Is Thai a difficult language to understand?

[thailandsgreat]

33 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Do you know all these languages well enough?

I know only 3 of them,  and beg to differ.

Yes. Sounds very stilted, even fake, though.

Like I don't know any native speaker of English who uses RP in daily life.

E.g. standard Chinese is standard. But mostly we are just improvising based on personal experience now. Let's see if we can find some definition of standard Thai. My own experience in Thai is not enough for that. Let's see if we can find how Thai teachers speak etc ... Regional/social influence etc. Can most educated Thai switch into "standard" pronounciation etc

 

Sorry, a little busy right now. I will try to come back later.

 

For the time being I am happy I made a break with the course I had followed for thousands of sentences. The difference between Paiboon/Google pronounciation and the course became bigger and bigger and learning was ineffecient since I didn't distinguish words I had studied. I might go back later. Now I listen to other material with "standard" pronounciation for a while. Interviews and newscasts are a little above my level but the pronounciation is often "standard", at least to my not so trained ear. I may switch back later if I have time to improve and widen my references for "dialects". The only change inevitable seems to be that "a" goes to "e" (before "i"?).

Edited April 27, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[ozimoron]

Thai is easy because they don't conjugate verbs.

[asf6]

4 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

The only change inevitable seems to be that "a" goes to "e" (before "i"?).

Which Thai vowels are you specifically referring to? Can you type them (in Thai) into a post, please? 

[thailandsgreat]

42 minutes ago, asf6 said:

Which Thai vowels are you specifically referring to? Can you type them (in Thai) into a post, please? 

My level of Thai is low, but when I hear "educated" speakers in TV they sound like Google translate or Paiboon dictionary, which also correspond to Paiboon phonetic writing. But one thing is sometimes different, to my untrained ear, this vowel goes "from a to e":

 

ไม่

 

Not English "e" but  more like

เ-  or   แ-

 

- Can you come?

- mei daai.

 

(meaning and pronounciation remind of Chinese ???? 没, but tones differ)

Edited April 27, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[asf6]

 

28 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

ไม่

 

Not English "e" but  more like

เ-  or   แ-

 

- Can you come?

- mei daai.

 

I typically hear ไ pronounced as the English sound made by the letters i and y (as pronounced in the English words: die, tie, cry, by, my, etc) but I have occasionally heard it as you have in the example you gave. 

[thailandsgreat]

I keep exploring this subject that others surely know better. There are four dialects of Thai, but these use different words. The shifts in pronounciation I have been referring to are probably all variations within the "pasa glaang" dialect

 

 

[somtamguy]

TBH I think you may be concentrating way too much on different pronunciation between native speakers. This is something you can maybe start to focus on once you get to the higher intermediate/advanced levels. But right now it looks like you need to spend A LOT more time on listening practice, and also speaking practice. Thai is hard to understand as a beginner, which is pretty much the level you're at. But once you get to the higher levels it becomes a lot easier, and sometimes feels completely natural to someone who has achieved that high level. 

You seem to be getting way too bogged down in linguistic questions, when your time would be way better spent on doing anywhere between 1-5 hours per day of listening practice for around 1-2 years, every single day. Unless of course your goal is to understand the absolute nuts and bolts of the language, then that is ok. But if your goal is to UNDERSTAND native speakers comfortably, you are going to have to put in a lot more time improving your listening comprehension (and of course, speaking and reading). 

[thailandsgreat]

1 hour ago, somtamguy said:

TBH I think you may be concentrating way too much on different pronunciation between native speakers. This is something you can maybe start to focus on once you get to the higher intermediate/advanced levels. But right now it looks like you need to spend A LOT more time on listening practice, and also speaking practice. Thai is hard to understand as a beginner, which is pretty much the level you're at. But once you get to the higher levels it becomes a lot easier, and sometimes feels completely natural to someone who has achieved that high level. 

You seem to be getting way too bogged down in linguistic questions, when your time would be way better spent on doing anywhere between 1-5 hours per day of listening practice for around 1-2 years, every single day. Unless of course your goal is to understand the absolute nuts and bolts of the language, then that is ok. But if your goal is to UNDERSTAND native speakers comfortably, you are going to have to put in a lot more time improving your listening comprehension (and of course, speaking and reading). 

I think it is up to every student to dedicate his or her time as he/she pleases. We haven't come further on dialects. There are big differences. Many speakers on TV use a pronounciation I understand (except for my lack of vocab) but with some I don't understand at all. It would be interesting to know why. What are the differences, who speaks like this or that. Even the course I did a while ago went into pronounciation that was very different from "Paiboon and Google translate" as the levels went up.

Edited April 28, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[somtamguy]

13 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

I think it is up to every student to dedicate his or her time as he/she pleases. We haven't come further on dialects. There are big differences. Many speakers on TV use a pronounciation I understand (except for my lack of vocab) but with some I don't understand at all. It would be interesting to know why. What are the differences, who speak like this or that. Even the course I did a while ago went into pronounciation that was very different from "Paiboon and Google translate" as the levels went up.

Just giving you some advice, because I see you have made three posts on this forum since 2019 asking people on here about how to improve listening comprehension, because you said, in your own words, that your "listening comprehension is poor". 

All i'm saying is, from someone who is now able to understand native speakers in most situations (both in formal and informal situations), you need to spend a LOT more time doing listening practice. There is a clear correlation between a foreigner's level of listening comprehension of Thai and the amount of total hours they've put in doing listening practice. You don't have to take my advice, because it doesn't matter to me if you want to strictly study the different variations of Thai native speaker pronunciation. But you're asking for advice on here from experienced Thai language learners about how to improve. If you want to get good at listening you will have to put in a lot more work doing listening practice.

Like I already mentioned - somewhere between 1-3 (or even more is optimal) every single day for approximately the next 1-2 years. You'll see a huge jump in your listening comprehension. If you don't want to do that, then it doesn't bother me at all. But your listening skills will most likely stagnate over the next few years or maybe only slightly improve if you don't focus on listening to native speakers (on Youtube and in real life) on a daily basis.

Good luck!

Edited April 28, 2023 by somtamguy

[thailandsgreat]

6 minutes ago, somtamguy said:

Just giving you some advice, because I see you have made three posts since 2019 asking for advice on from people on here about how to improve listening comprehension, because you said in your own words that your "listening comprehension is poor". 

All i'm saying is, from someone who is now able to understand native speakers in most situations (both in formal and informal situations), you need to spend a LOT more time doing listening practice. There is a clear correlation between your level of listening comprehension and the amount of total hours you've put in doing listening practice. You don't have to take my advice, because it doesn't matter to me if you want to strictly study the different variations of Thai native speaker pronunciation. But you're asking for advice on here from experience Thai language learners. If you want to get good at listening you will have to put in a lot more work doing listening practice.

Like I already mentioned - somewhere between 1-3 (or even more is optimal) every single day for approximately the next 1-2 years. You'll see a huge jump in your listening comprehension. If you don't want to do that, then it doesn't bother me at all. But your listening skills will most likely stagnate over the next few years.

Good luck!

Of course I should listen to Thai to improve listening. That's what I am doing. I just want to know more about in which ways Thai (pasa glang) is pronounced. Differences are really big. For the moment, when I listen to TV many speakers speak like "Paiboon and Google Translate" I focus on these to "get into the language". Would be interesting to know more about how this can vary. (I haven't had the opportunity to study for a couple of years now and I am picking it up again. I forgot a lot but fortunately also remember some and can refresh some more quickly.)

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[thailandsgreat]

I think I'll stick to this course for a while. The pronounciation is easy to understand since it is close to Paiboon dictionary and Google translate (which is synthetic, of course)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cvp730jovzc2q9f/Thaiex 008.m4a?dl=0

 

I haven't searched for "standard Thai" but so far this is my working definition. Many people on TV speak like this. Of course one should gradually get used to hearing differenct dialects but learning different dialects at the same time is not always the best way to learn.

 

It would be interesting to hear what experienced Thai speakers have to say about dialects of pasa glang and how they differ.

 

Is the dialect in the link what school teachers usually speak and what people often hear on TV and therefore can speak if they wish?

 

...

 

One deviation you sometimes hear is that จ  becomes "ts". The first times I heard Thai people saying "bicycle" in Thai I had no clue.

Edited April 29, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[thailandsgreat]

Here "a" goes to "e" in my opinion "tuk-kon nei panɛk ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5nle5043an0qef/Thai ex 009.m4a?dl=0

 

Listening is tricky in Thai in my opinion. These guys speak super clearly but in this sentence I first hear "lao ja nai" instead of correctly "lɛɛo jao-naai ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xske0xhtkr2cln2/Thai ex 010.m4a?dl=0

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

Here "a" goes to "e" in my opinion "tuk-kon nei panɛk ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5nle5043an0qef/Thai ex 009.m4a?dl=0

 

Listening is tricky in Thai in my opinion. These guys speak super clearly but in this sentence I first hear "lao ja nai" instead of correctly "lɛɛo jao-naai ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xske0xhtkr2cln2/Thai ex 010.m4a?dl=0

Spend less time on finding the perfect transliteration and more time on learning to read Thai.

[thailandsgreat]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Spend less time on finding the perfect transliteration and more time on learning to read Thai.

Please let me ask the questions I like in this thread! I am not asking for a study plan. I study the way I please ????

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, thailandsgreat said:

Please let me ask the questions I like in this thread! I am not asking for a study plan. I study the way I please ????

It's just advice, nobody is twisting your arm.

[KhaoNiaw]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:13 AM, thailandsgreat said:

I think I'll stick to this course for a while. The pronounciation is easy to understand since it is close to Paiboon dictionary and Google translate (which is synthetic, of course)

 

Of course one should gradually get used to hearing differenct dialects but learning different dialects at the same time is not always the best way to learn.

 

It would be interesting to hear what experienced Thai speakers have to say about dialects of pasa glang and how they differ.

 

Is the dialect in the link what school teachers usually speak and what people often hear on TV and therefore can speak if they wish?

I think you're talking about accent rather than dialect. If you really want to distinguish between the more formal taught Thai and everyday spoken pronunciation, you should do a lot of messaging. In text messages they tend to spell following normal pronunciation. So my friends often type มั้ย instead of ไหม. Years ago, when my daughter was a kid, she used to buy those comic/cartoon books that Thais love (not sure if they still sell them these days) and they did the same thing in the speech bubbles. Quite interesting to see the differences written down.   

[thailandsgreat]

8 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

I think you're talking about accent rather than dialect. If you really want to distinguish between the more formal taught Thai and everyday spoken pronunciation, you should do a lot of messaging. In text messages they tend to spell following normal pronunciation. So my friends often type มั้ย instead of ไหม. Years ago, when my daughter was a kid, she used to buy those comic/cartoon books that Thais love (not sure if they still sell them these days) and they did the same thing in the speech bubbles. Quite interesting to see the differences written down.   

I naturally don't always distinguish the difference between a high and a rising tone. This is what Paiboon dictionary says:

 

 

มั้ย

to form a question; short form of ไหม

 

 

[Lorry]

9 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

Here "a" goes to "e" in my opinion "tuk-kon nei panɛk ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5nle5043an0qef/Thai ex 009.m4a?dl=0

 

Listening is tricky in Thai in my opinion. These guys speak super clearly but in this sentence I first hear "lao ja nai" instead of correctly "lɛɛo jao-naai ..."

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xske0xhtkr2cln2/Thai ex 010.m4a?dl=0

You are a good listener,  paying attention to details.

 

lao: this is called assimilation, sounds tend to become more similar to neighboring sounds.  To get from a to o, the mouth doesn't have to move as much as if it were from ɛ to o. That's why lɛɛo becomes lao.

 

ja nai: listen at half speed,  the o in jao is there,  it's just very short and weak.  The mouth doesn't move from a to a very clear o with rounded lips, but it does move a bit.

 

nei: assimilation again. The distance your jaws have to move from a to i is much farther than the one from e to i.    ai becomes ei like in ไม่, which really sounds like Mandarin 没 (you mentioned that earlier). But there is a difference: in Mandarin, you can say a very pronounced, slow and clear 没 and it still sounds like mei. You cannot do this with ไม่ - it's only mei when spoken fast.

[GammaGlobulin]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:40 PM, GinBoy2 said:

It depends where you are coming from.

 

Tonal languages are hard for most non tonal speakers to master.

 

I learnt Mandarin over 30 years ago so I crossed that bridge a long time before I got to Thai and Lao.

 

Once you have mastered one tonal language the rest come pretty easy.

 

Reading Thai is easy, unlike Mandarin which I really struggled with.

 

But you'll need to put in the work to overcome the tonal thing, won't say it's easy, but it'll just click one day

Reading Chinese logograms is, for me, much easier than reading Thai script, due to vowels and consonants that change in sound and meaning according to context and placement.

 

I learned Mandarin, written Chinese, reading Chinese, and spoken Chinese, beginning in 1975. I still use my Chinese reading and speaking skills on a daily basis.

Thai script is very difficult, still.

 

 

[GinBoy2]

6 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Reading Chinese logograms is, for me, much easier than reading Thai script, due to vowels and consonants that change in sound and meaning according to context and placement.

 

I learned Mandarin, written Chinese, reading Chinese, and spoken Chinese, beginning in 1975. I still use my Chinese reading and speaking skills on a daily basis.

Thai script is very difficult, still.

 

 

Did you learn simplified or traditional?

 

I learnt Mandarin while I was living in Taiwan, so went down the traditional route. 

 

With hindsight I wish I had tried simplified, although having said that I now find comprehending simplified text much harder due to the lack of characters.

It becomes a little guessing game more often than not

[GammaGlobulin]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Did you learn simplified or traditional?

 

I learnt Mandarin while I was living in Taiwan, so went down the traditional route. 

 

With hindsight I wish I had tried simplified, although having said that I now find comprehending simplified text much harder due to the lack of characters.

It becomes a little guessing game more often than not

I began Chinese classes at PENN in 1974 where, at that time, 繁體字／繁体字, traditional characters were being taught to the intensive Mandarin students, primarily. Also, at that time, 簡體字／简体字, simplified characters were just being introduced to the Chinese language program, but exams were still given based on understanding of traditional characters.

 

In Taiwan, of course, all instruction at ShiFan Daxue language center was conducted using traditional characters.

 

Then, much later, I attended Sichuan Daxue language center in ChengDu, where I began reading simplified character Chinese text.  I hate simplified characters because they are more difficult to discriminate, and not much more difficult to write.  So, traditional characters are still better, but then, what would you expect from Commies that care nothing about the scientific method, and ONLY care about ideology.

 

I now use exclusively simplified because this is what I use on a daily basis...

 

 

[GinBoy2]

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I began Chinese classes at PENN in 1974 where, at that time, 繁體字／繁体字, traditional characters were being taught to the intensive Mandarin students, primarily. Also, at that time, 簡體字／简体字, simplified characters were just being introduced to the Chinese language program, but exams were still given based on understanding of traditional characters.

 

In Taiwan, of course, all instruction at ShiFan Daxue language center was conducted using traditional characters.

 

Then, much later, I attended Sichuan Daxue language center in ChengDu, where I began reading simplified character Chinese text.  I hate simplified characters because they are more difficult to discriminate, and not much more difficult to write.  So, traditional characters are still better, but then, what would you expect from Commies that care nothing about the scientific method, and ONLY care about ideology.

 

I now use exclusively simplified because this is what I use on a daily basis...

 

 

Maybe I'm just too lazy nowadays to even bother with simplified.

 

I can read to an adequate level in traditional, enough that I can read a Taiwanese newspaper.

 

I'm not really interested in reading much from the mainland anymore, because it basically propaganda, so simplified doesn't really interest me now.

 

As for your comment about reading Thai, that baffles me.

 

Reading Thai is easy compared to Mandarin, it's a cipher not dissimilar to western languages

[GammaGlobulin]

10 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

As for your comment about reading Thai, that baffles me.

Let's not worry about it.

It's just an hypothesis of mine, long held.

As such it requires testing in order to validate it.

 

Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the financial resources to do so.

 

Concerning traditional and simplified Chinese characters, and reading speed:

This is my second hypothesis that since the traditional characters are more complex compared to simplified characters, then traditional characters are much more easy to discriminate, i.e., there are more visual cues to quickly help the reader discriminate one traditional character from another traditional character.  And that, since this is true, reading speed increases due to this effect.

 

Again, I do not have the financial resources nor the time to run a trial to verify this.

The lousy Commies never took this factor into account when they simplified the characters in order to increase literacy rate in China.

They should have tested their hypothesis, which I believe is erroneous, before putting the world through this crazy experiment of Chinese-character simplification.

 

If you have the money, I would be happy to work with you on such a project to prove the Commies WRONG!