'We're asking for help to bring our boy home to Manchester so he's not alone as he fights for his life'

[robblok]

On 3/11/2023 at 3:11 PM, richard_smith237 said:

Its a valid point... I wonder if proportionately this does occur to more Brits than other nationalities, or, if its simply picked-up because the AN news team are predominantly English speaking and reporting on news already reported on in English (i.e. by British Media). 

 

I think there are just a lot of Brits and yes they read English newspapers. To be honest I think the UK press is different from the Dutch press. I never read anything about accidents of Dutch people. I am pretty sure we are not bullet proof. But I only read one of the big national newspapers. Maybe it just pops up more. But I often read on this forum how members hate insurance agencies. So maybe they also buy less insurance in the UK.

 

Plus people from the USA seem to be more on the ball with their healthcare insurance. Probably because of their country. 

 

I doubt there are many on Asean Now redaction that read French / German. Not to mention the effort they would have to put in translating. So IMHO those are the reasons. Different kind of newspapers in the UK and the language bias.

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

Do what are you saying enough of? He should be left to die?

How much money will you send?

[robblok]

The whole helmet discussion is pointless. Talking that its the fault of the police for not enforcing.

 

You don't wear a helmet to escape fines, you wear them so you dont end up like this guy for example.

 

I lived a bit more rural before almost no police checks but I always wore my helmet. Those who don't wear helmets should accept the risks and don't moan about it and <deleted> the blame.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Sadly, people will take chances, people will also break the law given the chance - especially when that law is not enforced.

 

This is why I brought the role of the state into this discussion.  I am not totally blaming the state for this and the other accidents with similar consequences that we hear of all too often. What I am saying is that the state has a role to play. Would this accident have happened at all in a different country - somehow I doubt it would, not in a country that has properly enforced traffic laws.

 

That said, even in such a country, accidents do happen - laws and enforcement will never stop them all. But, and its a very big but, the Thai state knows very well that literally thousands of people are killed on motorcycles on its roads every year. It also knows that its laws are not enforced and that all too often fines are both inadequate and are nothing more than Tea Money.

 

Enforcement would not save all those lives but I think its a safe bet that it would save an awful lot of them.  Its not too difficult to understand that the threat of a much higher penalty and the loss of one's licence would take time, but eventually would change things.  Yes people are much poorer in Thailand - so what?  All the more reason for them to fear a heavy fine or the loss of their licence.

 

But what do we see from the state? A new points system that allows people to be caught for drink driving 3 times before losing their licence!  To make things worse, they are now proposing ways that people who have lost points, can get them back within 6 months!!!

 

How do I know that a properly enforced system of punishment will work?  I see it in action every day in my home country - the UK.  I would bet everthing I own that on my drive into work tomorrow, I see no motorcycle riders not wearing their crash helmet.  Yes, there are far less motorcycles on the UK's roads but its not just about that, its about people's attitude towards the law.

 

I'm pretty sure that if people could get away with not wearing a crash helmet in the UK, some would.  I'm also pretty sure that if people could pay the police a few pounds to get out of a traffic offence or losing their licence, they would.

 

If people all behaved properly without laws, we wouldn't need them would we? As I said earlier, that's Utopia and it doesn't exist.

 

So, in my opinion, backed up by evidence of how things work in other countries, I believe that the state has a lot to answer for in this and all the other accidents that sadly happen in Thailand on a daily basis.

 

I am not a fan of over-regulation but there are some facets of life where regulations are very necessary.  When you ride a bike or drive a car, you are in charge of a weapon.  A weapon that can not only kill or mame you, it can kill and mame others - to say nothing of the heartache caused to victim's friends and families.

 

Regulation and its enforcement is sadly lacking on Thailand's roads and that needs putting right.  Will it be? The answer to that can be found in what I said about the new points system. Not a hope in hell. Next week, next month and next year, we will still be reading similar stories to the OP.

We have both lived in Thailand a good while, yes? My home country is the US, yours (apparently) the UK.

 

I look at the crime in Thailand, and the crime in the US and I think they generally do a pretty good job here. 

 

Do they do a good job of enforcing traffic laws? No. 

 

Crime rate in Thailand is trending down, while the crime rate in the US (which is already significantly higher) is trending up. 

 

But our thinking seems to be that our Western ideas are going to improve things. It is my position that that they will not. 

 

It is my position that Billy-Bob ending up in a coma because he was drunk, riding a motorcycle without a helmet while talking to his girlfriend on the phone is not a good reason to stop kids from having the time of their lives riding three or four up to school out in the provinces.

 

To be clear, I support enforcing traffic laws, but there are many more laws I support more strongly. 

 

I also support mandating a minimum quality helmet standard, but it makes little sense if people are not wearing them, and while policing Lotus for selling unapproved helmet may be relatively easy, policing Lazada and all the mom-and-pop shops will not be.

 

Everything is a trade-off. Resources used to compel the use of helmets have to come from somewhere. 

[The Fugitive]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

The whole helmet discussion is pointless. Talking that its the fault of the police for not enforcing.

 

You don't wear a helmet to escape fines, you wear them so you dont end up like this guy for example.

 

I lived a bit more rural before almost no police checks but I always wore my helmet. Those who don't wear helmets should accept the risks and don't moan about it and <deleted> the blame.

100% in a nutshell!

[Dogsredrocket]

15 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Somchai? You sound like a racist. 

Strawman 

 

15 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Is a cheap helmet better than no helmet or not? 

You’re the one bringing money into it pal. I never mentioned cheap or price. You did in an effort to make your strawman argument. I mentioned quality helmet.

 

You are unable to form an argument as your position is indefensible. Hence why you are getting served by everyone in this thread.

 

I note that choose not to quote my post on a helmet less rider being 2-3 times as likely to die in a crash as someone wearing a helmet which is based on facts.

 

You need a hobby

 

 

[Dogsredrocket]

16 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I was responding to someone moaning the helmets people wear are too cheap. Please try to follow along. 

 

 

You literally made this up strawman. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Dogsredrocket said:

Strawman 

 

You’re the one bringing money into it pal. I never mentioned cheap or price. You did in an effort to make your strawman argument. I mentioned quality helmet.

 

You are unable to form an argument as your position is indefensible. Hence why you are getting served by everyone in this thread.

 

I note that choose not to quote my post on a helmet less rider being 2-3 times as likely to die in a crash as someone wearing a helmet which is based on facts.

 

You need a hobby

 

 

Look Buddy, I was not the one that brought helmet cost into the discussion, that was brought into the discussion by others. That said, is does a high-quality helmet not generally cost more than a low-quality helmet? 

 

I wish I were able to quote your 2-3 times as likely to die in a crash as I would guess it is demonstrably false. Why not re-post the data and we'll have a look.

 

I don't know what you think my position is, but to be clear, I believe:

1. Everyone riding a motorcycle should wear a helmet.

2. That wearing a helmet significantly improves the rider's chances of surviving a serious accident.

3. That only helmets of a reasonable quality should be available for sale to the public. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Dogsredrocket said:

You literally made this up strawman. 

You are correct and I apologize. I was conflating price with quality. As you (apparently) believe the two are unrelated, I was wrong in making that claim. 

[Captor]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:51 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

Divorced?

Already 5 kids at 32? Quite active man.

[Ralf001]

4 hours ago, kwilco said:

.however I believe that Thailand has a responsibility towards visitors' safety as they are contributing to 20% of the country's  income.

 

Yeah the new 300b entry tax part of which will go towards <deleted> <deleted> visitors that hurt themselves and have no insurance to pay the bills.

[Dogsredrocket]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

wish I were able to quote your 2-3 times as likely to die in a crash as I would guess it is demonstrably false. Why not re-post the data and we'll have a look.

Ask and you shall receive. Do you honestly believe this to be a false claim? If so you are an idiot. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15389580500338652?journalCode=gcpi20

 

You are obviously an expat that learned to ride a motorcycle here Thai style. No competent motorcyclists licensed in a developed country would repeat your rubbish. If you are going to be hit by a truck would you rather be in a quality helmet, gloves and kevlar clothing or in sandals and a ratty face mask, no helmet?

 

90% of what you have spouted here has been debunked by others. This includes your false claims that the majority of Thais wear helmets. Anyone with eyes in their head knows this to be BS.

 

Someone kick this guy out of the forum. It would be worth it for the lightened load on admin alone.

 

 

[Chivas]

On 3/11/2023 at 9:06 AM, Smokey and the Bandit said:

but the problem here is, it appears from the OP that he was intoxicated and had no helmet, which would probably invalidate any insurance, if he had  it?

The helmet would deter almost certainly the insurance company from taking an interest however the alcohol certainly would

Insurance (any situation) depends and requires you to be acting sensibly at all times

 

Clearly this geezer wasnt and frankly as most posters here privately would say the "tale" from the family is frankly spurious

 

The bloke was mullered driving a bike at 03.30...period

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Dogsredrocket said:

Ask and you shall receive. Do you honestly believe this to be a false claim? If so you are an idiot. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15389580500338652?journalCode=gcpi20

 

You are obviously an expat that learned to ride a motorcycle here Thai style. No competent motorcyclists licensed in a developed country would repeat your rubbish. If you are going to be hit by a truck would you rather be in a quality helmet, gloves and kevlar clothing or in sandals and a ratty face mask, no helmet?

 

90% of what you have spouted here has been debunked by others. This includes your false claims that the majority of Thais wear helmets. Anyone with eyes in their head knows this to be BS.

 

Someone kick this guy out of the forum. It would be worth it for the lightened load on admin alone.

 

 

More insults, nice. I am not questioning the accuracy the study, and I don't doubt the results, but it does not support your statement that "...helmet less rider being 2-3 times as likely to die in a crash as someone wearing a helmet...". 

 

Again, I don't know what you think my position is, but to be clear, I believe:

1. Everyone riding a motorcycle should wear a helmet.

2. That wearing a helmet significantly improves the rider's chances of surviving a serious accident.

3. That only helmets of a reasonable quality should be available for sale to the public. 

 

Where is it we disagree? 

 

I learned to ride in California in the late sixties and was pretty much done with it by 1988 after a serious accident. I have never ridden a motorcycle on Thail public roads.

 

I live in Bangkok, and I can look out the window and see almost everyone wearing helmets. Now it could be that the majority of Thais country wide do not wear helmets, but I don't see it looking out the window or driving around greater Bangkok. When I had a close friend in Pattaya I used to visit pretty often, and I would see fewer helmets there, but I don't know that it was disproportionately Thais not wearing them. 

 

I already posted a clip of Bangkok that supports my position, here's a pic of (apparently) Korat: 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, Captor said:

On 3/11/2023 at 12:51 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

Divorced?

Already 5 kids at 32? Quite active man.

Was there a point to your remark?

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

It is my position that Billy-Bob ending up in a coma because he was drunk, riding a motorcycle without a helmet while talking to his girlfriend on the phone is not a good reason to stop kids from having the time of their lives riding three or four up to school out in the provinces.

But they don't have the time of their life, many die.  Also, the example I cited in Korat where they do that in front of traffic police is not on a quiet country lane - its on the main road through the city!

 

If you think its OK for 3 or 4 12 year old children to ride a bike without a helmet in a busy city, then shame on you.

[IvorBiggun2]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

1. Everyone riding a motorcycle should wear a helmet.

I agree to a certain extent. The helmet should also meet a safety approval test.

[KhaoYai]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

We have both lived in Thailand a good while, yes? My home country is the US, yours (apparently) the UK.

 

I look at the crime in Thailand, and the crime in the US and I think they generally do a pretty good job here. 

 

Do they do a good job of enforcing traffic laws? No. 

 

Crime rate in Thailand is trending down, while the crime rate in the US (which is already significantly higher) is trending up. 

 

But our thinking seems to be that our Western ideas are going to improve things. It is my position that that they will not. 

I have lived in Thailand on and off but have been a regular visitor (over 150 trips) for 21 years and have a home near Khao Yai. I am not however, in Thailand full time at the moment.

 

But we are not talking about the overall crime rate - we are talking about traffic laws.

 

Western ideas?  They are not Western ideas, they are laws which are comensurate with the traffic situation. They are laws designed to protect people.  The reasons for having a speed limit in Thailand or wearing a helmet are just the same as they are in the West. Thailand's roads have improved greatly since I first visited and in many cases they equal those of many Western countries.  One of the main differences is that they are frequented by an awful lot of people that have had little of no formal driver training, many don't hold a licence and a lot of others have paid for theirs.  Those that do pass their test do so very easily as the standard of the test is woefully inadequate.

 

If enforcement is a 'Western' idea, as you seem to be suggesting - so be it.  We are almost at the pinnacle of the road deaths period in Thailand - Songkran. Expect another 800 or so motorcyclists to die.  Many of those that will die will be drunk and many will not be wearing a helmet.

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

You're xiting Thailands traffic laws and their enforcement which you don't understand are not the whole issue...it is intact a complex situation that is centred on public health issues amongst others...you're seeking a simplification because you fail to grasp the fill complexities of the overall situation. You are fixating on this one individual and applying an incorrect assessment of Thai Road safety issues to it.

That won't get a solution.

Wrong on all counts.

 

I don't understand the traffic laws? Complex?  It is against the law to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. That law is not fully enforced, hence the amount of people riding around without them. When roadside checks are made and small fines issued, it is well known that those fines do not reach the destination that they should. Nothing complex about that.

 

For further answers to your complex public health issues - ask Thai people why they disregard the traffic laws.  I know far more Thai people in Thailand than foreigners, most of my friends are Thai - we talk about these issues.

 

If you have an accident on a motorcycle, you are likely to injure your head.  That situation is greatly reduced if you are wearing a decent quality crash helmet - full stop. Nothing to do with complex social situations, plain and simple blood and guts - literally.

 

I am not fixating on one individual at all.  These accidents happen every day but they happen in the main, amongst the native population. The entire road safety issue in Thailand is dire.

 

 

Your assertion that the situation is complex is, in my opinion, total rubbish and a typical left wing viewpoint.  Its quite simple - there are roads, roads can be dangerous, therefore to reduce that danger, rules need to be put in place to protect people. In order for those rules to work, they have to be enforced.  Thailand fails - mainly in enforcement.

 

The laws exist but they are rarely followed.  The governement comes out with a load of blustre about changing the laws to make things safer each time a serious accident occurrs, then does nothing.

 

Your over-complication not my simplification. What is complex about a policeman fining someone for not wearing a helmet (or any other traffic law) and putting that fine in his pocket? Do you know how Thai people feel about their police force as a result of such corruption?

 

Leave Social Science out of this please.  Complex social issues or public health issues have no place in road safety.  Roads/Accidents/Rules/Enforcement they are there for the same reasons and are just as necessary wherever they are.

[IvorBiggun2]

43 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Many of those that will die will be drunk and many will not be wearing a helmet.

And I believe most accidents occur in/on the hard shoulder which Thais firmly believe to be a motorcycle lane. 

[jerrymahoney]

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

And I believe most accidents occur in/on the hard shoulder which Thais firmly believe to be a motorcycle lane. 

... and with many going the wrong way on the hard shoulder.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

We are almost at the pinnacle of the road deaths period in Thailand - Songkran.

Road deaths are generally lower over Songkhran

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

And I believe most accidents occur in/on the hard shoulder which Thais firmly believe to be a motorcycle lane. 

As you say they "believe" (incorrectly)  it is the motorcycle lane, surely that means that THAI motorist are well aware there are motorcycles there and LESS likely to have a crash there?

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

don't understand the traffic laws? Complex?

As you show by this that you don't understand road safety or what I've said.

I said (typos corrected) - "You're citing Thailands traffic laws and their enforcement which you don't understand are not the whole issue" I'm not sure whether you lack comprehencion or are just being obtuse.

 

You profound lack of knowledge of raod safety makes it impossible to discuss with you. You need to get up to speed on raid safety and not fixate on single issues ... then you'll get the whole picture and be able to make a reasoned comment without fallacious premises.

[Puccini]

On 3/12/2023 at 6:27 PM, Bday Prang said:

Making insurance compulsory would only result in higher insurance premiums for everybody when the insurance companies have to pay out mega bucks for cases similar this. 

The contrary would be happening; the insurane companies would make heaps of profit.

[Bday Prang]

17 minutes ago, Puccini said:

The contrary would be happening; the insurane companies would make heaps of profit.

 I don't agree,   They make heaps of profit as things are, but  if they have to pay out for more cases like this, premiums will of course rise .  

[Bday Prang]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Road deaths are generally lower over Songkhran

As they are over Christmas / new year  during the "7 deadly days"

[itsari]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:31 PM, GinBoy2 said:

I don't want to rehash the usual travel insurance stuff, which is pretty relevant.

 

But in the article is states 'brain function is now minimal'

 

Does that mean he's essentially brain dead?

I would agree with your assumption,  what brain capacity was available before the accident is questionable 

[IvorBiggun2]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

it is the motorcycle lane,

There are NO motorcycle lanes in Thailand. Google is yer friend.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

There are NO motorcycle lanes in Thailand. Google is yer friend.

There are indeed motorcycle lanes in Thailand , its just back home we call the pavements