New build in Prachin Buri

[Ade1969]

Hi I’m going to be building with the insulated brick & wondered if I should get my builder to build double walls to reduce heat inside the building? My other question is regarding insulation. My builder wants to use the foil backed insulation & I wondered if this was sufficient? The house is a two storey building, I’m not sure how relevant that is. Thanks in advance for all replies. 
 

Ade

[carlyai]

If you are building cavity walls I would use 2 rows of those 7.5 cm QCon blocks with an air gap in between, also for all your cables, conduit etc. in the cavity.

Where I am most of the heat comes from the roof so for me it makes sense to use all you can to help stop the heat penertration. So many barriers, roof tiles/tin barrier, best R rating insulating barrier, ceiling insulation 

barrier, cross-flow air barrier. You need the lot.

So I would go with the insulation that has the best insulation properties, not cheap for a big house. It should not be touching the roof tiles or colorbond roof, but about 2" away. Don't cover the eves as you need those slatted eves to let the cooler air in and exit thru the gable end of the roof space.

Others may disagree. ????

 

 

 

 

[unheard]

@Ade1969

You haven't mentioned if you're prepared to pay for real good insulating values.

The ACC block is the best material. But it will cost you more compared to red brick (material and labor).

If you choose ACC then you'll have to make sure that your builder is familiar and qualified to work with that material, or it will get you in trouble later on.

Cavity walls do work wonders but also cost more compared to the single layer walls.

From best to worse as related to insulating values:

 

ACC cavity wall - 7.5cm blocks.

ACC wall - 15 or 20cm blocks

Brick cavity wall

Brick standard wall

 

Don't use foil insulation on walls.

As carlya has mentioned in the post above, you'd also need to insulate the roof/ceiling structure.

IMHO, the best and relatively cost efficient option is the PU insulated Bluescope metal roof. The 25mm thick PU foam is a proven and efficient insulating material.

Properly done ridge vented roofs are also great, but virtually unknown around here.

You might also want to insulate the ceilings with fiberglass batts.

 

But even if you've chosen to pay for the best insulated roof and walls, your house will still be hot on the inside if you go with the Thai standard single pane aluminum windows.

Thai PVC windows would be better, but not by much.

Especially if many of them are facing the afternoon Sun.

Only the western standard, double pane, Argon gas filled, solar glass PVC windows would provide sufficient insulation as compared to other measures mentioned above.

That all costs money, especially the western standard windows.

You'll will need to find the best combination of measures to fit your particular budget.

Or you might want to save on all that expense, get a minimum of insulation on the roof/ceiling, opt for the cheapest walls and windows, shade the house with trees from the direct Sunlight and just run A/Cs.

Edited October 20, 2022 by unheard

[GarryP]

24 minutes ago, unheard said:

@Ade1969

You haven't mentioned if you're prepared to pay for real good insulating values.

The ACC block is the best material. But it will cost you more compared to red brick (material and labor).

If you choose ACC then you'll have to make sure that your builder is familiar and qualified to work with that material, or it will get you in trouble later on.

Cavity walls do work wonders but also cost more compared to the single layer walls.

From best to worse as related to insulating values:

 

ACC cavity wall - 7.5cm blocks.

ACC wall - 15 or 20cm blocks

Brick cavity wall

Brick standard wall

 

Don't use foil insulation on walls.

As carlya has mentioned in the post above, you'd also need to insulate the roof/ceiling structure.

IMHO, the best and relatively cost efficient option is the PU insulated Bluescope metal roof. The 25mm thick PU foam is a proven and efficient insulating material.

Properly done ridge vented roofs are also great, but virtually unknown around here.

You might also want to insulate the ceilings with fiberglass batts.

 

But even if you've chosen to pay for the best insulated roof and walls, your house will still be hot on the inside if you go with the Thai standard single pane aluminum windows.

Thai PVC windows would be better, but not by much.

Especially if many of them are facing the afternoon Sun.

Only the western standard, double pane, Argon gas filled, solar glass PVC windows would provide sufficient insulation as compared to other measures mentioned above.

That all costs money, especially the western standard windows.

You'll will need to find the best combination of measures to fit your particular budget.

Or you might want to save on all that expense, get a minimum of insulation on the roof/ceiling, opt for the cheapest walls and windows, shade the house with trees from the direct Sunlight and just run A/Cs.

I was going to go with single thickness 15cm ACC block walls, but they were not readily available where my house is being built so I went with 7.5cm blocks and cavity walls instead. As to cost, two 7.5cm blocks were cheaper than a single 15cm block so there was cost saving on the blocks but added expense for the mortar and labour. Still glad that I ended up going with cavity walls though.      

[KhunLA]

Double walled insulated Q bloc or whatever named version of, is a bit redundant, IMHO.  2 houses using and I didn't bother and houses were fine.   More important is shading your exposed walls; E - S - W.  

 

I'm assuming foil insulation is for the ceiling/roof space, then yes use, and they have 37/38 here, which we used.  I would also recommend BluScope rolled steel roof, with thickest insulation available.  Not that much more expensive, and all, insulation, will pay for itself vs cooling bills.

 

We just got done a build, using said materials, and the house stay quite cool.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[sometimewoodworker]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:40 PM, KhunLA said:

Double walled insulated Q bloc or whatever named version of, is a bit redundant, IMHO.  2 houses using and I didn't bother and houses were fine.

Anecdotal information can be useful it may be bunk. The points about using double walls is just focused on heat. Of equal importance is sound. We have a close to silent house in normal conditions, that it helped by room fans that are equally quiet and a bedroom AC that though not as quiet as I would like is only just audible.

 

foil insulation fan be good in the correct roof locations 

[Muhendis]

Ten years ago I moved into my two story house which has polystyrene filled cavity walls the bricks are those little red clay things.

I had no roof space insulation at the time and it was unbearably hot at times.

Last year I finally got round to doing something about it.

Boy what a difference that made. I wish i'd done it a lot sooner.

The stuff I used was 6" quilted, foil covered fibreglass..

[Encid]

20 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Ten years ago I moved into my two story house which has polystyrene filled cavity walls the bricks are those little red clay things.

Have you ever had any problems with rodents (rats, mice, geckos, tookays, snakes etc.) taking up residence in your polystyrene?

Or are the cavity walls capped to prevent ingress?

[Muhendis]

12 hours ago, Encid said:

Have you ever had any problems with rodents (rats, mice, geckos, tookays, snakes etc.) taking up residence in your polystyrene?

Or are the cavity walls capped to prevent ingress?

No. I don't have any of those in relation to the cavity wall insulation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "capped to prevent ingress" but the construction of the house is such that nothing has access to the cavity.

 

It is a typical frame construction of rc pillars and beams with the walls filling up the areas top to bottom in between. Any access for water and electrics which goes through the cavity is well sealed.

 

We do have plenty of small animals that live in and around the garden but apart from the occasional snake which sneaks in through the open doors, they tend to stick to their own territory which unfortunately includes my rice storage barn ????.

[Encid]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:09 AM, Muhendis said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "capped to prevent ingress" but the construction of the house is such that nothing has access to the cavity.

That is exactly what I meant... thanks!

 

[Encid]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:32 PM, GarryP said:

I was going to go with single thickness 15cm ACC block walls, but they were not readily available where my house is being built so I went with 7.5cm blocks and cavity walls instead. As to cost, two 7.5cm blocks were cheaper than a single 15cm block so there was cost saving on the blocks but added expense for the mortar and labour. Still glad that I ended up going with cavity walls though.      

Your thermal (and possibly sonic) insulation would possibly be better too.

 

According to the QCON Engineering Handbook (excerpt below) 20cm blocks have a thermal efficiency of 2.342 against 1.079 for the 7.5cm brick.

By using 2x7.5cm blocks with a cavity between, your thermal efficiency would be 2.158, but that does not account for the 5cm air gap between the blocks... surely that must account for something?

 

Adding a 5cm thk EPS (expanded polystyrene) foam barrier inside the cavity as @Muhendis has done would increase the thermal (and sonic?) insulation (or Thermal Resistivity) even further by between 1.13 and 1.28 (ref: AS1366, Part 3 -1992), thus providing a total R value of about 3.358.

 

 

I think that one of the other major benefits of going with a cavity wall is the ability to run electrical conduits (and water piping) inside the cavity, which results in only localized holes being drilled for light switches, power outlets etc.

 

With a single block/brick wall a channel has to be drilled from above the ceiling (where the electrical conduits are run) down the wall until the elevation of the light switches and power outlets is reached, then run the conduit and cables, then grout it all back up again... often resulting in irregularities in the finished surface which painting cannot hide.

 

[Encid]

Further to the Thermal Resistivity issue, QCON claim that AAC blocks insulate heat 4-8 times better than the standard Thai red bricks, although I cannot find any online data to support that claim.

 

 

[Muhendis]

19 minutes ago, Encid said:

Your thermal (and possibly sonic) insulation would possibly be better too.

 

According to the QCON Engineering Handbook (excerpt below) 20cm blocks have a thermal efficiency of 2.342 against 1.079 for the 7.5cm brick.

By using 2x7.5cm blocks with a cavity between, your thermal efficiency would be 2.158, but that does not account for the 5cm air gap between the blocks... surely that must account for something?

 

Adding a 5cm thk EPS (expanded polystyrene) foam barrier inside the cavity as @Muhendis has done would increase the thermal (and sonic?) insulation (or Thermal Resistivity) even further by between 1.13 and 1.28 (ref: AS1366, Part 3 -1992), thus providing a total R value of about 3.358.

 

 

I think that one of the other major benefits of going with a cavity wall is the ability to run electrical conduits (and water piping) inside the cavity, which results in only localized holes being drilled for light switches, power outlets etc.

 

With a single block/brick wall a channel has to be drilled from above the ceiling (where the electrical conduits are run) down the wall until the elevation of the light switches and power outlets is reached, then run the conduit and cables, then grout it all back up again... often resulting in irregularities in the finished surface which painting cannot hide.

 

That's an interesting collection of thermal conductivity numbers.

 

https://www.buildingtalk.com/improving-insulation-by-lowering-thermal-conductivity/

 

I new there was a way to calculate the insulating properties when I had my house built but building materials is not my forte so Is settled for the filled cavity and the (almost) sturdy red clay bricks.

 

What I do know is that with the sun shining full blast on the outer wall it is hot to the touch. placing my hand on the inside wall on the same location and the wall feels cool to touch which suits me just fine.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Muhendis

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Encid said:

Further to the Thermal Resistivity issue, QCON claim that AAC blocks insulate heat 4-8 times better than the standard Thai red bricks, although I cannot find any online data to support that claim.

The R value for a 7.5cm thick AAC block is 3.25, the grey block has an R value of only 1. Red brick has an R value of 0.4

 

to re-quote a posting where I had calculated costs for an insulation value of 1

 

I did some calculations on price per sqm for each block including materials and labour: [note the old date is 2012]

 

We have an insulated wall cost

AAC 7.5cm 87 Baht per sm - r value 1[b](best value for a single wall)[/b]

AAC 20cm 84 Baht per sm - r value 1 [old price]

Red brick 505 Baht per sm - r value 1 [old price]

Cinder block 179 Baht per sm - r value 1 [old price]

Double cinder block, with insulation 42 Baht per sm - r value 1 [old price] [b] (best value for a double wall)[/b]

 

So if heat insulation is your only goal then the double cinder block wall with added insulation is the best value for money. However if you want to attach items to the walls then cinder blocks and red brick are a very poor choice AAC is clearly the winner.

 

The prices would need to be updated for changes to material and labour costs, along with a more formal testing regimen.

 

red brick is a horrendously expensive material to use if you want a cool Thai house

Edited October 24, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So if heat insulation is your only goal then the double cinder block wall with added insulation is the best value for money. However if you want to attach items to the walls then cinder blocks and red brick are a very poor choice AAC is clearly the winner.

Great information, thanks for that but sadly your information would have been of practical use over 10 years ago. My concerns then were that the ACC did not seem strong enough to hang things on. As it is I have no problems attaching anything to my clay brick walls so I'm not too concerned. But if I were to do it again........

[unheard]

15 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

red brick is a horrendously expensive material to use if you want a cool Thai house

This is a very confusing statement.

If you want to build an insulated house then It's gonna cost you tons of money as compared to a regular house cheaply built with default materials/procedures.

There's no way around that.

You'd also want to consider thermal properties of every other major component of the house - roof, ceiling, windows, doors.

Insulated walls on their own won't make enough of a difference to justify the extra expense if the rest of the house is composed of default cheap materials.

Even a cheap house can be kept sufficiently cool with just properly insulated ceiling and completely shaded from direct Sun wall/windows.

Edited October 25, 2022 by unheard

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, unheard said:

This is a very confusing statement.

It is hardly confusing unless you have a meaning of confusing that is idiosyncratic and possibly unique.

 

Red brick 505 Baht per sqm - r value 1 [old price] (NB old and new prices of red brick are similar)

AAC 7.5cm 87 Baht per sqm - r value 1

Maybe you have some new math where a cost of 8 times higher does not equate to a horrendously expensive material to use. Or where a wall built with one that has an insulation value of 0.4 (red brick) and the other that is over 8 times better at 3.25 is remotely confusing.

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[MAF666]

Regarding the roof, we have 2 buildings-230 square metres each.

The house building has white Thai colorbond 50mm sandwich roof. Cost b124k. Bluescope quote was b245k. Kitchen area plain white Thai uninsulated colorbond. Cost -b55k.

2 years in, the uninsulated roof is -2• hotter in the room, as per temperature sensors.

The uninsulated roof often condenses at night. Cool nights in Chanthaburi.

During heavy downpours we cannot have a conversation in the kitchen.

The house is acceptable for noise.

Brutalist design house, so the sandwich underside is our ceiling .

[unheard]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Maybe you have some new math where a cost of 8 times higher does not equate to a horrendously expensive material to use.

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers.

Are you trying to convince everyone on this thread that the cheap Red Brick - the default building material for every cheap and not so cheap house currently built in Thailand is actually horrendously expensive?

Don't you see the glaring contradiction?

Have you priced a house building project lately?

In both, Red bricks and ACC blocks?

Have you priced the labor cost differences?

Do you know that most of the lower and even medium tier house builders use red bricks exclusively?

Certainly not because it's such a "horrendously expensive material"...

[unheard]

1 hour ago, MAF666 said:

white Thai colorbond 50mm sandwich roof. Cost b124k. Bluescope quote was b245k. Kitchen area plain white Thai uninsulated colorbond. Cost -b55k.

Can you elaborate on "Thai Colorbond"?

Did you mean the Chinese/Korean metal panels?

Colorbond is the higher quality grade manufactured by Bluescope in Thaland, which is the most expensive and carries the longest warranty.

Bluescope also offer the lower grade called Zachs, which is cheaper with shorter warranty.

[sometimewoodworker]

16 minutes ago, unheard said:

Are you trying to convince everyone on this thread that the cheap Red Brick - the default building material for every cheap and not so cheap house currently built in Thailand is actually horrendously expensive?

Did you actually bother to read the post.

 

of course red bricks are cheap, though the amount of mortar makes them rather less cheap than most people think, they are also rather less than good for holding fasteners 

 

they are however horrendously expensive for insulation, fire retarding and sound reduction.

 

the common usage means little more than “it’s been done that way so we will repeat the methods of the past”

[unheard]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

they are however horrendously expensive for insulation, fire retarding and sound reduction.

OK, you win ????

[MAF666]

Yeah mate, know all about Bluescope colorbond.

We went with Thailand made equivalent. Made in Bangkok.

Ever tried to claim on a roof warranty?

There are 1 million plain galvanised sheds across Oz that are 
>50 years old, colorbond should be superior to galvanised