachers. If you expect someone with a college degree to accept working in the countryside for 20K (as some of these jobs advertise) for very long, then I've got a bridge to sell you. It's a teacher's market out there right now, and you may need to convince your school they have to raise wages- either that, accept the present situation, or take your child out of the school (assuming there are any better options around). You could always do what many better-off rural Thai do and send your daughter to a boarding school in Bangkok or abroad.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

All concerned parents, guardians, etc., have concerns about who teaches their children. Fake credentials present a special problem, with 'teachers' pretending to be someone they are not. That does not prove, though, that he was a bad teacher, or a pervert, or a serial killer, etc.

Thailand probably doesn't have a law that's enforced, requiring teachers to have degrees, or criminal checks, etc. Thousands of teachers never get work permits especially when the schools refuse to get off their bum and help them get work permits! (personal pet peeve showing up there)

[bruceboy]

A big thank you to Ijustwannateach and peaceblondie for getting my point. Of course I would prefer if the teachers at my daughter’s school all had degrees but realize with the pay and conditions in Thailand teachers face in Thailand this is not always realistic. What I strongly object to is people lying and committing fraud by submitting forged papers to the Thai government. This alone makes someone a criminal, idle44mins, but what really worries me is that if someone is committing fraud what other crimes have they committed in the past? No parent would want a someone with a history of violence or worse teaching their children.

[Ijustwannateach]

I rather think it's a long way from fraud to violence, especially if the school is complicit with the fraud and the fraud is accomplished to earn the charlatan the princely sum of 20-25K baht a month (when he must still do the actual work).

It's a continuing concern for everyone about the potential criminal backgrounds of BOTH Thai and foreign teachers in Thailand; you can read up on the confusion about what is being done regarding foreign teacher police checks in the two or three threads in the first one or two pages of threads in the teacher's room. But things are tightening in that regard.

Really, your only options are to trust the school or not, and if not to take your child out. Even the best bureaucracies have things falling through the cracks, and believe it or not- most of the murderers, pedophiles, and other crazies in Thailand are---- wait for it----- Thais.

"Steven"

[Jimjim]

There's not much you can do, or should, rather. If the teaching is sufficient why bother? Don't got on a crusade or anything. It won't help anyone's lives in your situation, I believe.

[stevemiddie]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country.

Some people take the view to leave alone. I disagree with them. I think you are quite right to have concerns.

A person that is prepared to commit a crime by using FAKE documents could easily be prepared to commit what other crimes? Who knows?

Point is he/she lied. Set out on a deliberate course to mislead the Thai authorities. He / she is lucky they are only deporting them.

Cases of this kind bring mistrust on all foreign teachers. Good riddance i say.

[FranklyNoMore]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

Before I begin my reply I will say that I dont really believe the OP. It sounds a bit far fetched to me. Possible, but unlikely to have happened. Anyhow, that said a rural teacher probabaly didnt need to have a degree to work at the school especially if it was a govenment school. The fact that he submitted a fake degree doesnt mean he was a criminal before hand. How do you know the school didnt encourage him to do this? Of course that doesnt mean his actions were right, as he knows the law im sure, but they may have asked him to submit it. And finally if you are REALLY worried about your daughters education, as you say you are, then you wouldnt have her educated in a Thai school, would you now? I'm sure there are far worse things going on at the school than a native speaker using a fake degree. Get real and open your eyes. Most of the Thai teachers at her school will have degrees that are worth as much as his fake one. As for the Thai teachers that are teaching your daughter English well i'm sure they are pretty useless too. Again his fake would be worth more than theirs. The questions you should be asking are, was he doing a good job? Were the students happy? etc etc. The need for a degree to teach in rural Thailand is complete doodoo. Infact, why anybody would need a degree to teach conversation is beyond me. Just a reasonable amount of common sense and a Tefl would suffice but thats be done to death. Most westerners wishing to teach have atleast that. As for the Thai teachers and common sense well thats another story of course! Concerned parent? Your concerns seem to be mis directed IMHO. But good luck with your daughters education. You probably doing a better job than the school.

[aussiestyle1983]

A teacher at my daughters rural school has been caught with fake qualifications. He has been given two weeks to leave the country. However I am worried that other teachers at the school are working illegally and have not been though any of the checks now demanded by the Thai government. What can a concerned step father do to ensure no more criminal teachers find work at my daughters school? I have met with the Kru Yai to discuss this issue beofre but she seemed not to understand the laws and regulations that apply to foreign teachers.

Before I begin my reply I will say that I dont really believe the OP. It sounds a bit far fetched to me. Possible, but unlikely to have happened. Anyhow, that said a rural teacher probabaly didnt need to have a degree to work at the school especially if it was a govenment school. The fact that he submitted a fake degree doesnt mean he was a criminal before hand. How do you know the school didnt encourage him to do this? Of course that doesnt mean his actions were right, as he knows the law im sure, but they may have asked him to submit it. And finally if you are REALLY worried about your daughters education, as you say you are, then you wouldnt have her educated in a Thai school, would you now? I'm sure there are far worse things going on at the school than a native speaker using a fake degree. Get real and open your eyes. Most of the Thai teachers at her school will have degrees that are worth as much as his fake one. As for the Thai teachers that are teaching your daughter English well i'm sure they are pretty useless too. Again his fake would be worth more than theirs. The questions you should be asking are, was he doing a good job? Were the students happy? etc etc. The need for a degree to teach in rural Thailand is complete doodoo. Infact, why anybody would need a degree to teach conversation is beyond me. Just a reasonable amount of common sense and a Tefl would suffice but thats be done to death. Most westerners wishing to teach have atleast that. As for the Thai teachers and common sense well thats another story of course! Concerned parent? Your concerns seem to be mis directed IMHO. But good luck with your daughters education. You probably doing a better job than the school.

Very good post.

Here are a few questions for the OP:

Was the teacher REALLY caught with fake qualifications or were the Thais involved exagerating?

How many other foriegn teachers at that school have fake qualifications (including the ones you might no know about)?

How many Thai teachers at that school have fake qualifications (you will never know)?

Is this teacher a good teacher who just does not have a degree, or is he a reall scum bag?

Would you rather have your kid being taught English by a farang with fake qualifications or a Thai with fake qualifications?

Would you rather have your kid being taught English by a farang with fake qualifications or by a hopeless Thai teacher with real qualifications?

You either need to take your kid out of this school and put your hand into your back pocket and pay high school fees for your kid to be taught by qualified teachers in an Intl school or just mind your own business and accept the fact that there is a shortage or english teachers and that you are the one who enrolled you kid in a school that can't afford to hire real, qualified teachers. Keep in mind it could have been the school that told this teacher to use fake qualifications and the school is just blaming the teacher now because that is how it works in Thailand. So do you want your kid to go to a school with no ethical standards as well?

Edited June 24, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[Scott]

I wouldn't worry too much about a teacher being caught with a fake degree here in Thailand. This type of "fraud" is not uncommon. Most of these teachers aren't serious criminals and your daughter's safety probably isn't in jeopardy.

I am not making light of fake creditials, but people need to understand that it is extremely easy to get a fake degree. Nothing sinister or difficult about it (or so I am told). No big amounts of money change hands etc. So we can't really put it into the same context as we do in Western countries.

Chances are other teachers at the school are now "on notice" about the situation and will either make a hasty exit or cover their backsides somehow. I would be curious as to how he got he got caught.

The other thing I don't understand is how some people think the schools are all "complicit" in the fake qualifications. The regulation on verification of degrees is relatively new. Prior to that time, I know the school I work at didn't routinely check degrees unless they had a reason too--such as the person just didn't appear to have the qualifications they presented; they received a MA within 2 months of getting a BA etc., Otherwise the general belief was that the person was honest. Occasionally, the MOE would request that we check because they saw a diploma from the same school that was designed quite differently.

I don't like the idea of investigating teachers. I am not a law enforcement official and I don't have the same resources they have. And I certainly don't have the legal expertise (or time) to take it to it's next level--court, jail, deportation etc.

[Neeranam]

A big thank you to Ijustwannateach and peaceblondie for getting my point. Of course I would prefer if the teachers at my daughter’s school all had degrees but realize with the pay and conditions in Thailand teachers face in Thailand this is not always realistic. What I strongly object to is people lying and committing fraud by submitting forged papers to the Thai government. This alone makes someone a criminal, idle44mins, but what really worries me is that if someone is committing fraud what other crimes have they committed in the past? No parent would want a someone with a history of violence or worse teaching their children.

You're worried about the farang teacher? I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

Do it yourself.

Also, I have a criminal past and done my time - should I be banished forever? Don't you believe in rehabilitation?

[Ijustwannateach]

There's certainly a wide array of offenses of various kinds in various countries. Technically speaking, in certain U.S. states, it's still an imprisonable offense to have consensual oral sex, even with your wife or husband. One would hope that the Thai government will take a common-sense attitude towards the police checks and target them more towards crimes of violence and crimes against children. It seems likely, though, that they will never tell us what the goalposts are and leave themselves free to hedge their bets.

[Loaded]

most teachers in rural schools are employed either through 'adventure' intern programmes for one academic semester and have paid up to 1500 bucks for the privilege. or they're employed through an agency or they're employed in a rural school because they love Thailand, can speak Thai and really want to make a difference to people's lives and are prepared to make big material sacrifices to do so. If this teacher fits the last category, your child is lucky. However, using fake certificates is dangerous, unnecessary and silly.

[walterego]

This is my first post, Thank you Thai Visa and all of your memebers for your support in educating me over the 2 years past, i have found all your input invaluable in making my decisions in preperation for a new career.

I am leaving my industry to teach english in asia ..namely Thailand to start, i would never be able to teach in australia as the education department and unions are fickle regarding qualifications (and probably rightly so). I have completed an 'online' degree from a USA 'online' university (a BA in another discipline). i hope to use it. i have also completed a thorough TEFL certification process. i will refuse to submit a police check and can provide an abundance of personal, checkable references. I do so very much hope i can get a teaching post in Thailand.. legally with a work permit, and yes for the opportunity i am only to happy to be paid 25,000 baht a month (especially since my Thai extends to about ten words.. mostly related to food items from my favorite Thai restaurant menu),  at least for the first year. firstly can anyone advise me if i will have any problems getting a post given the above?

secondly(i could not resist the urge to reply here because i feel very strongly 

bout this issue,

 Although i do not mean to flame any one individual)

i am appaled that anyone wanting to teach young minds would deceive, if i had children i would share your concern as what kind of role model is this person going to be if they are willing to defraud. regardless of wether or not the person is good at teaching them English, school age children are impressionable and they need to be led by honest people, that is only my personal belief (all be it a very common one) and if i was a parent i would share your concern grately.

I would like to say that , using myself as an example, have gone to great lengths to research, study and obtain the paperwork necessary, (degree+ TEFL etc) to teach. If people are allowed to defraud and blag their way through, what point is there? in fact what point is there in any of you having any qualifications whatsoever?, especialy for you guys with Dip eds and the like, hucksters will surely only take away and damage your industry devoiding the value of your own hard earned qualifications 

(no wonder wages are so low)and the teaching industry.

I dont know about you guys, and i admit i havent taught yet, nor have i yet even been to Thailand (hahaha knowing this site i may well cop a lot for this as you wil cons

der me naive and

 given i probably am) though my flight is booked. I consider it a huge honour to teach children/ teens/ adults. rememeber every single one of us is in our own way also an ambasadoor for our countrys and in our own small way the way we are represented to the Thai national (especially in case teaching children) wil stick in these peoples/students minds for the rest of their life. Why did i even bother with getting the documents i need if people inside the industry are willing to defend those who are obvious cheats of the system, what does that say about our level of concern for the quality of education? For those Thai who pay for lessons, at the price they pay compared to the average Thai wage, they DESERVE to get someone who knows what they are talking about, especially when it comes to advanced language. If you support or protect those who commit crime, in this case fraud you are guilty by association.

I apreciate that I may be naive and perhaps even ignorant of a situation i have not yet experienced however, Your teaching children, please , please be honest.

[Scott]

Welcome--a good post.

I think the point being made by a few (myself included), is not that it is either right or acceptable to fake creditials--it isn't. It is easy in Thailand, too easy and thus too tempting. It is certainly OK to question the integrity of such people, but as a very general rule, I wouldn't assume they are hardened criminals fleeing interpol.

You shouldn't have any trouble finding a job in Thailand, but--at least in the area where I work--the police clearance is essential. The paperwork comes back like a boomarang without it.

Best of luck to you.

[stevemiddie]

For............ Walterego

Can you clarify what US Uni online degree and what is the Institutes name?

Reason i ask is that Chonburi province MoE are now in possesssion of a list of Uni,s that are NOT acceptable to them. ( whether they act on that is another matter ) This includes all the " Degree Mills " and other institutes that are not accredited to issue legit degrees.

You may find it difficult to get the initial Non Imm B Visa from an overseas consulate / Embassy if you are applying for employment as a teacher in Thailand. This is because a lot of European countries ( not sure about the US ) are now stating that a current Police Check is a requirement before issue of such visa.

I,m not quite sure why you would want to refuse to have one given that your post is quite specific about honesty and integrity as a teacher for children?

[Jimmyd]

I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

That's an astonishing statement.

[Scott]

Stevemiddie: Thanks for the update on your area. I have been wondering if they were ever going to get around to figuring out about accredited vs non-accredited universities. I know that in the US there are a number of Bible colleges that aren't accredited, I don't know which ones though.

We had two teachers who came from a Bible college. I doubt that it was accredited, but they did get non-immigrant B visas and they were good teachers.

You might want to post your info on Qualifications revisited on the teaching thread and any other information that you might have.

[stevemiddie]

Good point. OK.

[stevemiddie]

I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

That's an astonishing statement.

I agree. I don,t think you have actually been around any " well qualified teachers "

Still...............all the best with it. You are doing what you believe to be the best for your daughter so you cannot be faulted for that.

[Jersey_UK]

I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

That's an astonishing statement.

I am probably being a bit thick here, but I don't see what is "astonishing" about a parent being better at teaching children English than any teacher. (if the parent is a Native or Fluent Speaker).

Regarding OP, I would not worry about the teacher being fired for having a fake degree. I would worry more that they lying about the reason for his / her sudden departure. Probably discovered fiddling with the school goat, or he brought Noi from Nana to the PTA

[Neeranam]

I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

That's an astonishing statement.

I agree. I don,t think you have actually been around any " well qualified teachers "

Still...............all the best with it. You are doing what you believe to be the best for your daughter so you cannot be faulted for that.

What I mean is that I can teach them better as I have them around me all the time.

I was in the business for years, of course I've been around well qualified teachers. I'm well qualified myself.

Also, the better the qualifications the teacher has doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether or not they can teach, in Thailand anyway. The guys with the PhD and MA in Tesol can't usually keep a job with out it. Usually guys who go back to get it in later life(ie over 35)

Edited June 26, 2007 by Neeranam

[Moonfruit]

Astonishing to read the replies above either accepting the fake degree position with a 'mai pen rai, TIT' attitude, or even going so far as to say 'if the classes were ok, then theres nothing wrong.' Unbelievable.

If you dicovered that your financial advisor/Doctor was working with false credentials would the reaction and reasoning be the same?

Children, and my daughter in particular (obviously!) are our future, like the cliche says. As they spend more time in school than with their parents, then we are entrusting the better part of their education to those teachers. We are basically entrusting their future lives to those same teachers to some degree. I know that i will only entrust the education of my daughter to truly qualified and gifted teachers. Indeed, she goes to a cheaper school here in Bangkok because after grilling the teachers, and observing classes from the exterior of the classroom i found the standard of teaching to be much greater than the very beautiful (facility wise) and better equipped school that is 100m from our home.

Bottom line here is that our kids are special, and i want only special (read qualified in educational practices, enthusiastic, honest and caring) people to be around me daughter. Im sure other parents feel the same.

So, for those guys posting above (maybe the fake qualification topic hit a nerve??) i think that might outline the OP's feelings somewhat for you.

For other parents concerned, i suggest you do the same as i and subtly grill your kids teachers. They are freely available whenever you need to meet them, and getting into personal conversation after/while discussing your kids latest homework can reveal much.

[Jimmyd]

I teach my daughters English myself, a lot better than any well qualified teacher could do.

That's an astonishing statement.

I agree. I don,t think you have actually been around any " well qualified teachers "

Still...............all the best with it. You are doing what you believe to be the best for your daughter so you cannot be faulted for that.

What I mean is that I can teach them better as I have them around me all the time.

I was in the business for years, of course I've been around well qualified teachers. I'm well qualified myself.

Also, the better the qualifications the teacher has doesn't seem to have much bearing on whether or not they can teach, in Thailand anyway. The guys with the PhD and MA in Tesol can't usually keep a job with out it. Usually guys who go back to get it in later life(ie over 35)

Ok, I get it now. At first I took it as a statement of superiority, but I do realize that time is of the essence in language instruction--the more time the student spends using the target language the better. The parent has the best opportunity to spend the most hours helping the children acquire the language.

My mistake was that I just took it as a statement like "I'm the best teacher in the world." That is not how you meant it, Neeranam, and I apologize for misunderstanding your meaning.

I also agree with your statement that impressive degrees do not necessarily make a good teacher.

[TheChiefJustice]

Deportation should be the punishment of choice for foreigners faking teacher qualifications. Being merely dismissed is, in my opinion, far too lenient. It is not acceptable under any circumstances to fake qualifications to obtain employment.

[FranklyNoMore]

Astonishing to read the replies above either accepting the fake degree position with a \'mai pen rai, TIT\' attitude, or even going so far as to say \'if the classes were ok, then theres nothing wrong.\' Unbelievable.

If you dicovered that your financial advisor/Doctor was working with false credentials would the reaction and reasoning be the same?

Children, and my daughter in particular (obviously!) are our future, like the cliche says. As they spend more time in school than with their parents, then we are entrusting the better part of their education to those teachers. We are basically entrusting their future lives to those same teachers to some degree. I know that i will only entrust the education of my daughter to truly qualified and gifted teachers. Indeed, she goes to a cheaper school here in Bangkok because after grilling the teachers, and observing classes from the exterior of the classroom i found the standard of teaching to be much greater than the very beautiful (facility wise) and better equipped school that is 100m from our home.

Bottom line here is that our kids are special, and i want only special (read qualified in educational practices, enthusiastic, honest and caring) people to be around me daughter. Im sure other parents feel the same.

So, for those guys posting above (maybe the fake qualification topic hit a nerve??) i think that might outline the OP\'s feelings somewhat for you.

For other parents concerned, i suggest you do the same as i and subtly grill your kids teachers. They are freely available whenever you need to meet them, and getting into personal conversation after/while discussing your kids latest homework can reveal much.

I dont condone anyone for using a fake degree and if they are caught then they deserve to have the book thrown at them because they are breaking the law. But you are in a dreamworld if you think your daughter is getting a quality education at her Thai school from quality educated Thai teachers, especially the Thai English teachers. You actually have to be working at a school to really appreciate what goes on and much of it is quite laughable, corrupt, uncaring with little enthusiasm unless money is to be made. This IS Thailand and this IS the way it is for most students at school. A caring teacher using a fake to stay in the country is better than a abuser with a real degree. The one teacher i knew using a fake only did so to be legal and I think many teachers were forced down that route and not because they were criminals. To me If you really care you would educate your daughter outside of Thailand but you choose to stay for what ever reasons you do and like so many other parents you are trying to do the best for your daughter in an extemely flawed education system. Take a reality check!

[bruceboy]

Astonishing to read the replies above either accepting the fake degree position with a 'mai pen rai, TIT' attitude, or even going so far as to say 'if the classes were ok, then theres nothing wrong.' Unbelievable.

If you dicovered that your financial advisor/Doctor was working with false credentials would the reaction and reasoning be the same?

Children, and my daughter in particular (obviously!) are our future, like the cliche says. As they spend more time in school than with their parents, then we are entrusting the better part of their education to those teachers. We are basically entrusting their future lives to those same teachers to some degree. I know that i will only entrust the education of my daughter to truly qualified and gifted teachers. Indeed, she goes to a cheaper school here in Bangkok because after grilling the teachers, and observing classes from the exterior of the classroom i found the standard of teaching to be much greater than the very beautiful (facility wise) and better equipped school that is 100m from our home.

Bottom line here is that our kids are special, and i want only special (read qualified in educational practices, enthusiastic, honest and caring) people to be around me daughter. Im sure other parents feel the same.

So, for those guys posting above (maybe the fake qualification topic hit a nerve??) i think that might outline the OP's feelings somewhat for you.

For other parents concerned, i suggest you do the same as i and subtly grill your kids teachers. They are freely available whenever you need to meet them, and getting into personal conversation after/while discussing your kids latest homework can reveal much.

Thanks for the support. I, by chance, bumped into one of the young teachers at the school. He was polite and obviously reasonably educated; he mentioned in passing his time at university. I mentioned the fate of his former colleague and he said one of the other teachers was an obvious fraudster; 58 and a retired lorry driver . In the UK only around 5% of his (and my) generation went to university so to claim to have attained a degree and pursued career as a bloody trucker is obsurd! I intend to persue this matter. All the Dads out there will understand where I am coming from.

Edited July 2, 2007 by bruceboy