Recovery from alcoholism as an agnostic in AA

[Andy F]

Dear friends,

 

My name is Andy and I am an expat living in Thailand. 

 

I am also an alcoholic in recovery. I am sober today only with the ongoing love, help and support of Alcoholics Anonymous. In the AA program it is regarded as vital that if alcoholics are to be successful in their recovery, they should turn their will and lives over to the guidance of a higher power. This is usually referred to as the care of God ‘as we understood him’.

I am however an agnostic. In AA this has sometimes been an enormous challenge. For this reason, I have published a book entitled “The Twelve Steps for Agnostics”. The book is available on Amazon worldwide

 

The purpose of my website is to tell you about the book and my successful journey towards recovery as an agnostic in AA.

https://aaforagnostics.com/

[Regyai]

I'll drink to that

[swissman53]

I'm an AA too and my higher power are the AA members. There is enough literature around. No need to get

more from a bloke who thinks that he has the big wisdom about AA!

[Neeranam]

Bill Wilson said "Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not."

So basically, in my understanding, this means if you never lost the power of choosing to drink or not, you can get by without a higher power. If you lost the power of choice, there is only a spiritual way out.

He also said "For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead"

[Neeranam]

12 hours ago, still kicking said:

You become a monk now?

Are you an alcoholic?

[still kicking]

28 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you an alcoholic?

No but most monks are

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, still kicking said:

No but most monks are

What a stupid thing to say. If you are not interested in stopping drinking, find a new place to troll. 

[george]

Unnecessary comments removed.

[Andy F]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:09 PM, swissman53 said:

I'm an AA too and my higher power are the AA members. There is enough literature around. No need to get

more from a bloke who thinks that he has the big wisdom about AA!

For the record,  I dont have any more wisdom about AA then anyone else.. Im just an agnostic alcoholic who had to find a way of working the steps without being concderned about the "God" word

 

With regard to there being enough literature in AA for atheists, agnostics and freethinkers, this is just not the case. How many alcoholics have left AA or have never come to AA in the first place because they see AA as somekind of religious cult. The first bit of conference approved literature was only recently published in AA, Its an AA pamphlet called 'The "God" word.

Here it is:

https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf

[Andy F]

17 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Bill Wilson said "Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not."

So basically, in my understanding, this means if you never lost the power of choosing to drink or not, you can get by without a higher power. If you lost the power of choice, there is only a spiritual way out.

He also said "For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead"

If you are interested, "The twelve steps for agnostics" is all about finding a non-God centered spiritual awakening. 

 

https://aaforagnostics.com/

[Andy F]

8 minutes ago, Andy F said:

For the record,  I dont have any more wisdom about AA then anyone else.. Im just an agnostic alcoholic who had to find a way of working the steps without being concderned about the "God" word

 

With regard to there being enough literature in AA for atheists, agnostics and freethinkers, this is just not the case. How many alcoholics have left AA or have never come to AA in the first place because they see AA as somekind of religious cult. The first bit of conference approved literature was only recently published in AA, Its an AA pamphlet called 'The "God" word.

Here it is:

https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf

It was first published by AA in 2018. Up until that time, AA was very conservative in its attitude to the spirituality of the program. The general position was that recovery was from alcoholism was only truly accesible to those that believe in a monotheistic God. Thankfully, since 2018 with the publication of 'The "God" word pamphlet, AA is changing and becoming more "agnostic friendly"

[swissman53]

I just would read Step 3 (as I understand my higher power)  and maybe get a bit more into the 12 Traditions.

[likerdup1]

To much to say about his. I don't believe we need anymore clever books stating that the AA program can be adjusted or done by side stepping the most important part. A willingness to seek a higher power.

There are too many alcoholics that cannot stay sober without spiritual help brought about by seeking the help of a Higher Power.  That higher power cannot be human power according to the original AA text.

Edited January 16, 2023 by likerdup1

[Andy F]

11 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Exactly. Recovery the AA way without even willingness to believe that a Higher Power exists cannot be achieved because AA's solution as stated by Dr. Carl Jung in the chapter "there is a solution" is to get a spiritual awakening or God consciousness. The sad thing is that there are many real alcoholics who desperately need knowledge and help of the AA 12 step program as designed! Folks like the OP who think they are clever and have been able to stay sober by just getting "support" in the fellowship and then adjusting the program to suite themselves are KILLING real alcoholics by spreading these sophomoric ideas. They are doing a big disservice to real alcoholics who cannot stay sober without spiritual help!

A spiritual awakening is by no means dependant on a God awakening. Jim Burwell was AA's first atheist. He convinced Bill to add the clauses "as we understand him" in steps 3 and 11. He was decades sober in AA before he passed away. He founded AA on the west coast in San Diego. Carl Jung places the emphasis on the "vital spiritual experience" Never once did he tell Roland H that he had to believe in God. His message to Roland was the vital spiritual experience. You are entitled to believe what you believe just like tradition 3 tells us that any alcoholic is a member of AA if he so declares. This is irrespective of what he believes. AA is open to all so let's remember AA's well used slogan "Live and let live"

[likerdup1]

2 minutes ago, Andy F said:

A spiritual awakening is by no means dependant on a God awakening. Jim Burwell was AA's first atheist. He convinced Bill to add the clauses "as we understand him" in steps 3 and 11. He was decades sober in AA before he passed away. He founded AA on the west coast in San Diego. Carl Jung places the emphasis on the "vital spiritual experience" Never once did he tell Roland H that he had to believe in God. His message to Roland was the vital spiritual experience. You are entitled to believe what you believe just like tradition 3 tells us that any alcoholic is a member of AA if he so declares. This is irrespective of what he believes. AA is open to all so let's remember AA's well used slogan "Live and let live"

You can sight all the justifications you want to support your book. The basic text and the `12 and 12 are pretty clear. I don't have time to teach you the real AA program. I'm fairly certain you have never taken the effort to learn it or try it anyway, nor do you want to.

 

I find your experience of claiming to be a hardcore alcoholic and staying abstinent by attending AA meetings for 25 years not too believable. If it's true you are a rare exception. I know quite a few hard drinkers that showed up to the AA fellowship, chose not to drink and then used the fellowship meetings as a social outlet. They are not alcoholics. Their experience does not help real alcoholics.

 

I think many people don't understand that the AA fellowship is just the meetings. AA meetings do not bring about recovery from alcoholism.  The program of AA is the 12 steps.

 

I have been sober around 30 years. I do not know any real alcoholics as defined in the AA basic text who have been able to stay sober for 25 years just by going to meetings. Most real alcoholics who show up to AA as badly mangled as you say you were cannot get recovery unless they do the `12 steps as designed.

Good luck in selling your book.

[Andy F]

8 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

You can sight all the justifications you want to support your book. The basic text and the `12 and 12 are pretty clear. I don't have time to teach you the real AA program. I'm fairly certain you have never taken the effort to learn it or try it anyway, nor do you want to.

 

I find your experience of claiming to be a hardcore alcoholic and staying abstinent by attending AA meetings for 25 years not too believable. If it's true you are a rare exception. I know quite a few hard drinkers that showed up to the AA fellowship, chose not to drink and then used the fellowship meetings as a social outlet. They are not alcoholics. Their experience does not help real alcoholics.

 

I think many people don't understand that the AA fellowship is just the meetings. AA meetings do not bring about recovery from alcoholism.  The program of AA is the 12 steps.

 

I have been sober around 30 years. I do not know any real alcoholics as defined in the AA basic text who have been able to stay sober for 25 years just by going to meetings. Most real alcoholics who show up to AA as badly mangled as you say you were cannot get recovery unless they do the `12 steps as designed.

Good luck in selling your book.

I have been through the steps many times as an agnostic. They guided me towards a non-God centered spiritual awakening. Are you saying that the program won't work for millions of Buddhists who do not believe in God? You gave your self the somewhat arrogant permission to call me sophomoric. Are you sure that it's not you who is sophomoric, or at the very least bigoted?

 

[likerdup1]

On reading my last post I see it wasn't very kind. Forgive me. No need for me to sling mud and call names.

 

I'm very passionate about AA . The 12 step program and good sponsorship have given me a life I could not have ever imagined I would have. I consider myself a student and enthusiast of the AA basic text (The Big Book) and Twelve and Twelve book. I've helped many alcoholics recover from alcoholism by following the specific instructions in those two books.

 

While the AA fellowship is open to all people whatever their beliefs, convictions, race, creed, color, sexual orientation etc. The program itself is laid out very specifically in the texts. The chapter "We Agnostics" is designed to help those who consider themselves agnostic or atheist at least be open minded to the existence of a God, Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe or what have you. In this way they can embark on the spiritual journey that is the 12 step spiritual program of AA.

 

I apologize for my heavy language. My passion about the program sometimes gets the best of me and I do not behave the way a loving and kind Higher Power would have me behanve.

 

Good luck with your book.

Edited January 16, 2023 by likerdup1

[Andy F]

3 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

On reading my last post I see it wasn't very kind. Forgive me. No need for me to sling mud and call names.

 

I'm very passionate about AA . The 12 step program and good sponsorship have given me a life I could not have ever imagined I would have. I consider myself a student and enthusiast of the AA basic text (The Big Book) and Twelve and Twelve book. I've helped many alcoholics recover from alcoholism by following the specific instructions in those two books.

 

White the AA fellowship is open to all people whatever their beliefs, convictions, race, creed, color, sexual orientation etc. The program itself is laid out very specifically in the texts and the chapter "We Agnostics" is designed to help those who consider themselves agnostic or atheist at least be open minded to the existence of a God, Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe or what have you.

 

I apologize for my heavy language. My passion about the program sometimes gets the best of me and I do not behave the way a loving and kind Higher Power would have me behanve.

 

Good luck with your book.

Thank you! Apology accepted. I am also passionate about the AA program from a secular perspective. Have a great 24! ????????????

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, Andy F said:

I have been through the steps many times as an agnostic. They guided me towards a non-God centered spiritual awakening. Are you saying that the program won't work for millions of Buddhists who do not believe in God? You gave your self the somewhat arrogant permission to call me sophomoric. Are you sure that it's not you who is sophomoric, or at the very least bigoted?

 

Some of us are very sensitive, actually most of us are. Do what you have to do.

 

You might find this useful, I've helped a lot of Thai alcoholics and the monk in the following link gave a workshop a few years back to them, in Thai. He was Aj. Buddhadassa Bikhu's translator.

 

https://www.liberationpark.org/audio/12step.htm

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Neeranam

[save the frogs]

Any Eckhart Tolle fans?

FYI:

 

 

[Neeranam]

Although I'm not a Buddhist, I read this book a few years  back, it's very good. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/One-Breath-Time-Buddhism-Twelve/dp/1579549055

[Neeranam]

...

Edited January 16, 2023 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

...

Edited January 16, 2023 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Any Eckhart Tolle fans?

FYI:

 

 

I saw that, I love Eckhart! 

Took me many years to read and 'understand' his classic book, The Power of Now.

[Neeranam]

I'd love to see the movie about Lama Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a spiritual leader who died from over drinking. 

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-reviews/crazy-wisdom-life-times-chogyam-101120/

[LaosLover]

Any thoughts on the Curious Sober approach?

 

I'm guessing you're not a fan. The young seem much more inclined towards it than AA.

 

I went to Potsmoker's Anonymous. A lot of those people smelled like the inside of a bong.

 

It sort of scared me straight. But now I smoke pot happily every day.

 

Some OCD no-lifer here was following me around denouncing me for having a rum and coke twice a week. I could get sober in an hour, but he will forever be a leg-humping drip.

[save the frogs]

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I'd love to see the movie about Lama Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a spiritual leader who died from over drinking. 

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-reviews/crazy-wisdom-life-times-chogyam-101120/

I'll try to give it a watch when I get the chance.

Thanks for the recommendation.