Wood expert

[Thai Tim]

Hey All,

 

Anyone familiar with and used Kratin Tepa wood for construction?

 

I’ve been told it’s similar quality to Tang wood 

 

thanks 

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, Thai Tim said:

Anyone familiar with and used Kratin Tepa wood for construction?

 

I’ve been told it’s similar quality to Tang wood 

While I am no expert in the properties of locally grown wood, (or know one species from another) That is an extremely vague question, along with some pictures that show no detail as to size or seasoning methods you have given no information about what construction you are thinking of. Are you building a boat? Are you building scaffolding? Are you building furniture?

Edited April 26, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[Thai Tim]

Thanks @sometimewoodworker for your reply.

I'm looking to possibly use this Kratin Tepa for different uses including solid poles for columns on a restaurant, furniture and whatever else I get creative with.

I'm looking for anyone who has worked with or used this wood before and can share some light into mainly its quality & durability as we would be using it close to the ocean & it would have plenty of direct sunlight onto it.

 

Thanks

 

[sometimewoodworker]

@Thai Tim the wood itself is unlikely to be a significant influence in the durability. Of much more importance is the way it has been seasoned. You should also soak it in Chandrite at least twice, 3 or 4 is better and do not encase the base in concrete to avoid rot. Virtually any timber is strong in compression, so as long as the pieces are thick enough it’s going to be OK.

UV radiation will just effect the immediate surface layers and has no other effect than turning is grey salt laden air just means being a little more vigilant with checking for rot.

Thai’s have been using coconut wood for centuries and it only has a life span of a decade or so any tropical wood is better than that.

[Thai Tim]

@sometimewoodworker thanks for the tips.
We are planning to use at least 20cm wide poles for the columns.
The logs will be freshly cut soon, Please let me know your suggestion on time length for seasoning or other MUST seasoning practices before they are installed?

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, Thai Tim said:

@sometimewoodworker thanks for the tips.
We are planning to use at least 20cm wide poles for the columns.
The logs will be freshly cut soon, Please let me know your suggestion on time length for seasoning or other MUST seasoning practices before they are installed?

The first point is that it’s the diameter rather than the width of the posts that you should be quoting to make sense. It looks very much as though you’re not going to be converting it into square boards before use. The second point is the intended time of use if you want to use it for 50 years, 100 years 20 years or 10 years, there is different advice.

 

Length of time for seasoning depends on where it’s intended to be used. If it’s intended to be used indoors in air-conditioned spaces, then you want a moisture content of under 12% if it’s going to be used outdoors then you need the moisture content to be under 18%  to achieve this in the fastest way possible, you should first stack, the cut lengths of timber standing on a concrete floor to allow the majority of the free water to escape, this will reduce the overall seasoning time required.

 

The general rule of seasoning which is rather conservative, is one year for each 25 cm of thickness , however, if you’ve got a moisture meter and you can get one of these very inexpensively from places like AliExpress (they won’t be accurate, but what they can do is give you a difference between freshly cut and wood, that’s been stored for a while), it’s quite possible, that your mood may be down to 18% within six months  But this is very dependent on whether the wood has been cut or not, this is this is cut into boards, not cutting too sections of trunk.

 

To assess the speed of seasoning. You should have at least one or two boards that are significantly longer or completely sacrificial, so is that you can cut them about  30 cm down so that you can check to see how the seasoning is going. At that point, don’t use the Chanderite right until the wood is down to the required moisture content. While Chanderite is soda free after the volatiles have evaporated, this will take between a week and two weeks. However you don’t need to wait that sort of time before recoating. Once the wood surface is dry. You can re-coat and this will be an hour or two, depending on the absorption of the wood then you have to wait the one to 2 weeks before the dilatant which is paraffin or something very similar has completely evaporated.

 

This is a very brief and rough guide to what you need to do, and it should be clear that if you want to build within a year, then the lifespan of your building is likely to be very much shorter, than if you have time for proper seasoning and assessment of the wood that you cut down. This doesn’t mean that you are still going to get, probably, twice or more the building lifespan of someone who cuts and builds immediately without treatment.

 

https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/new-podcast-shannons-lumber-industry-update/

Episode 92 has some information but you should really listen to all of them

Edited April 28, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[kickstart]

Seeing this post and the word Gratin, made me look, we rear a few cattle and feed Gratin to our cattle, the specie is a tree legume, quick growing, more native to Queensland  and PNG, does grow in Malasia.

As for using it for wood working, as I said the one we feed to our cattle, is the same genus but a different specie we have some big poles of it about the place the wood worm likes it

, But like a lot of tropical woods it will split as it dry's, this can be prevented by applying a thick coat of PVA glue on the end grain, easy to find, only 80-100 baht for a large pot of it .

And has been said apply some anti-wood worm stuff, it will help if you can get the bark off the wood as soon as you can, after no more than 2 months, the wood worm lays they eggs between the bark and the wood, take the bark off and they should not attack the wood .

As for drying/ seasoning times, a lot less here, than in a temperate climate, I have some big  , Teak, Mango ,Madras Thorn  Rain Tree ,in less than a year they were dry enough to work from being cut fresh. 

I put Gratin Tepa in to Google in Thai, looking at some of the photos of this wood it looks very nice with a very good grain patten ,whatever you do with it it should come up well. 

[Thai Tim]

@sometimewoodworker & @kickstart thanks for the tips.

The wood I have found is grown in Phatthalung & Songkhla provinces.

Obviously we want the wood to last as long as possible as we plan to use it for structural columns on the restaurant using 6 meter lengths with 20cm Diameter.
If the wood is seasoned well and we do as you say in protecting it with regular maintenance. In your experience how long should the Gratin Tea wood (ไม้ สะเดา) last?

Thanks

[kickstart]

5 hours ago, Thai Tim said:

@sometimewoodworker & @kickstart thanks for the tips.

The wood I have found is grown in Phatthalung & Songkhla provinces.

Obviously we want the wood to last as long as possible as we plan to use it for structural columns on the restaurant using 6 meter lengths with 20cm Diameter.
If the wood is seasoned well and we do as you say in protecting it with regular maintenance. In your experience how long should the Gratin Tea wood (ไม้ สะเดา) last?

Thanks

Do what, ใม้สะเดา Mi Sadow  is Neem wood ,main one in Thailand is Siam Neem ,a quick growing wood popular for building ,when well-seasoned the worms will not eat it will last a long time, farmers often use it in building they store sheds, cattle sheds ect, but when still green wood worm can be a problem ,and it can split ,and warp ,what Thais do, get say a 1 foot square log 4-5 yard long ,they will saw though only 60-70 % then leave it to dry ,then cut it down in to planks or rails ,this will prevent it from warping., again need to remove the bark soon after cutting.

It is not good in the ground it will soon rot out at the base, the Thai way use 1-meter concrete posts with a tenon on then put a tenon on your wooden post and bolt it together.

If you have seen some of these rustic Thai tables and chairs, a lot are made from Neem wood.

Interesting your Gratin Tepar you have some down in the Southern Thai province's, not heard of it Noth of their ,they probably are some but not common. .

[asf6]

Here are a couple of links that describe the wood (kratin tepa/ไม้กระถินเทพา) and its properties. 

 

https://kaset.today/พันธุ์ไม้/กระถินเทพา/

https://www.dnp.go.th/EPAC/plant_economic/02krathintapa.htm

 

Here are 2 points from those links that I noticed that are relevant to the OP. 

* It can be used in all types of construction that do not require heavy loads.

* Strength will increase with age.

[Thai Tim]

Many Thanks @asf6 & @kickstart very helpful

 

legends!

[Thai Tim]

Hi @kickstart @asf6 @sometimewoodworker

@sometimewoodworker suggested using Chanderite

But can you share any other wisdom on what products would be best specifically for this type of wood to:
1) initially treat the wood poles once they have been installed
2) on-going maintenance & care

E.g water based, oil based, epoxy etc etc

We want to keep the same colour of the wood so preferable a clear coat
The poles are on the coast & will be subject to plenty of rain from the monsoon & the sun

Many Thanks
 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Thai Tim said:

1) initially treat the wood poles once they have been installed

You do not do the treatment after install, you may touch up the finish. The regimen is coat with Chandrite at least 3 times, wait a minimum of 7 days, more if you can still smell it, test the finish on a small test  piece of wood, wait the recommended time, then topcoat at least two if not three topcoats don’t forget that you will need to thin the finish.

2 hours ago, Thai Tim said:

We want to keep the same colour of the wood so preferable a clear coat
The poles are on the coast & will be subject to plenty of rain from the monsoon & the sun

You can not keep the same colour as the fresh wood. There is a 100% guarantee that the wood will go grey you can reduce the speed of it going grey the cost is about ฿2,000 per litre for the easier (not at all easy) single can and ฿5,000 for the 2 part 2 litres of undercoat.

 

This is the absolute best product for the job. If you go cheaper it will be a poorer quality. The general guidelines are to re-coat annually 
 

This is the high gloss version

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[kickstart]

Thai wood dose go gray, the reason it has not fully seasoned, if it has gone gray a going over with a sander and sandpaper ,starting with cause grits then finishing off with fine grits.

It helps when done use some Sanding Sealer, available here, they even use the English name, helps seal the wood, I have worked a lot with Thai wood when well-seasoned and well sanded it will hold its color.

As for using expensive imported yacht varnish, if you have ever been to a Thai show /market and looked at the furniture, a lot of the wood is  Burmese Rose wood or Mar Ka, and the sheen on that, they just use a shellac or a few coats of vanish ,dos the job just as well. and it will bring the color out, I like Linseed oil, not easy to find over here and expensive. 

[sometimewoodworker]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:51 AM, kickstart said:

Thai wood dose go gray, the reason it has not fully seasoned,

That is a completely incorrect statement. All wood that is not uv protected will go grey exposed to direct unfiltered sun. Seasoning wood (there is no such thing as fully seasoned) first extracts the free water then reduces the water in the cells. exposure to long term high humidity will allow the moisture content to rise as long term low humidity will reduce the moisture content. Significant changes in wood humidity makes the wood expand and contract.

 

On 5/5/2023 at 11:51 AM, kickstart said:

As for using expensive imported yacht varnish, if you have ever been to a Thai show /market and looked at the furniture, a lot of the wood is  Burmese Rose wood or Mar Ka, and the sheen on that, they just use a shellac or a few coats of vanish ,dos the job just as well. and it will bring the color out

That statement again is based on false information.

Shellac is a wonderful material and can produce an amazing fine finish done right with teens of coats it is French polish. It is quite delicate and is damaged by water and alcohol containing drinks, it is the first layer of finish I use, it has no UV protection.

Sunlight, even through glass will change the colour of wood, some like Cherry by a lot some by a little others have  virtually no change.
You can buy credit card sized UV A/B testers for a few baht that will show how much, or little, UV is on your furniture.

 

Behind our windows

 

outside at 7am on a cloudy morning 

 

Vanish is a term for finish that has a large range of materials in it, every producer uses different content. Some varnishes contain UV inhibitors, some don’t. Spar varnish always does it is quite soft.

 

The only way to know if the varnish has UV inhibitors and if sunlight and salt laden air will damage it is testing (there are very good reasons for the cost of branded yacht finish). So leave the wonderful coloured furniture outside for a couple of years in full sun and then look at it again. You can get lucky, or not so much. ????
 

It is possible to cook the wood to stop movement, this thermally modified wood can be found in a few countries that have the level of technology to do it, AFIK Thailand doesn’t have any kilns that produce this.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[kickstart]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:49 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

On 5/5/2023 at 11:51 AM, kickstart said:

Thai wood dose go gray, the reason it has not fully seasoned,

That is a completely incorrect statement. All wood that is not uv protected will go grey exposed to direct unfiltered sun. Seasoning wood (there is no such thing as fully seasoned) first extracts the free water then reduces the water in the cells. exposure to long term high humidity will allow the moisture content to rise as long term low humidity will reduce the moisture content. Significant changes in wood humidity makes the wood expand and contract.

 

You are wrong, maybe with our temperate climate wood, but this is a tropical country, with native hard woods, I have some old Mie Yang in Thai, or a Thie red wood, still red as the day it was cut, a bit of staining from the weather. 

Have a look at a Thai chopping board, Temerlin wood white ,when spalting sets in ,a fungi that attacks the  wood, a wood turner would bite your arm off for some splatted Beach gives a very nice finish spalting in ,Tamelim , when turned gives a good finish, may be a gray tinge ,due to the fungi. 

Have a look at your local temple, most have some Teak wood they, never been treated open to all the element's and still it natural color, and remember Teak has a lot of natural oils, prevents wood rot insect attack ....................and graying. 

Ever seen gray Mahogany?