What If We Changed Countries.

[zappa]

What do you think would happen if you took the population of Britain or any Western country with an equivelant population to Thailand, and changed places. (put all the Thais in the west and vise versa) leaving only the present infra structure for the transposed peoples to cope with? Would the western structures deteriorate, the Thai improve. If you did this to the UK would Clacton become the new Pattaya,(where would the Essex girls go). Would Germany announce a public holiday, with weekend trips to the UK?

Just curious.

[Spee]

Would the western structures deteriorate, the Thai improve.

Just my own wrong opinion but ....

You can already see answers to your questions in places like Thailand, the US, the UK, France, etc.

The answer is some good things happen and some bad things happen.

- Many Thai, Viet, Cambodian, and others have immigrated to the west and made very good lives for themselves and made America and other places better for it.

- On the other hand, look at places like California where there has been a massive flooding of legal and illegal immigration from the south. A lot of good has come from it, but also a lot of bad.

- Similarly in places like western Europe, where there have been large influxes of people from the middle east and western Asia. Many of the these people have found happier lives and helped their new countries. Many of them came for the sole purpose of spreading the current reign of terror.

- Same thing in Thailand, where many farangs have immigrated, bringing in money, stability, purchasing power and being loyal and faithful spouses. Not saying that everyone who goes there is perfect, but I would have to believe that the majority of people who immigrate there make a positive impact to the society.

More thoughts? Opinions?

[zappa]

I was actually thinking of moving the entire populations (hypotheticlly)sorry about the spelling. personally I think if you bought the pop. of the UK to LOS the whole country would probably go to pot, literally.

[possom]

spee, what are you on !!! ""many of them came for the sole purpose of spreading the current reign of terror""" europe has experienced terrorism for many DECADES unnoticed and often supported by americans. suddenly many hard working immigrants from the middle east (many who have been here now for generations ) are here to spread terror . how long did you live in europe to make these assesments ??????? or are you just another american with your head up your arse ???

[Spee]

"many of them came for the sole purpose of spreading the current reign of terror""" europe has experienced terrorism for many DECADES unnoticed and often supported by americans

Getting OT but ...

... let me rephrase ... how about "some" instead of "many?"

Of course I'm aware that terrorism in Europe has been around for decades. I'm old enough to remember Munich, the Berlin disco bombing, etc.

And from history I know about other terror Hitler and the jewish genocide, the Turk Armenian genocide, etc. I don't think anyone can classify these sorts of things as going "unnoticed."

Similarly, I was not trying to paint all middle eastern immigrants in Europe as bad people. I'm sure the vast majority want what we all want, which is a decent job and a better life.

However, the fact remains that major European cities (and probably US cities as well) are still gathering spots for those who wish to reign terror on those with western ideals and democracies.

You make a claim that terrorism in Europe was or is often supported by the US. Can you substantiate that claim?

Again sorry for getting so far OT ....

[possom]

yes , NORAID , fundraising organisation for the IRA, based in the states for many years unchallenged . i would like to think that this has now been stopped in the current climate .

[andyinkat]

Spee,

If only you could hear yourself as the rest of the world hears you

Are you one of those Americans who is genuinely perplexed as to why so many people around the world hate you, especially after the universal wave of sympathy post 9/11? Or are so you insular that you actually have no idea how you are perceived when you maintain this attitude.

I write by the way as a European of Asian Muslim parentage. Whenever I travel I am suspected of being the very person you accuse me of - indeed I was subjected to so many security checks when I applied for a ticket to visit the US that in the end I told them where to stick it.

What really depresses me is that the prejudice you demonstrate indicates to me that Al Qaeda are winning the war. One terrorist strike, killing in cold blood a fraction of the civilians slaughtered by Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq has succeeded in creating such a climate of fear and suspicion that huge swathes of the world who happen to be peaceful law-abiding Muslims are being driven to sometimes volatile anti-American sentiments.

... let me rephrase ... how about "some" instead of "many?"

Uh huh. There are 'some' CIA operatives spreading hatred in some foreign parts. There are 'some' badly trained grunts beating up Iraqi civilians in Iraq. So?You make a claim that terrorism in Europe was or is often supported by the US. Can you substantiate that claim?

Noraid, financing the IRA. I'm not suggesting the US government was involved, but your sweeping statement about "Many of them came for the sole purpose of spreading the current reign of terror" is directed at ordinary civilians.

Okay, to the topic: my opinion is that the majority of Thais would be bloody miserable. They might thrive in Mediterranean countries or Florida where the climate is benign but Northern Europe, Northern US in the winter? Wouldn't be Land of Smiles. I used to work in Clacton by the way (as a bingo caller); the thought of exchanging all those Essex dogs for charming feminine Thai lasses brings a chuckle to my face.

[Spee]

yes , NORAID , fundraising organisation for the IRA, based in the states for many years unchallenged . i would like to think that this has now been stopped in the current climate .

While I would believe for a second that this sort of activity has been stopped, current climate or not, I do believe that classifying it as being supported by the US government is not accurate. That's the same as saying that terrorism is supported by the EU because there may be (or actually are) active fundraising campaigns for terrorists in Europe.

[possom]

SPEE , can you read ?? i said NORAID ,supported by americans , ( i dont mention the government) however the government did nothing to stop its activities . this was an american organisation , supporting terror . i am sure the british government would have made complaints over the years about this ,however this was pre sept 11. it was all so different back then .

[ambassador]

Where would the Essex girls go? Just curious.

They would go go to the bars of course.

(After all the poles had been strengthened)

[Spee]

If only you could hear yourself as the rest of the world hears you

Andy,

Believe me, I know how the rest of the world "hears me." I've worked all over the world in the past seven years, including the US, the middle east, eastern and western Europe, and Asia.

Surely not everyone agreed with me regarding the American lifestyle or political decisions. But neither were they ready to kill me or blow up a building because we held differing views.

From what I've seen, your opinion is that of a small albeit vocal minority at best, if not entirely distorted from reality at worst.

Then Andy wrote further:

"Are you one of those Americans who is genuinely perplexed as to why so many people around the world hate you"

By "you" I' assuming you mean the USA as a whole. Personally, I could never figure out the value of the hate emotion, and it is certainly not something that my country espouses. There is absolutely nothing productive that comes from it. Yet you and others with similar feelings seem to hold it very close. Why is that?

Are we hated because we have the freedom to do what we want, seek out a style of life that makes us happy, and move around and spend the fruits of our labors freely? Is that hatred rising out of jealousy, meanness, or something else??

"Whenever I travel I am suspected of being the very person you accuse me of - indeed I was subjected to so many security checks when I applied for a ticket to visit the US that in the end I told them where to stick it."

"I" haven't accused you of being anything, Andy. Why are you so sensitive on this topic? I have traveled around the world via many international terminals in the last three weeks. I was selected for detailed personal search and complete baggage search in several locations, with the most severe and extensive on the return leg to my own home country. Did I care? Sure, I was a bit pissed off for reasons of personal privacy. But on the other hand, I had nothing to hide. In today's world, if one wants to fly, then one should expect just about anything when it comes to searches.

"What really depresses me" ..... blah .... blah .... blah

Andy, I think you went off the deep end with that one paragraph diatribe. Again I ask, is your depression or hatred rising from jealousy or something else?

"There are 'some' badly trained grunts beating up Iraqi civilians in Iraq. So?"

But you are overlooking one very important thing. These people made mistakes and are going to be punished through due process of law, something that was unheard of under the former regime. Furthermore, under the further regime, these kinds of practices were mandated if not rewarded, and surely not meted out for prosecution. Also, as far as beating up Iraqi citizens goes, you turn a blind eye to everything that happened prior. I have friends who are Iraqi Caldean Christians. Believe me, I have heard their stories about how their people were persecuted by the former regime under their tribal, dictatorial rule.

So look Andy, do yourself a favor. Lighten up on the hate speech and the apparent jealously for the western lifestyle. It ain't worth it. Life is too short. Start taking some happy pills and enjoy your life, instead of hating "me" for enjoying "mine."

[possom]

spee YOU SAY """ there are some badly trained grunts beating up iraqi civilians in iraq . so ?? """" that statement says it all about the attitude of some americans. and you wonder why the world thinks you have an ignorant , stupid and arrogant regime ..

[andyinkat]

Spee - just a brief corrective about factual details concerning myself.

I am British; I spent 40 years of my life accepting the fruits of the western lifestyle. My views do not stem from jealousy. They do in part stem from the awareness that my western benefits to an extent were at the expense of the quality of life of people in many other parts of the world.

Are we hated because we have the freedom to do what we want, seek out a style of life that makes us happy, and move around and spend the fruits of our labors freely? Is that hatred rising out of jealousy, meanness, or something else??

To overstate the case for dramatic effect, you are only free because you deny that freedom to others.

So I chose to forego the benefits of a well paid job, pension, mod cons and relocate to Asia where I live and work amongst the poorer sections of global society.

Now I'll refrain from entering into further debate with you as I can see that you are not open to listening to the perspectives of people whose experience differs from your own narrow and privileged world.

[andyinkat]

Life is too short. Start taking some happy pills and enjoy your life

I do enjoy my life, immensely since I left the west. You see what your quote above says to me, in the context of the rest of your writings here, is "Just think about yourself, don't give a thought to the less fortunate, blind yourself to the actions of government, finance houses and multi-national corporations while you reap the material benefits."

That never brought me happiness. No wonder you use the language of 'pills' - very telling on a sub-conscious level. My happiness comes through actively helping the poor and persecuted, but I accept I'm in a minority here.

[Spee]

spee YOU SAY """ there are some badly trained grunts beating up iraqi civilians in iraq . so ?? """" t

Methinks if you would have read more carefully, then you would have seen that I was quoting Andy.

[Spee]

To overstate the case for dramatic effect .......

Andy rambled on some more about ....

"To overstate the case for dramatic effect, you are only free because you deny that freedom to others."

If helping to defeat Tojo and Hitler defines a denial of freedom, then I'll gladly accept that definition over any other.

If knocking over Saddam to help break up a terrorist pipeline ranging from Syria to Afghanistan, while freeing the Iraqi people, defines a denial of freedom, then I'll gladly accept that definition as well.

"So I chose to forego the benefits of a well paid job, pension, mod cons and relocate to Asia where I live and work amongst the poorer sections of global society."

The point is that from the first part of your life, you had the choice and the freedom to do so. Not everything in life revolves around money, pension and benefits. But free choice and freedom are what defines life.

"Now I'll refrain from entering into further debate with you as I can see that you are not open to listening to the perspectives of people whose experience differs from your own narrow and privileged world."

Om the contrary, I am extremely open to listening, though I may also respond. That is partly why this forum exists and why I am so fortunate to be a part of it.

As for accepting people whose experience may differ from my own, you are way off your rocker. I'm going to marry a wonderful girl from Thailand whose life and experiences have been polar opposites from mine.

I grew up in a middle class family and she grew up dirt poor. Doesn't matter to me or to her. I've accepted her family as if they are my own, and will care for them in the same manner. They have done the same to me and I am grateful for it. This is one of the greatest things to have happened in my life.

[zappa]

Ambassador, thanks for taking this posting as seriously as it was intended. Why is it all posts on this site seem to end up either raging against "terrorists" they're not a new thing and will be with us for many years to come, or a slagging match about which nationality is more inane(insane) than the other. Can't we just have a little fun with one of these topics now and again.

[Spee]

I do enjoy my life, immensely since I left the west. You see what your quote above says to me, in the context of the rest of your writings here, is "Just think about yourself, don't give a thought to the less fortunate, blind yourself to the actions of government, finance houses and multi-national corporations while you reap the material benefits."

I'm happy for you that you are happy in the life you have chosen. As for the rest of your statement, I think you're off the deep end. You have no idea what I may or may not have done with charity in my life. Furthermore, you seem to think that everything government, finance houses and multi-national corporations do is bad for humanity. They're surely not perfect, but where would the world be without them?

Andy said ...

"That never brought me happiness. No wonder you use the language of 'pills' - very telling on a sub-conscious level."

Just a phrase, Andy, just a phrase ... so go easy on the psycho-babble.

"My happiness comes through actively helping the poor and persecuted, but I accept I'm in a minority here."

People like you have always been in the minority, not that it is necessarily bad or good. That is just reflective throughout history. Doesn't mean that what you and others like you are doing isn't honorable, because it almost surely is. Doesn't mean me and others like me are bad people either, just because we choose another lifestyle.

[possom]

i stand corrected . however i still disagree with you on most points ,regarding american policy . and i hope americans worldwide can see the hatred(at worst )and dismay (at least ) this government of yours is causing because of its unilateral and one sided foreign policy . the continuation of which can not be good for world stability . past policies including the support of sadam hussein and the arming of osama bin laden to suit american needs "at the time" merely enforce the impression of america as an imperial power ,changing policy whenever it suits itself . only the american people can change this opinion . i do not hate the american people ,however ,it gets harder the longer this administration stays in power , after all they put it there . i hope they have more sense this year .

[Spee]

Can't we just have a little fun with one of these topics now and again.

I apologize for going so far off topic with the original intent of your post, though that is why posts turn into threads. That is the nature of a discussion forum, right?

[Spee]

enforce the impression of america as an imperial power

You should double-check the definitions of your worlds. If American were an imperial power, the we would have kept our share of Germany like the Soviet Union, instead of giving it back to the German people. The same thing goes for Japan, Afghanistan, Iraq ... and so on.

America has not shown a desire to expand for many decades. In fact many other territories have been given back to the original countries (e.g., Panama Canal, Okinawa, etc.).

Put another way, if being imperialist means trying to help the proliferation of democracy and freedom, then I'll take that definition every day.

Want to try again ???

[zappa]

No apologies necessary. Just a lot of these threads all end up in the same place. Is that what's refered to as the tapestry of life

[andyinkat]

QUOTE (possom @ Mon 2004-07-05, 19:25:22)

enforce the impression of america as an imperial power 

You should double-check the definitions of your worlds.

Possum is referring to economic and financial imperialism.

Anyway, let me just refer you to America's greatest and bravest intellect (IMO of course), Noam Chomsky, and leave it at that.

Sorry Zap - let's try again. Sun-kissed tropical beaches vs. drizzly Yorkshire moors.

Sulty smiling Thai goddess vs. fat-arsed pasty burger-guzzlers.

(We're supposed to be non-PC right?!)

Come to think of it Zappa, I'd be interested in thinking through what it would be like if you just exchanged all the MEN! Heyyyy..

[Dutchy2]

What do you think would happen if you took the population of Britain or any Western country with an equivelant population to Thailand, and changed places. (put all the Thais in the west and vise versa) leaving only the present infra structure for the transposed peoples to cope with? Would the western structures deteriorate, the Thai improve. If you did this to the UK would Clacton become the new Pattaya,(where would the Essex girls go). Would Germany announce a public holiday, with weekend trips to the UK?

Just curious.

I actually thought about something similar quite often, Thailand would be the perfect place to be with a population that adheres to democratic and intelligent standards. Imagine how Thailand would be if its population would have at least a world average IQ... people would apply logic to their reasoning.. fairness would be introduced... Justice would get a different meaning, people would actually be punished for their crimes instead of being made Prime Minister...

I guess I'm just dreaming...

Dutchy

[Spee]

Possum is referring to economic and financial imperialism.

So Germany and Japan are worse off now than they were before WW2 ??

Frankly I'm sick and tired of all of the ranting and raving about how having money or economic power is such a bad thing. Money can't buy happiness. But poverty can't either.

I think it is safe to say that every person in the world wants a solid roof over their head (in whatever form), a decent job (in whatever form), and just a bit more money (in whatever form) than it takes to have a home and feed/clothe/educate a family.

I think it is safe to say that in all of history, America and American allies have done more to try to acheive this goal, than the rest of the world combined.

[stroll]

I think it is safe to say that every person in the world wants a solid roof over their head (in whatever form), a decent job (in whatever form), and just a bit more money (in whatever form) than it takes to have a home and feed/clothe/educate a family.

You are probably right, but please allow others to decide what is important for them and let them achieve it in their own way.

Back on topic, I am still waiting for the invention of 'space travel suits', so I could be in different countries all the time, i.e. after a 'stroll' along Yorkshire moors and a leisurely pint of Sam Smiths' with me mates after, back to central Bangkok in the evening, and a breakfast in rural nothern Thailand with the in-laws.

[Jangot]

Gee you guys..

Zappa posed a legitimate and interesting hypothesis - and it got turned into a USA vs Europe bash fest.

Back on topic,

You cannot quote the success or otherwise of small numbers of emigrees in either direction as those individuals are motivated differently from the general populace.

I believe populations swapping countries would be like people swapping shoes. Both would be a bad fit resulting in sore feet and blisters.

The majority of any population is a result of its environment and cultural influence. Transplanted into an alien environment (both directions) both populations would atrophy and decay. (Not thailand become 1st world and Europe become 3rd, as I suspect many would want to believe).

Before we get buried under responses about "development" of North America, Australia, etc by Europeans, lets not forget those situations do nor fit Zappa's hypothesis, in that the indiginous populations remained in place (until "reduced").

IMHO.

[konangrit]

Imagine how Thailand would be if its population would have at least a world average IQ...

Is there such a thing as a world average IQ and if so do you have a link to where different nationalities come on it?

Back to the original post, do the populations take their belongings with them? Will we have tuk tuks in London and hackney cabs in Bangkok, Flip flops in Birmingham and wellingtons in Samui and most importantly money. I know one thing, the stock market would collapse in London whilst the SET would probably make significant gains with all the money flooding out of Britain and into Thailand.

[stroll]

Imagine how Thailand would be if its population would have at least a world average IQ...

Is there such a thing as a world average IQ and if so do you have a link to where different nationalities come on it?

Dutchy2's comments are not serious, he is just trying to give an example of the type of post the original dutchy was suspended for.

[TizMe]

Imagine how Thailand would be if its population would have at least a world average IQ...

Is there such a thing as a world average IQ and if so do you have a link to where different nationalities come on it?

Dutchy2's comments are not serious, he is just trying to give an example of the type of post the original dutchy was suspended for.

Well there are about 100 countries with below average IQ. But Dutchy, how can you be sure that England isn't one of them.