Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[BAF]

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

There are very good reasons (reply to the points A, B and C and you may see them by yourself) for which tourist visas are easier to come by for a 1st world country's citizen than for a 3rd world military junta country's citizen...

Life isn't fair, is it? Well, I don't say it is but excuse me if I believe it should be and we should do what we can to make it fairer or as fair as possible. BUT, there is nothing we can do to change Thai immigration law so there is no point getting your knickers in a twist over it, right?

WRONG, there IS something we can do. And whenever that's been applied it's been proven it works.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?

[Richard-BKK]

Maybe this Thai men who stand outside in the poring rain have to quite smoking, then they can stand inside like the rest of us......

[vermin on arrival]

BAF,

I think you make a lot of good points and agree with you.

[TheChiefJustice]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

[astral]

Interesting point.

Not directly related to Thai visas.

Therefore moved to General section

[chanchao]

Allow me a pretty general yawn then.

[BAF]

Maybe this Thai men who stand outside in the poring rain have to quite smoking, then they can stand inside like the rest of us......

Well, that's all dbrenn could came up with to make the Thais appear like poor victims: "queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa", as if it's something unique to Thais dealing with Western embassies and never mind that, for example, the visa section's waiting area of the Italian Embassy in Bangkok is thrice the size of the visa section's waiting area of the Thai Embassy in Rome...

In that other thread I didn't want to sound like I was ranting and have my post deleted so I ignored dbrenn's "poetic license" but still... LOL!

BAF,

I think you make a lot of good points and agree with you.

TNX voa

[BAF]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

Allow me a pretty general yawn then.

As usual, that's all the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade can produce.

[LaReina]

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

[mellow1]

"Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire".

Couldn't agree with you more.Charge Thai exports the same tariff, as to what they charge the West.

Make Thais keep 400,000 to 800,000Baht in the foreign bank and show proper monthly income from Thailand.

Make sure they can properly support the people they stay with, in the foreign country of their choice.

Let them make homes and then don't allow them to own them.

Let them make businesses with their money and know how,but let them own only 49% or put them in prisons.

If anything bad happens,blame it on them.

If they need anything,tell them you don't know.

If anything bad happens to them just say maybelie.

In court or other law disputes,they should always be found guilty,because their Thai.

If there is a misunderstanding between a Thai and a Farang.The Farang should pull out a gun or if theres none available,all the farangs in the vicinity should beat the shit out of him.

They should be charged more than everyone else because their Thai.

Should be ripped off as much as possible cause their Thai.

Never be given citizenship,if they wanted it.

Cannot own land.

You should snicker or laugh with the person next to you,when a Thai tries to communicate with you.

When they ask for directions,point them the opposite way.

These are examples of how their stay can be more pleasant after they get the Visas,and create good public relations.

I am trying to figure out what the about face is your talking about.

PS: I wouldn't do any of the above(except the tariff part) I'm bored and playing with this thread.Hope The OP doesn't mind.

[samran]

I will close this thread if it turns into a Thai bashing thread. Especially posts like mellow1's.

You have been officially warned.

[steveromagnino]

"Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire".

I hope so.

Your impressive intellect suggests you are, in fact, right on the verge of discovering fire.

Hint: it is hot and orangey red in colour. Keep rubbing those sticks Mellow, you'll get there eventually.

[BAF]

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

Yes, yours is a perfect example.

In 1920 the US started to ask a $10 visa fee from each and every foreigner wanting to visit the USA (it wasn't just a thing with Italy, it was unrelated to overstayers and the Vatican had no role). Their move was in retaliation of other govts' visa fees and the US hadn't been asking, up to that time, any visa fee.

Many foreign governments unjustly hit by the $10 fee quickly retaliated themselves and the end result was the visa free agreement with Germany, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan and Russia, a reduced fee (from $1 to $4) for France, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia, Austria, Chile and Spain, a reduced fee of $6 for Turkey and the $10 fee for the rest of them.

So the system quickly found a balance and fee were abolished for those countries not taxing American tourists and reduced to levels corresponding to those of the other countries still doing so.

[samran]

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

Yes, yours is a perfect example.

In 1920 the US started to ask a $10 visa fee from each and every foreigner wanting to visit the USA (it wasn't just a thing with Italy, it was unrelated to overstayers and the Vatican had no role). Their move was in retaliation of other govts' visa fees and the US hadn't been asking, up to that time, any visa fee.

Many foreign governments unjustly hit by the $10 fee quickly retaliated themselves and the end result was the visa free agreement with Germany, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan and Russia, a reduced fee (from $1 to $4) for France, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia, Austria, Chile and Spain, a reduced fee of $6 for Turkey and the $10 fee for the rest of them.

So the system quickly found a balance and fee were abolished for those countries not taxing American tourists and reduced to levels corresponding to those of the other countries still doing so.

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

[BAF]

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost out about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

For the same reasons for which we are not retaliating Thai immigration laws..?

Anyway, the ETA visa is recognized as equivalent to visa free by the US and the EU since it's "automatically" granted to us and the AU$20 is the processing fee asked by the official Aussie website not the cost of the visa. Besides the official website, also travel agencies and airlines can issue ETA visas and each of them can ask for whatever processing fee they like or not charge anything at all (they don't have anything to pay to the OZ govt). With some of them Aussie visas are in fact free.

So, as an Italian a 3 months stay in Australia visa-wise costs me: AU$ 20 to AU$0 - EUR 12,5 to EUR 0 - THB 540 to THB 0

A 3 months stay in Thailand visa-wise costs me: AU$ 125,5 - EUR 79 - THB 3400 (which are the costs of the EUR 35 the Thai embassy in Rome charges for single entry tourist visas + the THB 1900 extension. And this is not counting the hassles and inconvenience of getting the extension itself).

So even if I had (stupidity, ignorance, laziness, urgency) to pay the full processing fee for the online OZ visa, an equivalent Thai visa (for which I still have to go twice to the Thai embassy in Rome and twice to an Immigration office in Thailand) would cost me almost seven times as much.

That must be why everyone hasn't retaliated against the Aussies...

Edited July 6, 2007 by BAF

[mellow1]

Personally I was being sarcastic to the thread in a manner of stating various things found in TV forum.These subjects can be found in the news clippings as well as the general threads,some are personal observations.

Either way I was not Thai bashing,and as I stated,I would not use these similar behaviors towards others be they Thai or Martians.

[BAF]

Personally I was being sarcastic to the thread in a manner of stating various things found in TV forum.These subjects can be found in the news clippings as well as the general threads,some are personal observations.

Either way I was not Thai bashing,and as I stated,I would not use these similar behaviors towards others be they Thai or Martians.

And you have even been so kind as to have the Thais keep in foreign banks just THB 400,000 to 800,000 when to really reciprocate their requirements we should make them keep in no interests deposits the equivalent of 50 to 100 times our homecountries' average monthly wages (AS THEY DO).

How does EUR 150,000 of Thai money in a no-interests EU bank account (for at least 3 months prior to application, of course) sound for a 1 year extension based on being married to a EU national?

How does EUR 300,000 of Thai money in a no-interests EU bank account (for at least 3 months prior to application, of course) sound for a 1 year extension for an over 50yo retired Thai?

[mellow1]

My impressive intellect has been warned.I cant play with you no more.

[BAF]

My impressive intellect has been warned.I cant play with you no more.

The smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade always wins.

[dbrenn]

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

Yes, yours is a perfect example.

In 1920 the US started to ask a $10 visa fee from each and every foreigner wanting to visit the USA (it wasn't just a thing with Italy, it was unrelated to overstayers and the Vatican had no role). Their move was in retaliation of other govts' visa fees and the US hadn't been asking, up to that time, any visa fee.

Many foreign governments unjustly hit by the $10 fee quickly retaliated themselves and the end result was the visa free agreement with Germany, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan and Russia, a reduced fee (from $1 to $4) for France, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia, Austria, Chile and Spain, a reduced fee of $6 for Turkey and the $10 fee for the rest of them.

So the system quickly found a balance and fee were abolished for those countries not taxing American tourists and reduced to levels corresponding to those of the other countries still doing so.

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

One other thing about Australia - it has a points system that disciminates on the grounds of:

1) Age - forget it if you are over 45. That's age related discrimination

2) Education - that's elitism

3) Work experience and profession - ditto 2) above

OK, Australia doesn't have a sexist policy (still got my PR there), but has a discriminatory line in a variety of other areas. Ditto for the US, EU & UK, I suppose. We could find areas of immigration policy somewhere that discriminate about something. Let's all waste valuable life harping on about it.

To be honest, I used to harp on too. But i did something about it, even though it may have cost me in other areas, like that fact that I didn't have the luxury to lounge around studying in Italy or any Western country for that matter, I persevered and proved that it is possible.

Cheers

[BAF]

One other thing about Australia - it has a points system that disciminates on the grounds of:

1) Age - forget it if you are over 45. That's age related discrimination

2) Education - that's elitism

3) Work experience and profession - ditto 2) above

OK, Australia doesn't have a sexist policy (still got my PR there), but has a discriminatory line in a variety of other areas. Ditto for the US, EU & UK, I suppose. We could find areas of immigration policy somewhere that discriminate about something. Let's all waste valuable life harping on about it.

To be honest, I used to harp on too. But i did something about it, even though it may have cost me in other areas, like that fact that I didn't have the luxury to lounge around studying in Italy or any Western country for that matter, I persevered and proved that it is possible.

Cheers

You are mixing the cards and talking about OZ PR here whereas samran was talking about OZ tourist visas. Then you rant on saying that's the same for the US, EU & UK, you suppose.

Well, guess what, it's the same in Thailand too (and everywhere else I can think of) with the added Thai bonuses of the "sexist policy" (different treatments for foreign males and foreign females provided the latter are married to Thai MEN) and the limit of just 100 PRs per nationality per year (and the ones actually granted are even less).

What you once again fail to take note of is that those requirements (age, education, work experience/profession) are overcome if you're applying as a spouse/child of an AU/US/EU/UK national on the basis of the basic human right of being able to live with one's family. This does NOT happen in Thailand.

I also see that you have no arguments to refute my answer to something YOU YOURSELF asked me on the other thread.

On the other thread your reply has been: "Please start your own thread and complain somewhere else instead of hijacking this one with all this silly ranting. Thought this group was supposed to be moderated." My silly rant got promptly deleted, I reposted it starting this thread, you come here, post, still no answer to those points...

Edited July 6, 2007 by BAF

[Old Croc]

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost out about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

For the same reasons for which we are not retaliating Thai immigration laws..?

Anyway, the ETA visa is recognized as equivalent to visa free by the US and the EU since it's "automatically" granted to us and the AU$20 is the processing fee asked by the official Aussie website not the cost of the visa. Besides the official website, also travel agencies and airlines can issue ETA visas and each of them can ask for whatever processing fee they like or not charge anything at all (they don't have anything to pay to the OZ govt). With some of them Aussie visas are in fact free.

Just to address a couple of things here:

NZ citizens do require a visa for Oz. A Special Category visa (subclass 444) is granted at the border on presentation of a valid NZ passport and completed pax card. Most are unaware they have been granted the visa. If they want PR they have to apply similarly to other applicants.

ETA visas are not completely automatic for the eligible countries. Anyone on warning lists will be refrerred to the embassy for a decision.

[BAF]

ETA visas are not completely automatic for the eligible countries. Anyone on warning lists will be refrerred to the embassy for a decision.

Yes, that's part of the reason why "automatically" was in quotes. Anyway, anyone (on or off warning/black lists) can still be denied entry into Australia and any other country by the immigration officers irrespective of whether they have visas or arrive on "visa waiver" (visa free) programs.

An important thing I forgot to mention as to why the US and the EU consider ETA visas as practically visa free equivalent is that we don't need to submit our passports to get ETA visas.

[OxfordWill]

When you put it that way, BAF, it really does seem unjust.

[BAF]

When you put it that way, BAF, it really does seem unjust.

To put it any other way you would have to alter the facts, hide the facts or the good old "making facts up". That's what the Thai apologists usually do.

That or focusing their attention on the poster instead of the post.

These are the exact same points which I have always been making and no one of them has ever managed to produce a solid hard facts based rebuttal. This thread is the umpteenth demonstration of that.

[Old Croc]

ETA visas are not completely automatic for the eligible countries. Anyone on warning lists will be refrerred to the embassy for a decision.

Yes, that's part of the reason why "automatically" was in quotes. Anyway, anyone (on or off warning/black lists) can still be denied entry into Australia and any other country by the immigration officers irrespective of whether they have visas or arrive on "visa waiver" (visa free) programs.

An important thing I forgot to mention as to why the US and the EU consider ETA visas as practically visa free equivalent is that we don't need to submit our passports to get ETA visas.

As ETAs are just that, electronic, it is not neccessary to place physical evidence in a passport. However, the ETA is linked to passport number and the visa shouldn't be issued without checking the clients passport as a clerical error could result in refusal of uplift. Agencies that grant ETAs should be giving their clients a handout outlining the conditions of the visa.

I can see how people may believe it is visa free. Incidentally, the ETA facility is available to many more countries than the just the US and EU.

In fact, all Australian visas are granted, paid on arrival, and even cancelled, electronically. The label placed in a passport isn't the visa, just evidence of the existance of one for the convenience of the passport holder.

This means nobody can forge a visa label anymore and expect to get on the plane let alone gain entry to Oz. Many Bangkok visa forgers had to move to other fields of endevour when computors took over the visa issue process.

[OxfordWill]

When you put it that way, BAF, it really does seem unjust.

To put it any other way you would have to alter the facts, hide the facts or the good old "making facts up". That's what the Thai apologists usually do.

That or focusing their attention on the poster instead of the post.

These are the exact same points which I have always been making and no one of them has ever managed to produce a solid hard facts based rebuttal. This thread is the umpteenth demonstration of that.

Well that's clearly because you are right, and are conveying facts of the matter. However it is probable that you are interpreted as implying that from these facts one can derive some sort of "ought" about the situation. I.e. "This is not an egalitarian setup, ergo Thailand is shit." As you already know, it is not OK to use these facts as a criticism of Thailand unless one assumes that all things ought to be equal, always. I personally see more reasons why Thailand ought to (and does well out of) make these things as financially rewarding for Thailand as possible.

[BAF]

Can't see what's so interesting about ETA visas anyway here we go:

As ETAs are just that, electronic, it is not neccessary to place physical evidence in a passport. However, the ETA is linked to passport number and the visa shouldn't be issued without checking the clients passport as a clerical error could result in refusal of uplift. Agencies that grant ETAs should be giving their clients a handout outlining the conditions of the visa.

I can get ETA visas online (which even is the "most official" way) and there would be no one to check my passport (I will just have to enter my passport # etc).

As long as you are not on a warning/black list (in which case you would be stopped at the border even with a visa) you WILL get your ETA visa. No govt official will scan your passport looking for old stamps, overstays, other countries you have been in, for what (type of previous visas), for how long etc

I can see how people may believe it is visa free.

I don't know if and how many people believe Australia is "visa free", probably some of the ones whose travel agency/airline has "quietly" sorted the ETA visa for them.

My reference was about US and EU authorities deeming the Australian ETA visa equivalent, for all practical purposes, to the "visa free" status given by the US and the EU to visiting AU citizens.

Incidentally, the ETA facility is available to many more countries than the just the US and EU.

Yes and so does the reasoning I've applied to the US and the EU (which I picked up as examples).

In fact, all Australian visas are granted, paid on arrival, and even cancelled, electronically. The label placed in a passport isn't the visa, just evidence of the existance of one for the convenience of the passport holder.

This means nobody can forge a visa label anymore and expect to get on the plane let alone gain entry to Oz. Many Bangkok visa forgers had to move to other fields of endevour when computors took over the visa issue process.

Yes great things they are but I hope we are done with them in this thread

Edited July 7, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

Well that's clearly because you are right, and are conveying facts of the matter. However it is probable that you are interpreted as implying that from these facts one can derive some sort of "ought" about the situation. I.e. "This is not an egalitarian setup, ergo Thailand is shit."

"Interpretations" and "deductions" (as opposed to sticking to the hard facts) are what Thai apologists do best...

What I clearly say is "This is not an egalitarian setup, ergo let's make something about it instead of self-deludingly droning on about how great, smiling, friendly, loving, caring Thais and Thailand are".

The history of international relations shows that something CAN be done but the first step in solving this problem (ANY problem) is realizing there is a problem.

I do my best to do that, the Thai apologists, with their thousands posts each, do their best to deny the problem and practically help worsening it.

As you already know, it is not OK to use these facts as a criticism of Thailand unless one assumes that all things ought to be equal, always. I personally see more reasons why Thailand ought to (and does well out of) make these things as financially rewarding for Thailand as possible.

This is not something unique to Thailand, not at all, but this is a Thai based board and my wife's nationality is (unfortunately) Thai, so Thailand's immigration laws and policies are what interest me most and what we are supposed to discuss here.

And it's something which has very little to do with economical/financial reasons: laws and policies like these are most common in 3rd world countries but still present in some developed countries (just think about Japan, its immigration laws and policies are almost as racist, xenophobic and discriminatory as Thailand's).

These are, most and foremost, matters of principles, fundamental principles, deeply ingrained in a society's culture. The fact that, put in certain terms, PR, citizenship etc are also economically/financially rewarding for Thailand is of secondary importance to the ruling class and the body of the Thai society itself. They promote tourism for the economical/financial gains it provides but they aren't willing to really open their society to foreigners on the basis of the economical/financial benefits of it. Above all, Westerners interacting with Thai lower classes are a danger to the ruling elite in more ways than one.

[OxfordWill]

Yes, another valid point. However I am not personally certain that this is a worry any hi-so Thai would express explicitly? Even less so in groups and further less so in government? After all, there are also plenty of westerners interacting with the higher class(es) too (for example the generation (of westerners interacting with Thais) below the current retirement group almost certainly mixes less with the "lower class" female than his father's generation did/does - 30 years ago you just didn't have the level of interaction between similar ages of all classes that you do in Bangkok today).

Edited July 7, 2007 by OxfordWill