EV; seeking advice or suggestions.

[Robin]

At the moment I drive a Vios, bought new 5-6 years ago, and still going well.  When i have o replace it, i would like o consider Electric, but do not know if it would suit me.

MY car use is for trips with wife to local town or shops, with occasional longer runs, but to 200 Km.   My thought are that an EV might be suitable, and to fit my car port with solar panels so that the car ban be charged when not is use, thus saving on running costs.

Is this a viable scheme?  

Are there people who would install the appropriate solar equipment? (and know what they are doing, not the typical Thai wannabe workman)

I live in Phayao, and have not noticed any charging points, so should I be considering a Hybrid with ICE as a back-up for longer trips.

I doubt if I will be buying a new car this year, but I would like more information so that I can consider for he future,

 

Thanks in advance.

[MJCM]

10 minutes ago, Robin said:

MY car use is for trips with wife to local town or shops, with occasional longer runs, but to 200 Km.   My thought are that an EV might be suitable, and to fit my car port with solar panels so that the car ban be charged when not is use, thus saving on running costs.

Is this a viable scheme?  

Absolutely. We are thinking of doing the same thing.

 

You could also ask your electricity company (PEA / MEA) to install a 2nd Electricty Meter so that you can charge you car that way. They have something called a T.O.U. meter (Time of Use) and that just means that when you charge your car at night the electricity price is almost 50% of what it costs when charging during the day.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Robin said:

I live in Phayao, and have not noticed any charging points, so should I be considering a Hybrid with ICE as a back-up for longer trips.

Look at a website called Plugshare

 

https://www.plugshare.com/

 

And see what the options are in your area, in my area the closest by is a MG dealer which is 20kms away.

 

14 minutes ago, Robin said:

Are there people who would install the appropriate solar equipment? (and know what they are doing, not the typical Thai wannabe workman)

For that maybe open a topic in the Alternative Energy Forum and ask your questions there.

 

https://aseannow.com/forum/319-alternativerenewable-energy-forum/

 

 

[MJCM]

1 hour ago, Robin said:

I live in Phayao, and have not noticed any charging points, so should I be considering a Hybrid with ICE as a back-up for longer trips.

There are, here a screenshot of Plugshare (which I linked to in my previous post)

 

I have no idea if they are near to you.

 

[Lacessit]

Financially, the most sensible thing the OP can do is run his current Vios into the ground, which may be ten years from now with proper maintenance. I currently drive a 2006 Vios, my mechanic says it is very simple to service. It has never let me down. Toyota presumably regrets making a quite bullet-proof engine.

 

EV's may sound attractive, and environmentally responsible. Fact is, the saving on running costs take quite a while to make up for the extra capital cost of the vehicle, and the installation of solar panels and ancillary charging equipment.

 

As far as environmentally responsible goes, that will only hold true when the world is 100% renewable or nuclear energy. While it continues to burn fossil fuels to generate electricity, it just transfers the pollution elsewhere. It's estimated in Australia if the entire car fleet was converted to EV's, solely using renewable energy, it would only reduce CO2 pollution by 8%.

 

If the OP wants to maximize his cost benefit from an EV, he should buy one with V2L capability.

[seedy]

As said above - will cost you lots to purchase a new EV, and solar panels to charge it.

Here is a pic of how well Vios are made - imagine what would be the outcome if this was an EV. Very good chance that the fire would have resulted in many vehicles burning to the ground.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1280141-thailand-road-carnage-woman-in-miracle-escape-as-her-car-concertinaed-in-5-vehicle-collision/#comment-17777372

 

[seedy]

If you have your heart set on buying an EV, ensure that you purchase a model which has undergone crash testing by a reputable agency. Many have not, especially in Thailand.

And always good advice to not be a First Adopter. Let the market season for a couple years, see how the vehicles hold up, see how the dealerships handle warranty claims, spare parts availability, etc.

 

[MJCM]

24 minutes ago, seedy said:

As said above - will cost you lots to purchase a new EV, and solar panels to charge it.

Purchase the EV yes a lot of money but so is an ICE. but we can power our house (during the day only) and charge my car with only 10 Solar Panels and an Inverter.

 

Oke I went a bit overboard on the cables etc but you could get that (the Solar install) for way less then 100k (Note #1: This for our Situation, maybe the OP has 4 aircons and a pump for his Swimming Pool and then our setup is totally inadequate) (Note #2: Our setup is WITHOUT Batteries so only charging when the sun shines)

 

If you don't drive lots and lots (like we do) and only short distances (up to 100km return (like we do)) an EV makes totally sense for us. Charge slowly at home and if we need to go further EV chargers are coming on strong.

 

Why does these kind of pictures springs to mind in these kind of discussions? ????

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by MJCM
Edit: Changed some text

[Lacessit]

19 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Purchase the EV yes a lot of money but so is an ICE. but we can power our house (during the day only) and charge my car with only 10 Solar Panels and an Inverter.

 

Oke I went a bit overboard on the cables etc but you could get that (the Solar install) for way less then 100k (Note #1: This for our Situation, maybe the OP has 4 aircons and a pump for his Swimming Pool and then our setup is totally inadequate) (Note #2: Our setup is WITHOUT Batteries so only charging when the sun shines)

 

If you don't drive lots and lots (like we do) and only short distances (up to 100km return (like we do)) an EV makes totally sense for us. Charge slowly at home and if we need to go further EV chargers are coming on strong.

 

Why does these kind of pictures springs to mind in these kind of discussions? ????

 

 

 

I would agree EV's are in their element on short trips.

Range anxiety creeps in on longer hauls. Unlike an ICE, one can't take a jerrycan full of electrons back to the car when it runs out of charge.

The other aspect is the reliability of charging stations. When there are multiple customers attempting to mate the plugs, it's statistically inevitable some will get damaged. There are reports from California 25% of chargers are inoperable.

[MJCM]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

 

Range anxiety creeps in on longer hauls. Unlike an ICE, one can't take a jerrycan full of electrons back to the car when it runs out of charge.

The other aspect is the reliability of charging stations. When there are multiple customers attempting to mate the plugs, it's statistically inevitable some will get damaged. There are reports from California 25% of chargers are inoperable.

This will IMHO change now Tesla has entered the market here. But just see how many Tesla Super chargers there are in any European country and wait till 2024 and see how many there will be in Thailand in a matter of a year.

 

In Europe for example, No problem to go from the top of Germany to the bottom of Spain without having range anxiety.

 

But If they (Tesla) open their charging network to others that remains to be seen.

[MJCM]

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The other aspect is the reliability of charging stations. When there are multiple customers attempting to mate the plugs, it's statistically inevitable some will get damaged. There are reports from California 25% of chargers are inoperable.

What about this to prevent range anxiety? ????

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by MJCM

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, MJCM said:

What about this to prevent range anxiety? ????

 

There was a promotion done by the Polestar EV when it was driven across the Nullarbor Plain in Australia. Accompanied by a truck with a diesel generator on board for recharging.

 

But fear not, the diesel for the truck and generator was environmentally sustainable. It was recycled oil from the fish and chip shops in Perth.

[Peterw42]

I think the whole range anxiety thing will pass, I read about a start-up in the US that does a mod to your EV where they fit a socket in the trunk/boot and they then have a network of portable battery pack sellers/hirers. The idea being if you want extra range or find yourself caught short, you grab a batt pack, put it in the trunk/boot, gives you an extra/backup 100 ks.

You can exchange the batt pack at any reseller for a charged up one, the same as exchanging a gas bottle for the BBQ.

I see a whole generation of EV users that wont charge, just swing by and get a new batt pack.

[Longwood50]

This is my two cents.  Electric cars "may" prove viable but they are not for everyone.  The electric vehicle will cost more up front, more expensive to insure, and you will have fewer people skilled in doing service on it should it require it.  The more a person drives, the more they save on fuel so a person who drives modestly the EV will not save them much.  Many taxis in big cities are going electric because the drive lots of KM per year.

You can charge your vehicle with solar which would add to your fuel savings but that is partially offset by the additional expense you will have to put solar panels and a charging station at your home.  Should you move at the very least you will have the expense of moving the charging station and reinstalling.  I am not familiar with how easy or difficult it is to remove solar panels but if they created damage to the home upon their removal you would have to repair them.

 

Now should you drive long distance at any time, you will probably face having to rent a car given the scarcity of charging stations at present in Thailand.  Finally, like any equipment solar panels and charging equipment are not indestructible.  Just like your home air conditioner, refridgerator, or dishwasher may fail and need service you "may" face that with your charging equipment.  

Eventually your battery in the vehicle will require replacing.  There are stories of batteries not being available or that the cost of the replacement was so high as to not be financially prudent to stick that much into an older used car. 

I recently purchased a Toyota Cross Hybrid.  The cost for the hybrid was about the same as the conventional gasoline model and I get between 17.5 and 19 Kilometers per liter depending on my mix of city versus highway driving.   Worst case if the battery ever gives out, it is still a gasoline powered car.  I don't have to worry about range or charging and my cost for the gasoline since I am a modest driver is less than the additional cost I would have to pay for an EV.

Now one of the biggest unknowns with EV's is resale value.  Right now they are fairly high because used cars in general are scarce and fuel prices historically high.  It is my "guess" that EV's will depreciate more than conventional gas vehicles.  As a car approaches 150,000 KM with a used gas car there is no consideration of a big expense to replace the engine.  However there is an immediate consideration on an EV of the necessity of replacing the batteries. 

Of course any assessment is made based on a snapshot in time.  The lower the gas price the less you save on electricity.  Unless you use solar the higher the electric cost the less you save with an EV.  And the biggest unknown is how much depreciation you will suffer.  You paid more for the car to begin with, and if you then get a lower percentage of it back when you sell, that negates any "savings". 

[seedy]

1 hour ago, MJCM said:

Purchase the EV yes a lot of money but so is an ICE.

But he has already purchased the Vios - so no more outlay except for fuel and maintenance.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

I think the whole range anxiety thing will pass, I read about a start-up in the US that does a mod to your EV where they fit a socket in the trunk/boot and they then have a network of portable battery pack sellers/hirers. The idea being if you want extra range or find yourself caught short, you grab a batt pack, put it in the trunk/boot, gives you an extra/backup 100 ks.

You can exchange the batt pack at any reseller for a charged up one, the same as exchanging a gas bottle for the BBQ.

I see a whole generation of EV users that wont charge, just swing by and get a new batt pack.

All technologies take time to get the bugs and deficiencies worked out of them, EV's are no exception. Think of how many updates of Windows there are, and that doesn't even have any moving parts.

 

I'd consider an EV at the fourth or fifth generation, early days yet.

 

 

[MJCM]

1 hour ago, seedy said:

But he has already purchased the Vios - so no more outlay except for fuel and maintenance.

so the questions of the OP after this remark
 

Quote

When i have o replace it, i would like o consider Electric, but do not know if itwould suit me.

Are totally irrelevant?

 

So your advice to the OP is, don’t buy an EV and don’t go with solar and stay with your Vios for as long as possible?

[MJCM]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I'd consider an EV at the fourth or fifth generation, early days yet

I guess some other members will only start considering an EV when there are as many chargers as there are petrol stations 

[KhunLA]

A few thoughts ...

Solar is good idea, but, do you own the house and not going any where in the next 10ish years ?

 

If you plan on buying a new car next couple years anyway, then EV would be a good choice.   Buy in prices aren't much higher than top end popular sedans made in Thailand.

 

Example:  MG EP is ฿771k, new top end Vios is ฿789k.  Gov't incentives for EVs expire late 2023, I think.  That's quite an incentive to buy before they do expire.

 

We picked up the MG ZS EV, for ฿949, and insurance value now if totaled, is ฿960k, due to the govt incentives we received.  Instead of losing 25% when driven off the lot, we gained a few ????

 

If you keep your present Vios for few more years, 3-5 yrs, then it won't be worth much at all.

 

Operating cost is substantially less with an EV.  MG estimates over 8 yrs, maintenance cost is about ฿16.2k.  Having the ICE version of the ZS, cost shy of ฿10k in just 2 yrs/40k kms, and just oil changes & filters, w/ free labor ????

 

Petrol vs charging at home, w/PEA, at full rate/฿5 per kW, over the 8 yr battery warranty / 180k kms ... petrol from ฿600k @ ฿35 per Liter.  EV about ฿112k, if paying PEA @ ฿5. 

T.O.U. Meter would cut that about half.

 

Those number are exact cost, comparing my MG ZS ICE vs MG ZS EV.  Actually I get more kms per charge than I calculating, when doing.  For us, electric is free, as we already had solar at the house, and plenty extra for the EV.  

 

With the MG EP or ZS EV, 200 kms shouldn't be any problem doing 90 kph, as we are getting more, and still have a 20% battery reserve.  First test run, we drove 240 km, and car stated we had another 60 kms to go, before draining the battery, which you never want to do. 

 

That was in 'normal' mode, and we get more kms per charge now, in 'eco' mode.  No noticeable difference in performance.  Driving < 60 kph locally & 90 kph on highway.

 

The cost analysis I did, at the end of 8 yrs, with buy in cost, no down payment or trade in, Cost to buy-in & operate, w/ both cars costing new - ฿771k:

ICE was ฿1.500,000 

EV was ฿900,000

 

Continuing after 8 yrs, for another 8 yrs:

ICE ... fuel & maintenance ... ฿740K

EV ... electric & maintenance... ฿129k

 

Considering petrol & electric remains the same prices;

฿35 per liter / ฿5 per kW, if oil goes up, so will electric.

 

If staying in your house, then solar is an excellent investment for house & EV.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by KhunLA

[In the jungle]

3 hours ago, seedy said:

As said above - will cost you lots to purchase a new EV, and solar panels to charge it.

Here is a pic of how well Vios are made - imagine what would be the outcome if this was an EV. Very good chance that the fire would have resulted in many vehicles burning to the ground.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1280141-thailand-road-carnage-woman-in-miracle-escape-as-her-car-concertinaed-in-5-vehicle-collision/#comment-17777372

 

Note to self:

 

Don't sit in the back seat of a Vios.

[MJCM]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Think of how many updates of Windows there are, and that doesn't even have any moving parts.

 

 

i for one wouldn’t drive a Car with a MS OS, there you are driving leisurely on the motorway and then suddenly a BSOD (Blue screen of Death) out of nowhere 

[talahtnut]

Switzerland mulling a ban on EVs.

As a smug owner of a EV 20 years ago in UK

I had to carry a small generator in the back.

Steep hills kills 'em.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

A few thoughts ...

Solar is good idea, but, do you own the house and not going any where in the next 10ish years ?

 

If you plan on buying a new car next couple years anyway, then EV would be a good choice.   Buy in prices aren't much higher than top end popular sedans made in Thailand.

 

Example:  MG EP is ฿771k, new top end Vios is ฿789k.  Gov't incentives for EVs expire late 2023, I think.  That's quite an incentive to buy before they do expire.

 

We picked up the MG ZS EV, for ฿949, and insurance value now if totaled, is ฿960k, due to the govt incentives we received.  Instead of losing 25% when driven off the lot, we gained a few ????

 

If you keep your present Vios for few more years, 3-5 yrs, then it won't be worth much at all.

 

Operating cost is substantially less with an EV.  MG estimates over 8 yrs, maintenance cost is about ฿16.2k.  Having the ICE version of the ZS, cost shy of ฿10k in just 2 yrs/40k kms, and just oil changes & filters, w/ free labor ????

 

Petrol vs charging at home, w/PEA, at full rate/฿5 per kW, over the 8 yr battery warranty / 180k kms ... petrol from ฿600k @ ฿35 per Liter.  EV about ฿112k, if paying PEA @ ฿5. 

T.O.U. Meter would cut that about half.

 

Those number are exact cost, comparing my MG ZS ICE vs MG ZS EV.  Actually I get more kms per charge than I calculating, when doing.  For us, electric is free, as we already had solar at the house, and plenty extra for the EV.  

 

With the MG EP or ZS EV, 200 kms shouldn't be any problem doing 90 kph, as we are getting more, and still have a 20% battery reserve.  First test run, we drove 240 km, and car stated we had another 60 kms to go, before draining the battery, which you never want to do. 

 

That was in 'normal' mode, and we get more kms per charge now, in 'eco' mode.  No noticeable difference in performance.  Driving < 60 kph locally & 90 kph on highway.

 

The cost analysis I did, at the end of 8 yrs, with buy in cost, no down payment or trade in, Cost to buy-in & operate, w/ both cars costing new - ฿771k:

ICE was ฿1.500,000 

EV was ฿900,000

 

Continuing after 8 yrs, for another 8 yrs:

ICE ... fuel & maintenance ... ฿740K

EV ... electric & maintenance... ฿129k

 

Considering petrol & electric remains the same prices;

฿35 per liter / ฿5 per kW, if oil goes up, so will electric.

 

If staying in your house, then solar is an excellent investment for house & EV.

 

Nobody knows what the depreciation on an EV is going to be, or whether Chinese manufacturers and their dealerships here are going to be throwing EV buyers under a bus after vehicles are out of warranty. Then there is also the question of premature battery failure, it's a much more complex and expensive operation than replacing the engine of an ICE.

 

I bought my 2006 Vios for 230,000 baht 8 years ago, with 83,000 km on the odometer. It's now racked up another 100,000 km, without missing a beat. I spent another 20,000 baht getting it into the condition I wanted. If I was to sell it tomorrow ( I won't ) I would get about 90,000 baht for it.

 

Doing the sums, the depreciation on my Vios has been about 20,000 baht/year. Permit me to doubt the depreciation on your EV over 8 years will be within a bull's roar of that figure, it will be much worse.

 

The OP has had the bulk of the depreciation on his Vios already. While it's true the car won't be worth much in another 5 years, equally it is bad advice to be selling now for the chance to become another lab rat. Financially, it would be a poor decision.

 

[KhunLA]

I feel safer in my EV vs ICE version of our SUV, as pointed out in the article below.  Yet to see an EV on fire, or many reports of.

 

ICE s are in the news quite often, in flames, and I've seen my share on the road. 

 

Here's a Tesla, after a horrific crash  ...

... SPLIT IN HALF ...

Didn't catch on fire, didn't blow up, didn't even compromise the battery pack.

 

"The driver of the Model X walked away with a minor injury to his leg while the occupants of the other vehicle were brought to nearby hospitals for treatment"

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-splits-half-crash-nissan-gt-r-runs-red-light/

[KhunLA]

I hope the OP listens to current EV owners, instead of the BS coming from anti-EV'ers.

[malathione]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I hope the OP listens to current EV owners, instead of the BS coming from anti-EV'ers.

It isn't a matter of current owners or not, it is more a matter of intended use. Take your EV to Tak>Umphang>Mae Sariang and do a bit of sightseeing and head to Khun Yuam and tell us how you got along. Take a run up in the provinces and don't hit the major cities and it is the same problem; charging stations are only available in the provincial capitals. Yes, they're fine for running around in the city and for going city to city along the main highways (as long as you don't mind lengthy "refueling" stops). Anything else and they're far too compromised in their (and the infrastucture's) present state.

 

That's not to say that the OP will not get along fine with an EV; their usage seems to fit the profile well. As for cost effectiveness, that's open to debate upon considering depreciation.

 

For the record, I'm not anti-EV. I'm just pro-convenience (for my usage).

[motdaeng]

10 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Switzerland mulling a ban on EVs. ...

 ... there will be of course no ban on ev cars in switzerland ... !!!

 

escalation level 3 as one of many possible measures:

“The private use of electric cars is only permitted for absolutely necessary journeys (e.g. professional practice,

shopping, visiting the doctor, attending religious events, attending court appointments),” the draft paper said ...

 

 

https://urbantransportnews.com/news/is-switzerland-really-banning-use-of-electric-vehicles-in-the-country-truth-unveiled

[seedy]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I hope the OP listens to current EV owners, instead of the BS coming from anti-EV'ers.

So people who do not share your ideas are full of BS ?

Gotta laugh !!!

And - as I have said before - I am NOT anti anything. Just bringing my opinion to the discussion, without resorting to name calling, denigration of the opinions of others, and a depth of Arrogance where one persons view is so much more valued than that of another.

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, malathione said:

For the record, I'm not anti-EV. I'm just pro-convenience (for my usage).

this has been written many times, the ev car
is not for everyone.  ???? 

[malathione]

1 minute ago, motdaeng said:

this has been written many times, the ev car
is not for everyone.  ???? 

Not yet but hopefully that will be rectified in the not too distant future????

[JBChiangRai]

We have 2 EV's with a 3rd on order.

 

A year ago maybe you would have range anxiety, not today, you are never further than 150km from an MG DC SuperCharger and if you add in all the vendors, a lot less than that.

 

Certainly on the Superhighway they are every 10-50km approx.

 

It's not just that they are cheaper to run over an extended period, it's the quality of the drive.  NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) is what causes fatigue on long journeys, EV's don't have any of either.

 

Regardless of whether you buy an EV, a Grid-Tied solar system is a no-brainer for anyone intending to spend 3 years or more in their current property.

Edited December 11, 2022 by JBChiangRai
Spellong