Parental Discipline Of Kids

[maerim]

where did I get this? life and experience have thaught me a lot and my 3 kids in their twenties who love their parents and say we did a good job. Even their friends always enjoyed being around in our home and talk about things they wouldn't dare to talk with their parents. From all of them I have learned many things even now I stil do.

I will phone the Pope as soon as he wakes up and get the canonisation proccess of you and you partner in motion straight away.

I don't care about these brats in the UK they are not my children its not my place to love and care for them, perhaps you can help them out a bit?

All I want them to do is show some respect I don't care where they learn it, just leave me and my property alone.

Perhaps the next time an eight year old stops you in the street in the UK and says" Oi mate, give us a cigarette" and when you say no he then tells you to eff off you might need to visit your opticians to get those rose tinted glasses adjusted

As the next time I am stopped here by a boy and asked that will be the first.

[stroll]

In Maerim district you maybe right, but I have been asked by gluesniffing teens for cigs and baht in the same way in Bkk as in the Uk.

[maerim]

Stroll

Did they tell you to eff off when you refused or scratch your motor with a coin like they did mine?

I am sure the big cities are much of a muchness anywhere in the world these days thats why I live in the sticks.

[stroll]

You are right, it is unpleasent, but nothing else, they are even friendly to me these days, although I never give anything, always the same local kids.

[john b good]

As master so servant!

I guess I’m old fashion. But the children I see both in Europe and Thailand today have no discipline at all.

But then I also shall admit that when I started to serve my military duty I think life got easy!

That’s not mean I had a hard time growing up. I love my parents and are home in Europe at least two times a year and help the old folks.

But must admit I shake my head when someone tell me about politeness here!

I am with you on that, I really do not know where some folks get this RESPECT word they are using all the time,pobly never heard it at home and came here and seen it somewhere and thought "wow cool word", I remember seeing somewhere that showed a pic of some dude crouching down when he went thru a group of people and they said that was the respectful way. Other than that I have seen no respect for anyone or anything in Thailand.

I was taught that to respect someone was to show consideration for that and all people,without consideration you had no respect.

If you have respect for folks,how can you be inconsiderate of them and act as if they aren't even there? Stop and stand and block sidewalks and isles in stores,never hold a door when someone is coming thru right behind you,and never say thanks if someone does hold it, try to run over them on sidewalks with your motorcycle,park on sidewalks,or in the middle of the streets and roads,never off the shoulders,but right in the roads.never ever take your place in line,but crowd in ahead of who ever will let you.

Go in food shops and other places where people set,let your kids run wild,make a lot of noise and disturb people,never pay any attn. to your kids.

But Thais never pay attention to their kids or animals,unless that animal is worth money,then never take their eyes off of it.Kids run wild,dogs and cats run wild,string garbage all over the yard and street,shit in the street and sidewalks,and never pick up after them,cause trouble and bark all nite,and then some folks say,,My MY what respectful folks these Thais is.

They think and run their lives just like they drive and and everyone that has ever been on the roads knows how that is, No one is more important than me,I respect no one.

And my wife is a school teacher,she gets ###### little respect from the students and is in fact,afraid of some of the older boys and I guess she has been threatened more than once, but there is nothing the school system will do,and no kid is ever held back,even if he never comes to school more than 1 day a week and then doesn't need to make very many classes.

Kevin,

You have covered everything that there is to say on "respect" here in Thailand.

99.99% of Thais have not got the slightest understanding of the meaning of the word (respect)

Any further comment by me would be superfluous.

Only just, "don't get me started" on Thais and respect. It's a myth.

[GuestHouse]

Something we should keep in mind is the fact that most of us, as foreigners, are not subjected to the same treatment from Thais that they reserve for each other.

Many kids back home are badly behaved, many are not.

What we do not have (yet) is the regular displays of group thuggery that go on in Thailand around colleges - huge gang fights are not uncommon between technical school students in Thailand.

Nor do we have incidents like that reported last year in which a group of Thai youths raped a female Thai student - OK that happens. But she was pulled off a croweded bus in the middle of Bangkok and nobody assisted her despite her calls for help.

The case of Duangchalerm is of course perhaps the best example of how wrong Thais can get things.

[KevinN]

Something we should keep in mind is the fact that most of us, as foreigners, are not subjected to the same treatment from Thais that they reserve for each other.

Many kids back home are badly behaved, many are not.

What we do not have (yet) is the regular displays of group thuggery that go on in Thailand around colleges - huge gang fights are not uncommon between technical school students in Thailand.

Nor do we have incidents like that reported last year in which a group of Thai youths raped a female Thai student - OK that happens. But she was pulled off a croweded bus in the middle of Bangkok and nobody assisted her despite her calls for help.

The case of Duangchalerm is of course perhaps the best example of how wrong Thais can get things.

I think you have things a little mixed up,,When I went to jr. high school in sacramento calif. back in the later 40s,we used to meet quite often in OAK PARK with another school for gang fights,,quite thrilling for a kid from the outback.

Coarse I don't know where you live.but the world is a very small place,not much difference where ya go.

[GuestHouse]

quite thrilling for a kid from the outback

To add spice to the thrill, Bangkok student gangs bring guns, knives and machettees along for their 'fisty -cuffs'.

[Roger13]

If you have respect for folks,how can you be inconsiderate of them and act as if they aren't even there? Stop and stand and block sidewalks and isles in stores,never hold a door when someone is coming thru right behind you,and never say thanks if someone does hold it, try to run over them on sidewalks with your motorcycle,park on sidewalks,or in the middle of the streets and roads,never off the shoulders,but right in the roads.never ever take your place in line,but crowd in ahead of who ever will let you.

Go in food shops and other places where people set,let your kids run wild,make a lot of noise and disturb people,never pay any attn. to your kids.

Examples of how Thai Adults behave in

the melee of crowds is surely different from

whether children obey their Parents and show

respect in the Family environment ?

Roger

[stroll]

I was just thinking the same. In the agegroup 15-18, I confirm armed gangs and there has been a series of organised gang-rapes of girls in the same age group where I live.

[KevinN]

If you have respect for folks,how can you be inconsiderate of them and act as if they aren't even there? Stop and stand and block sidewalks and isles in stores,never hold a door when someone is coming thru right behind you,and never say thanks if someone does hold it,  try to run over them on sidewalks with your motorcycle,park on sidewalks,or in the middle of the streets and roads,never off the shoulders,but right in the roads.never ever take your place in line,but crowd in ahead of who ever will let you.

Go in food shops and other places where people set,let your kids run wild,make a lot of noise and disturb people,never pay any attn. to your kids.

Examples of how Thai Adults behave in

the melee of crowds is surely different from

whether children obey their Parents and show

respect in the Family environment ?

Roger

I know exactly what I am talking about,my wife got 2 kids,and I threw the boy [who is 22 now] out when i came here as he was a lazy bastard and would have lived off his mom the same as his drunken dad had done and the 14 year old girl just ignores her mom when spoken to unless she wants to answer.

Besides that Respect for others is not something you turn on and off like a light. Either ya got it or ya don't. If you are raised to respect,then it is just second nature and hard to ignore years of conditioning. Thats why it is so easy for a Thai to be rude,they are not raised to respect anyone other than themselves.

You know of coarse that Thailand is not my first country of residence don't you?

[stroll]

"Besides that Respect for others is not something you turn on and off like a light. Either ya got it or ya don't. If you are raised to respect,then it is just second nature and hard to ignore years of conditioning. Thats why it is so easy for a Thai to be rude,they are not raised to respect anyone other than themselves."

Ilike to disagree here, this is personal observation, of course. Thais have some habits one might see as not having respect, but overall, I am treated with a lot more respect here than in other countries I've lived in. And I don't have the impression it is just because I am a farang.

As to children, I cannot comment, haven't got any, only a 19 year old stepdaughter. But the kids here don't seem to be worse than anywhere else.

[Roger13]

If you have respect for folks,how can you be inconsiderate of them and act as if they aren't even there? Stop and stand and block sidewalks and isles in stores,never hold a door when someone is coming thru right behind you,and never say thanks if someone does hold it,  try to run over them on sidewalks with your motorcycle,park on sidewalks,or in the middle of the streets and roads,never off the shoulders,but right in the roads.never ever take your place in line,but crowd in ahead of who ever will let you.

Go in food shops and other places where people set,let your kids run wild,make a lot of noise and disturb people,never pay any attn. to your kids.

Examples of how Thai Adults behave in

the melee of crowds is surely different from

whether children obey their Parents and show

respect in the Family environment ?

Roger

I know exactly what I am talking about,my wife got 2 kids,and I threw the boy [who is 22 now] out when i came here as he was a lazy bastard and would have lived off his mom the same as his drunken dad had done and the 14 year old girl just ignores her mom when spoken to unless she wants to answer.

Besides that Respect for others is not something you turn on and off like a light. Either ya got it or ya don't. If you are raised to respect,then it is just second nature and hard to ignore years of conditioning. Thats why it is so easy for a Thai to be rude,they are not raised to respect anyone other than themselves.

You know of coarse that Thailand is not my first country of residence don't you?

Kevin,

Your example of kids behaviour in your own home

is back on topic - but I think is not Typical of Thai life.

And I don't think it explains bad crowd behaviour.

The majority of those you describe in impersonal

contact in Malls etc - will act quite differently

on a Personal level.

Roger

[Felt 35]

Respect for others is not something you turn on and off like a light. Either ya got it or ya don't. If you are raised to respect,then it is just second nature and hard to ignore years of conditioning.

Agree.

Respect and politness is something you have in you, and veryone you treat alike.

[sbk]

Interesting thread, I have to agree with the single poster who pointed out that bad behavior among children occurs in every culture. I have seen many small Thai children hitting and kicking their mothers because they couldn't get a bag of chips (crisps). My sister's son is a beautifully behaved child who always says 'please' and 'thank you' and stopped acting up in public when he was about two and a half (all kids are terrible at 2). On my flight back to Thailand there was a half japanese-half american kid who screamed (piercing shriek actually) whenever she couldn't get her own way. Mom and dad let her run loose around the plane. I have seen badly behaved kids from the US, Britain and many European countries. I have also seen well behaved kids from these countries as well.

I think it just depends on the parents (ok some kids are just monsters but I think that must be a small percent) and how evenly they enforce their rules. You want a badly behaved kid? Then keep changing the rules, one day its ok to do something, next day its not. Sure fire way to get a kid who throws tantrums.

[KevinN]

Roger said;;;And I don't think it explains bad crowd behaviour.

The majority of those you describe in impersonal

contact in Malls etc - will act quite differently

on a Personal level.""

So do or did you raise your children to only show respect and consideration to people that they knew and ###### over and be rude to every one that they didn't??

That is why there is rude children,car jackings,rapes,muggings and killings all over the world today,children being raised without respect.

Treat others as you would have them treat you,,member,grandma told ya.

[Payne]

I agree that kids seems to vary greatly in behavior both in Thailand and elsewhere. Yes, in most cases its really the parents fault if the kids are a real pain in the neck. Dogs and small children are very much alike. When I see a dog acting up, its really the master or mistress that is at fault.

Do I believe in spanking of small children? Yes, if employed in moderation and very occasionally. The mother of my TG up in Issan told me that she spanked all her five kids once in a blue moon and it seemed to make them more responsible.

[john b good]

KevinN said (amongst other things)

Besides that Respect for others is not something you turn on and off like a light. Either ya got it or ya don't. If you are raised to respect,then it is just second nature and hard to ignore years of conditioning. Thats why it is so easy for a Thai to be rude,they are not raised to respect anyone other than themselves.

Again exactly correct, 100% spot but please don't get me started.

I have lived and worked in some 12 countries (and visited another 40 or so) and you would be hard pressed to find a group of people who's mission in life is only just for they themselves as here in Thailand.

Respect, don't make me laugh (or choke)

[maerim]

Which brings us nicely to the question of "Do you believe in clubs for women"

Answer " Yes, when all other methods fail"

The House of Lords in the UK has just knocked back a proposal to, get this, a ban on smacking children.

This would have criminalised about 70% of the population there, policiticall correctness, don't you just love it?

[KevinN]

They are getting bad in the states too,getting so you can not do anything to your kids or they got your ass up on abuse charges,and then everyone wonders where the ###### all the bad kids come from.

I do not like to see a kid getting his ass whipped,or for that matter even scolded,I just look the other way unless it would be out of reason abuse.

But if my kid started to misbehave in a store or where ever,and she didn't pay attention to me,then I would give her a hand on the butt,and things got straight in a hurry.I never had to actually spank her.

It was hard on my youngest as he mother is a Mexican and they are like Thai,they do not believe in discipline, Takes to much of their personal time to actually invest time in a kid.and her mother would just tell her about every 20 times she did something to not do that,,but no consistency.so it was hard on the kid cause she didn't know if you was serious or not.

But how does the powers that be expect a civilized generation to follow us if they have no learning in discipline,,how will they ever hold a job and take orders from someone when they have never taken orders from anyone? I have already seen that here with Thais working on my new house,if you insist that it be done to a certain standard,they will go home and never come back.

Does that have anything to do with the quality of stuff that we buy? I never thought about it before,now I will.

[p1p]

If matrimony and hanging go

By dest'ny, why not whipping too?

What med'cine else can cure the fits

Of lovers when they lose their wits?

Love is a boy by poets stil'd;

Then spare the rod and spoil the child.

Samuel Butler - Hudibras, Part II Canto I

I am a firm believer in a loving smack to cure a misbehaving child. This medicine worked very well for me, why not use it for my children.

Being no Xtian hoser, I still can not help but note even the Bible suggests a little corporal punishment to be in order:

Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from he11.

Proverbs 23:12-14

[Ajarn]

Violence begets violence. Plain and simple.

I don't believe in EVER hitting ANY kid. People who solve their problems with violence only show their own weaknesses, in my way of looking at things.

[p1p]

Violence begets violence. Plain and simple.

I don't believe in EVER hitting ANY kid. People who solve their problems with violence only show their own weaknesses, in my way of looking at things.

Ajarn, I would most like to get together and discuss this subject.

However, in short, there is a world of difference between "... solving problems with violence" and "a loving smack to cure a misbehaving child. In my life, I have been on the recieving end and a witness to both.

There is never any excuse for violence, it accomplishes nothing worthwhile. A loving chastisement will, however teach a lesson and frequently has the effect of bringing the giver and receiver of dicipline closer together. It did for me, and has done for my children too.

[Pepe']

Kevin,

To say I agree with you would be a gross understatement.

However we have a similar phenomenon here in San Diego. There is no accountability for property damage. Parents believe their childrens lies before your version of what happened.

This topic has come up with some of the neighbors in disbelief about the destructive and disrespectful behaviour of kids that are raised in a good area, with good schools and everything money can buy.

The concensus seems to be that it is easier for the parents to not deal with the realities of their kids outrageous behaviour because they are lazy and just plain out of it.

I can't help wondering what these kids are going to be like when they grow up.

When we were kids all my old man was look at us and the bs ended. If it didn't we got our butt whipped properly with the old Marine dress belt. We hated it but so did he. Two boys in a bad neighborhood in Newark did get into some trouble from time. We were not the worse for ware and weloved him until the day he died.

Also neighboors were encouraged to discipline us and we were allways responsible for any damage accidental or deliberate to someone elses property.

This situation used to really bother me but I've given up thinking about it, most times, because it's only going to get worse.

Again I can't imagine the culmination of this syndrom in the future.

[Ajarn]

Violence begets violence. Plain and simple.

I don't believe in EVER hitting ANY kid. People who solve their problems with violence only show their own weaknesses, in my way of looking at things.

Ajarn, I would most like to get together and discuss this subject.

However, in short, there is a world of difference between "... solving problems with violence" and "a loving smack to cure a misbehaving child. In my life, I have been on the recieving end and a witness to both.

There is never any excuse for violence, it accomplishes nothing worthwhile. A loving chastisement will, however teach a lesson and frequently has the effect of bringing the giver and receiver of dicipline closer together. It did for me, and has done for my children too.

I certainly agree that every parent has to decide what works in their situation. I have my own strong feelings, as you obviously do, too. I would never try to suggest to you that you don't know how to take care of your kids. I know your kids, too, and I think you're a great Mom, personally

Admittedly, I am not a parent, and being a teacher dealing with kids all day ain't the same, either, I'm sure.

My only real experience at parenting came from when I was a live-in counselor to troubled teens...Most of these kids came from a world of violence, either at home, or on the streets. Often, they were violent themselves. I had to restrain kids at times who were going off, but I never caused them any physical pain. I lived with these kids fulltime, so I went through all the parent motions with their schooling (parent conferences) and medical, cooking, shopping, homework, etc. My goal was to build a relationship of trust, model reasonable behavior, and motivate them to be good kids...Kick ass when needed, but without the violence or physical pain

I'm a firm believer in the 'tough love' concept. Strict, but balanced with hugs, too I believe if we want to change behaviors and atitudes in kids, we must be strong enough to set clear limits, and back them up consistently. It takes real heart to do that. I learned through trial and error what motivated them, and used that to motivate changes in them. I was their role model, and I wanted to model nonviolent behavior. These kids were used to seeing violence as a way to deal with problems, but of course, violence is not very effective at solving problems for them- they just got in more trouble...

Many kids tried to get me to go 'off' on them. They'd push all my buttons, hoping....

But, a parent needs to not bite at such bait, getting involved in a power struggle. I believe these kids are asking for limits, and I believe they get an inner sense of security from those limits as long as they are fair and reasonable, but there can be no mixed messages, to be effective. Limits and consequences must be spelled out clearly and backed up....I have never seen the need to hit any kid, even when they're acting like jerks in public... My kids knew that they would pay the price later, through various restrictions, etc. They knew they could trust me to follow through, that no way was their behaviour going to be ignored...Of course, it was often ###### for everyone in the beginning, but there was always the payoff if I did my part right. My strength in their eyes didn't come from my size, and I didn't need to physically intimidate them to make my point.

In that particular situation, I was effective with every kid who spent enough time with me...I really felt this work was my particular 'niche', but classroom teaching was even more 'my bag'

[KevinN]

True enough Ajarn, But you were dealing with kids with a few years behind them,

It is a lot harder to reason and talk sense to a child of 2 or 3,,After a kid is old enough to talk to and have them understand what you are talking about.

But a small child is only going to understand very little of your grownup explinations. That is when a swat on the but gets thru to them,first they have to understand NO and what happens if they don't stop,Pretty hard to ground or take away TV privelages from a 2 year old.

Before your theory will work,a kid has to be old enough to understand and to do some reasoning on his own.

Just like your dog,generally your dog will respect you enough to do what is wanted of him,but if he don't then him not getting to come in and watch TV ain't gonna get it. But first he has to understand what you want and how to do it.

[Ajarn]

True enough Ajarn, But you were dealing with kids with a few years behind them,

It is a lot harder to reason and talk sense to a child of 2 or 3,,After a kid is old enough to talk to and have them understand what you are talking about.

But a small child is only going to understand very little of your grownup explinations. That is when a swat on the but gets thru to them,first they have to understand NO and what happens if they don't stop,Pretty hard to ground or take away TV privelages from a 2 year old.

Before your theory will work,a kid has to be old enough to understand and to do some reasoning on his own.

Just like your dog,generally your dog will respect you enough to do what is wanted of him,but if he don't then him not getting to come in and watch TV ain't gonna get it. But first he has to understand what you want and how to do it.

But you were dealing with kids with a few years behind them,

It is a lot harder to reason and talk sense to a child of 2 or 3,,After a kid is old enough to talk to and have them understand what you are talking about.

But a small child is only going to understand very little of your grownup explinations. That is when a swat on the but gets thru to them,first they have to understand NO and what happens if they don't stop,Pretty hard to ground or take away TV privelages from a 2 year old.

Yes, sir, good points. Age does make a difference, and I've mostly been able to witness 2 year old tantrums from afar, always happy it ain't me dealing with it, for sure!

In such cases, I have witnessed a swat on the well-padded-by-diapers fanny (American English!) to get them on the same page as Mom or Dad. No pain, but some shock to be sure....And the point that Mom or Dad thinks it ain't cool gets across, I'm pretty sure. Shock often has a similar effect on teenagers, like when it finally dawns on them the game just ain't gonna work anymore

I guess it's the pain part that rubs me the wrong way. I just can't get behind pain as tool of love. Human nature sure is quircky, so maybe there can be effects worth the cause, but I just don't have the heart for it personally.

I hope that parents who do choose corporal punishment are doing it for the right and sensible reasons, whatever they are, as long as the reason is not that the parent lost their senses, stricking out of anger/frustration....Unfortunately, a lot of abuse does go on around us, and there do need be standards of Law, Societal or State, that are there to protect those that are truly being abused, and have clear guidelines as to what crosses the line....

Interesting discussion. I think we all agree that discipline, which includes personal discipline, is critical for our kids to learn, and that not nearly enough of our kids do get those valuable survival skills nowadays....

[john b good]

I would never advocate the use of severe smacking but I think that the message should be communicated to some of these wilful little shi*s that their behaviour is unacceptable.

If this means that they must eat their meals off the mantle piece (until their little pink/brown butts recover) so be it.

As in everything the punishment should fit the crime.

And no one should ever be a servant to their children (not ever)

[Pepe']

john b good,

No offense John but to me it sounds like your dreamin'. My brother and I were real ###### raisers when we were kids.

When we got caught, we paid. Most times the punishment did fit the crime. Was it somewhat extreme at times, probably but was the status quo where I was raised.

If parents are in denial, what can be done?

[kwangandjo]

I also thought Thai children respect their folks more. I quite agree with that, but on the other hand, they do as they please. My gf has got a younger sister who is 14 years of age now. Giving her parents grey hairs. She likes to go out at night to hang out with her "friends" only to return in early morning. People of about her age and older (including drug-users). Her dad is headmaster and very well respected. Everybody has tried to reason with her. Dad punished her by not giving pocket money anymore, desperately tried everything he could think of until he slapped her once. He doesn't know anymore what to do. So he just acts now like "she is not my daughter anymore; I don't care about her anymore", but he is just lying himself and he very well knows it. Their daughter respects them both very much, but they can't control her. She does whatever she wants. "I just enjoy going out at night now; you can't control me; I won't do bad thing,...".

I couldn't believe they let her go on like this; was already saying to my gf if she was my daughter I'd do this and that. Until I was there, the girl was very friendly; always waiing people; just hard to get angry with her. Her mom was already very happy if she sometimes stayed home at night, giving her daughter a hug and kisses. These parents are really soft, friendly, easy-going,... .

And I must admit, the place where they were, was really boring. I was seeing her point of view too. This girl had the taste of nightlife, being with friends, doing exciting stuff. Other than staying home and read grandmom some book, watching TV all day or read books.

I was raised in a farm. There was always work. And working with animals is a joy. There was never hanging out with friends for me and I didn't feel like that too. Because it would have felt like boring to me.

I think Thai parents are too sweet for their children in general, want to give them everything. Part of the culture. They give everything they have to their children and then live in with one of them (grandmom). "I took care of you before, now you take care of me". Fact is that many Thai youngsters never ever had to work. They get bored and then comes trouble. Parents are just asking for it when they think that being a good parent is doing everything for their children.

But what can you let them do for work around here? Any way to answer the thread: Thai youth has much more respect, but I think parents control them less.

This case is by far not the only case in Thailand. Similar situations happen all over Thailand.