Compensation Upon Firing For Farang?

[buddhafly]

i understand that for thai's who have worked at a co. for 1 year they are entitled to 3 months of salary for exit package. and after 3 years they are entitled to 6 months worth of salary.

does this hold true for farang working in bangkok, with proper work permit etc? or is it that if he is on a contract he is uneligible. my contract says nothing about it either way.

thanks.

[Gary A]

i understand that for thai's who have worked at a co. for 1 year they are entitled to 3 months of salary for exit package. and after 3 years they are entitled to 6 months worth of salary.

does this hold true for farang working in bangkok, with proper work permit etc? or is it that if he is on a contract he is uneligible. my contract says nothing about it either way.

thanks.

I have no idea what the law is but there is some type of severance package. A friend of mine worked for a Thai company for about ten years and got fired. He went home and told his wife. His wife told him that the company HAD to give him some compensation. She handled it and he ended up getting a months pay for each year he worked there.

[bendix]

Farangs are treated exactly the same way under Thai employment law regarding severance. The law is very much on the employee's side.

You would only be eligible for three months AFTER 1 year. I think under that it is one month. From 3-6 years it is six months and from 6-10 years it is nine months.

There are very few exceptions where employers are NOT obliged to give this severance. From the top of my head they include if the employee resigns, is imprisoned, is grossly negligent or neglects their duties with no good reason for three days in succession. There are more, but I can't remember them off hand.

Even employees (thai or farang) on a fixed period contract can usually get severance, PROVIDING their contract work isn't seasonal or outside the normal business of the employer (eg a special project). Some employers have moved to fixed term contracts in a mistaken view they are not liable for severance if they unilaterally decide not to renew the contract. They are wrong - not renewing a fixed term contract is the same as effectively dismissing someone for no good reason.

This has recently been tested in the employment courts and courts ruled in the employee's favour. Curiously, the guy was a farang on a fixed term contract with a multinational company.

Edited July 4, 2007 by bendix

[ThaiPauly]

Good reply Bendix,

When I had a company in Bangkok this was my understanding of the situation.

BTW Bendix I am curious to know what type of business you are in?

[bendix]

I work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

[donna]

thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

recently i was told that my contract was up and it would not be renewed. i was not required to come to work the following day, that was it. all over red rover. the reason i was given was that the company did not want to pay a foreigner to do the work i was doing.

in the time i had been working there, i had increased rooms revenue by 24% in the first 5 months of this year, had never stuffed anything up in a major way, and had good relationships with all staff there.

anyway, after checking with 2 separate lawyers, i was told that i was owed a minimum of 1 month in lieu of notice, and 1 month severance. i then went to another lawyer in bkk and was told that i was, in fact, owed 1 month in lieu of notice and 3 months severance, as well as service charge for those months (i worked in the hotel industry). (initially i got my dates wrong, thats the reason for the error)

the hotel i was working for are arguing that my contract was for one year (it was not a 'special project' and was part of the every day running of the hotel) and as it was a fixed term, then i am entitled to nothing. it is clearly stated in the contract that if either party chooses to terminate the contract, that 30 days notice would be given. this was never given, so i assumed that the contract would be continued.

anyway, the lawyer has sent some docs to the hotel and i am waiting on their response.

i do not want to screw the hotel and i do not feel bitter towards anyone there. i just want what i am legally entitled to. below is some info i found on thai labour law which is pretty straight forward:

Termination and Severance

An employee normally must be given notice of termination at least one pay period or one month in advance of termination, whichever is shorter. This notice period does not apply to employees being terminated for cause.

"Cause" includes:

1. dishonest performance of duties or an intentional criminal offense against the employer;

2. intentionally causing harm to the employer;

3. violating work rules or orders of the employer for which a written warning has previously been issued to the employee (serious violations might not require a warning);

4. neglecting the employee's duties for three consecutive working days without justifiable cause;

5. gross negligence causing serious harm to the employer;

6. being sentenced to imprisonment.

Except in cases in which the termination is "for cause" as described immediately above, a full-time employee who is terminated by an employer must be paid severance pay as follows:

Period of Employment Amount of Severance Pay

More than 120 days but less than 1 year 30 days wages or salary

At least 1 year but less than 3 years 90 days wages or salary

At least 3 years but less than 6 years 180 days wages or salary

At least 6 years but less than 10 years 240 days wages or salary

At least 10 years 300 days wages or salary

Employees for a fixed duration do not qualify for severance. Under the Labor Protection Act, such employees must have a written contract of not more than two years duration. Work qualifying for such a contract must be a special project not in the normal course of the employer's business, or must be for temporary or seasonal employment.

[buddhafly]

thanks for all the great answers....

[bendix]

thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

recently i was told that my contract was up and it would not be renewed. i was not required to come to work the following day, that was it. all over red rover. the reason i was given was that the company did not want to pay a foreigner to do the work i was doing.

in the time i had been working there, i had increased rooms revenue by 24% in the first 5 months of this year, had never stuffed anything up in a major way, and had good relationships with all staff there.

anyway, after checking with 2 separate lawyers, i was told that i was owed a minimum of 1 month in lieu of notice, and 1 month severance. i then went to another lawyer in bkk and was told that i was, in fact, owed 1 month in lieu of notice and 3 months severance, as well as service charge for those months (i worked in the hotel industry). (initially i got my dates wrong, thats the reason for the error)

the hotel i was working for are arguing that my contract was for one year (it was not a 'special project' and was part of the every day running of the hotel) and as it was a fixed term, then i am entitled to nothing. it is clearly stated in the contract that if either party chooses to terminate the contract, that 30 days notice would be given. this was never given, so i assumed that the contract would be continued.

anyway, the lawyer has sent some docs to the hotel and i am waiting on their response.

i do not want to screw the hotel and i do not feel bitter towards anyone there. i just want what i am legally entitled to. below is some info i found on thai labour law which is pretty straight forward:

Termination and Severance

An employee normally must be given notice of termination at least one pay period or one month in advance of termination, whichever is shorter. This notice period does not apply to employees being terminated for cause.

"Cause" includes:

1. dishonest performance of duties or an intentional criminal offense against the employer;

2. intentionally causing harm to the employer;

3. violating work rules or orders of the employer for which a written warning has previously been issued to the employee (serious violations might not require a warning);

4. neglecting the employee's duties for three consecutive working days without justifiable cause;

5. gross negligence causing serious harm to the employer;

6. being sentenced to imprisonment.

Except in cases in which the termination is "for cause" as described immediately above, a full-time employee who is terminated by an employer must be paid severance pay as follows:

Period of Employment Amount of Severance Pay

More than 120 days but less than 1 year 30 days wages or salary

At least 1 year but less than 3 years 90 days wages or salary

At least 3 years but less than 6 years 180 days wages or salary

At least 6 years but less than 10 years 240 days wages or salary

At least 10 years 300 days wages or salary

Employees for a fixed duration do not qualify for severance. Under the Labor Protection Act, such employees must have a written contract of not more than two years duration. Work qualifying for such a contract must be a special project not in the normal course of the employer's business, or must be for temporary or seasonal employment.

Do NOT take no for an answer donna. You are entitled to severance pay and a month's notice. The severance depends on how long you have been working for that employer as you already know.

The fact that it was a fixed term contract is irrelevant despite what they say. Talk to a lawyer such as sunbelt and don't for a second think you are screwing the hotel; quite the reverse, that is exactly what they are trying to do to you.

[LaReina]

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.. but Thai labour laws are very strict and tend to err towards the employee.

In addition to severance pay, the company may also be responsible for the relocation of the foreign worker to his native country even if they were not the company that brought him to thailand.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this by chance?

[taxin]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

[bendix]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

Yes,of course.

[Oleg_Rus]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

No contract - no job, right? And to confirm that you were actually working w/o contract means you've been working illegally, hence claiming your compensation is aknowledgement of the crime against present labor law.

So to speak, say thank you and hit the door. next time get a written contract.

Hey bendix, what is this riddle :

>>work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

hm... HR ? PR ? HZ ?

makes me curious

[bendix]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

No contract - no job, right? And to confirm that you were actually working w/o contract means you've been working illegally, hence claiming your compensation is aknowledgement of the crime against present labor law.

So to speak, say thank you and hit the door. next time get a written contract.

Hey bendix, what is this riddle :

>>work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

hm... HR ? PR ? HZ ?

makes me curious

Having no formal contract doesn't necessarily mean you're working illegally, so long as you have a work permit. I'm sure noone working without a work permit would be stupid enough to assume they can claim severance. I could be wrong.

Why curious about a management role in a lawfirm? While I accept I'm fascinating, I wouldn't recommend anyone losing sleep over how I make a crust.

[Crossy]

The fact that it was a fixed term contract is irrelevant despite what they say. Talk to a lawyer such as sunbelt and don't for a second think you are screwing the hotel; quite the reverse, that is exactly what they are trying to do to you.

Absolutely, my boss got caught with this one (although the employees were Thai). He assumed that, like the UK, a short contract (2x6 months) did not require severence upon completion.

[taxin]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

No contract - no job, right? And to confirm that you were actually working w/o contract means you've been working illegally, hence claiming your compensation is aknowledgement of the crime against present labor law.

So to speak, say thank you and hit the door. next time get a written contract.

Hey bendix, what is this riddle :

>>work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

hm... HR ? PR ? HZ ?

makes me curious

Having no formal contract doesn't necessarily mean you're working illegally, so long as you have a work permit. I'm sure noone working without a work permit would be stupid enough to assume they can claim severance. I could be wrong.

Why curious about a management role in a lawfirm? While I accept I'm fascinating, I wouldn't recommend anyone losing sleep over how I make a crust.

Thanks but my question was not if it was legal or not to work without a contract, im fully aware that it is legal. As Bendix says, if you have the correct visa, have a work permit and pay tax then you are legal.

Bendix, my feeling is if there is no contract neither party (both employee or employer) is protected under Thai law for any dispute that arises ? Kind of a simple open & shut case ?

[singa-traz]

...

Thanks but my question was not if it was legal or not to work without a contract, im fully aware that it is legal. As Bendix says, if you have the correct visa, have a work permit and pay tax then you are legal.

Bendix, my feeling is if there is no contract neither party (both employee or employer) is protected under Thai law for any dispute that arises ? Kind of a simple open & shut case ?

I was surprise to read previously on this forum (Search ???), that even without the proper paperwork, Thai Labour laws still apply.

But I'm not a lawyer and never had to deal with such situation.

[bendix]

Bendix, my feeling is if there is no contract neither party (both employee or employer) is protected under Thai law for any dispute that arises ? Kind of a simple open & shut case ?

Look, I'm no expert on this so suggest you get proper legal advice, but I think your feeling is wrong. Thai labour law - with its inherent protections and responsbilities for both parties - applies to and overrides contracts. A contract can be drafted and accepted, but it can be overturned and deemed illegal if it doesnt comply with labour law.

So far from not protecting either party, they do just that, regardless of whether a contract exists or not.

Forget your employment contract or lack of it. It's irrelevant.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Agree. The reason for the strength of these laws is that if they were not strong, it would be a great temptation for many employers to hire so-called "temporary" contract labour for their core business year-in and year-out and never be subject to any long-term obligations to employees. And if they were exempted on the basis of not having legal contracts with their employees, they would do it that way- it would still ultimately work in their financial favour.

This is one of the reasons that schools like high turnover in their foreign employees- it costs them less in terms of severance later (because few employees will sue over a month's severance when the school throws them away).

"Steven"

[bendix]

just another point on this, because i think this is a really important issue for foreigners.

Even if you are an expat, reporting into a boss overseas but just happen to be located in Thailand, you are still covered by Thai Labour Law.

When i arrived here I was transferred from Sydney. I made sure my Australia time was included in and added to my tenure, for JUST this reason.

I'm on a rolling contract and have been for nearly five years. It's nice to know that if they ever wanted to end it unilaterally I would be entitled currently to six months severance payment. One more year and it would be nine months.

One thing I am not sure of is the tax situation of severance. In Australia, for example, it's tax-free. I'm not sure what the deal is here.

Edited July 6, 2007 by bendix

[donna]

Do NOT take no for an answer donna. You are entitled to severance pay and a month's notice. The severance depends on how long you have been working for that employer as you already know.

The fact that it was a fixed term contract is irrelevant despite what they say. Talk to a lawyer such as sunbelt and don't for a second think you are screwing the hotel; quite the reverse, that is exactly what they are trying to do to you.

thanks bendix. i have contacted a lawyer in bangkok and he has ems'd some documents down to the hotel. the hotel then have to send the docs to the owning company in singapore. i expect that this will take some time, but the hotel is quite clearly in breach of thai law so they will have to pay up.

i hope it doesnt take too long though. if they want to play hard, i will play harder. i am not letting them get away with not paying me what i am entitled to.

[geronimo]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

No contract - no job, right? And to confirm that you were actually working w/o contract means you've been working illegally, hence claiming your compensation is aknowledgement of the crime against present labor law.

So to speak, say thank you and hit the door. next time get a written contract.

Hey bendix, what is this riddle :

>>work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

hm... HR ? PR ? HZ ?

makes me curious

Having no formal contract doesn't necessarily mean you're working illegally, so long as you have a work permit. I'm sure noone working without a work permit would be stupid enough to assume they can claim severance. I could be wrong.

Why curious about a management role in a lawfirm? While I accept I'm fascinating, I wouldn't recommend anyone losing sleep over how I make a crust.

I won a dismissal case without a work permit. I just told the judge I repeatedly asked for one. It wasn't held against me and the judge blasted my employer for failing to do that.

[taxin]

Do NOT take no for an answer donna. You are entitled to severance pay and a month's notice. The severance depends on how long you have been working for that employer as you already know.

The fact that it was a fixed term contract is irrelevant despite what they say. Talk to a lawyer such as sunbelt and don't for a second think you are screwing the hotel; quite the reverse, that is exactly what they are trying to do to you.

thanks bendix. i have contacted a lawyer in bangkok and he has ems'd some documents down to the hotel. the hotel then have to send the docs to the owning company in singapore. i expect that this will take some time, but the hotel is quite clearly in breach of thai law so they will have to pay up.

i hope it doesnt take too long though. if they want to play hard, i will play harder. i am not letting them get away with not paying me what i am entitled to.

Gee' Donna, at least I know not to employ you when I start my business, sounds like you could be a nightmare !

he he... Only joking, hope you get what you want

[donna]

thanks taxin. no, im not a nightmare at all. i am a loyal employee and a hard worker who would never shaft my boss like they have shafted me. abide by the law and you will have no problem. break the law (both legally and morally) and you have to pay the price unfortunately.

[taxin]

thanks taxin. no, im not a nightmare at all. i am a loyal employee and a hard worker who would never shaft my boss like they have shafted me. abide by the law and you will have no problem. break the law (both legally and morally) and you have to pay the price unfortunately.

In what way did they shaft you Donna ? Apart from them simply asking you not to come into work the next day.

Im guessing from the way you speak there was a little more to it ?

[bendix]

Have you read the thread taxin. They shafted her by hiding behind the fact that donna was on a fixed term contract to not only give her notice but also to avoid severance payments. I imagine they knowingly used a fixed term contract, assuming donna would not know her rights in this instance. Both actions are illegal as per the Labour Protection Law and the Civil and Commercial Code.

[donna]

there is no more to it, taxin. what you read is exactly what happened. i was praised by my bosses and told i was an asset to the company blah blah. then they decided that i was too expensive and told me that they would not require my services any longer. they then tried to get away with SAYING they would pay me 1 month as a good will gesture but have, in fact, not paid anything to me other than the salary owing to me up until the day i finished work.

i am waiting for the money owing to me.

quite simple really.

[quiksilva]

Go get em Donna, I agree with Bendix. The Thai courts are definitely on the side of the employee, regardless of whether you are a local or not. Stick to your guns!

[freespace]

I have a question too.

What if a farang was shown the door from his employer but the farang did not have a contract with them ?

Would he be still liable for severance compensation ?

No contract - no job, right? And to confirm that you were actually working w/o contract means you've been working illegally, hence claiming your compensation is aknowledgement of the crime against present labor law.

So to speak, say thank you and hit the door. next time get a written contract.

Hey bendix, what is this riddle :

>>work in management for an international law firm, but I'm not a lawyer.

hm... HR ? PR ? HZ ?

makes me curious

Having no formal contract doesn't necessarily mean you're working illegally, so long as you have a work permit. I'm sure noone working without a work permit would be stupid enough to assume they can claim severance. I could be wrong.

Why curious about a management role in a lawfirm? While I accept I'm fascinating, I wouldn't recommend anyone losing sleep over how I make a crust.

I won a dismissal case without a work permit. I just told the judge I repeatedly asked for one. It wasn't held against me and the judge blasted my employer for failing to do that.

Did this not require any type of documentation on your part regarding your prepeated requests? Very interesting...

[raybkk]

Do NOT take no for an answer donna. You are entitled to severance pay and a month's notice. The severance depends on how long you have been working for that employer as you already know.

The fact that it was a fixed term contract is irrelevant despite what they say. Talk to a lawyer such as sunbelt and don't for a second think you are screwing the hotel; quite the reverse, that is exactly what they are trying to do to you.

thanks bendix. i have contacted a lawyer in bangkok and he has ems'd some documents down to the hotel. the hotel then have to send the docs to the owning company in singapore. i expect that this will take some time, but the hotel is quite clearly in breach of thai law so they will have to pay up.

i hope it doesnt take too long though. if they want to play hard, i will play harder. i am not letting them get away with not paying me what i am entitled to.

Just go to the Labout Court on Rama4. They have advisors for free and handle all the paperwork! When the Hotel receives a letter from them it will all go very very fast.

[Oleg_Rus]

Just go to the Labout Court on Rama4. They have advisors for free and handle all the paperwork! When the Hotel receives a letter from them it will all go very very fast.

Great idea! don't use blood s**kin' lawyers, Ray just gave the right answer for your problem.

Many things can be done faster and cheaper here if you do them on your own. Good luck and keep posted.