Vesak Day Ceremony in Thailand to Attract Thousands of Monks

[Joe Farang]

14 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Perogitive of proof is not on my side. Show me actual proof and I might change my mind. As for life energy that goes when we do. Our life has finished, and so has our body. That's it. Any toughts of something happening after is in the realm of the supernatural and is in no way provable.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

 

I prefer to go with Albert Einstien on matters of Science, rather than you.

[dinsdale]

1 minute ago, Joe Farang said:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

 

I prefer to go with Albert Einstien on matters of Science, rather than you.

Fairly sure I've been posting my 'belief' is in rational and evidence based reality. If I haven't I apologise. Could you show me where please? If you're talking about we are all created from star dust then ok fair enough and after we're done our molecules move on. Fair enough. This, however, does not mean reincarnation in the Buddhist sense.

[dinsdale]

43 minutes ago, Joe Farang said:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

 

I prefer to go with Albert Einstien on matters of Science, rather than you.

Yes you are right. Energy can only be converted. We are made of matter and that matter decays when we die. There is no evidence where the energy of our decaying matter goes. Only conjecture. Again if reicarnation exists show me the evidence.

Edited May 28, 2023 by dinsdale

[jts-khorat]

11 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Can you please supply evidence, as you state, of reincarnation and for that matter Nirvana? Not from a book or teachings from Buddha but real concrete evidence. I bet you can't.

That you believe that there must be some physical evidence for people's beliefs, this is, of course, your personal prerogative.

 

However, your comment about literal re-incarnation makes me think that you somehow are not even talking about Theravada Buddhism (which would be the one relevant for Thailand). This makes it very difficult to enter in a discussion with you, as there is no shared terminology to work with.

 

In case you wish to delve into this question deeper, I would suggest that you read up a little bit about some of the central tenets of Theravada, namely the concept of Anatta. From it follows that there is no permanent self, soul or ego to be reincarnated. It is Kamma, the sum of actions, which ripens in a subsequent life, and by acting skilfully, this potential is removed from the circle of Samsara, while by acting unskilful, potential is added. There is no Nirvana "waiting" -- this would be a Mahayana concept, easily misunderstood as a simile of the Christian 'Heaven' -- only Nibbana, the complete removal of any Kamma from the cycle.

 

To make this easily understandable for myself, I like to see this similar to the impulse, that a billard ball would get when hit by another: it is a totally separate entity from the first ball, but it inherits its impulse, allowing it to take a wholly separate path, until it "achieves" the hole and is completely removed from the game.

 

This certainly cannot be proved physically. However, it describes the world around me, as I can perceive it, better than any other system of thought I have encountered, while at the same time delivering a moral and ethics framework to allow individuals and humanity as a whole to co-exist peacefully and productively.

 

Science does not stand in any way in rivalry to it. And that individual humans behave differently to that ideal framework does not invalidate it. It only shows that humans all too often live well below their personal potential.

 

If you can name a better framework, please share, I -- and many others, I am sure -- would be all ear.

Edited May 28, 2023 by jts-khorat
clarity

[dinsdale]

2 hours ago, jts-khorat said:

That you believe that there must be some physical evidence for people's beliefs, this is, of course, your personal prerogative.

 

However, your comment about literal re-incarnation makes me think that you somehow are not even talking about Theravada Buddhism (which would be the one relevant for Thailand). This makes it very difficult to enter in a discussion with you, as there is no shared terminology to work with.

 

In case you wish to delve into this question deeper, I would suggest that you read up a little bit about some of the central tenets of Theravada, namely the concept of Anatta. From it follows that there is no permanent self, soul or ego to be reincarnated. It is Kamma, the sum of actions, which ripens in a subsequent life, and by acting skilfully, this potential is removed from the circle of Samsara, while by acting unskilful, potential is added. There is no Nirvana "waiting" -- this would be a Mahayana concept, easily misunderstood as a simile of the Christian 'Heaven' -- only Nibbana, the complete removal of any Kamma from the cycle.

 

To make this easily understandable for myself, I like to see this similar to the impulse, that a billard ball would get when hit by another: it is a totally separate entity from the first ball, but it inherits its impulse, allowing it to take a wholly separate path, until it "achieves" the hole and is completely removed from the game.

 

This certainly cannot be proved physically. However, it describes the world around me, as I can perceive it, better than any other system of thought I have encountered, while at the same time delivering a moral and ethics framework to allow individuals and humanity as a whole to co-exist peacefully and productively.

 

Science does not stand in any way in rivalry to it. And that individual humans behave differently to that ideal framework does not invalidate it. It only shows that humans all too often live well below their personal potential.

 

If you can name a better framework, please share, I -- and many others, I am sure -- would be all ear.

What does subsequent life mean vis a vis karma?

[dinsdale]

So this is Sat Jun 1 3 and Mon Jun 3 5 is a public holiday in lieu of so are both of these days alcohol purchasing ban days? Notice I didn't say drinking because for some reason you can drink alcohol but stores/restaurants/bars etc are banned from selling it? Sorry got the dates wrong. I think Sat you can't buy and Mon you can.

Edited May 29, 2023 by dinsdale

[Mr Dome]

17 hours ago, dinsdale said:

Can you please supply evidence, as you state, of reincarnation and for that matter Nirvana? Not from a book or teachings from Buddha but real concrete evidence. I bet you can't.

It doesn't work that way that you come here and make up your own distortions about a topic you know little about and then try to "But can you ...?!" your way out of it, in what is a completely different discussion.

 

You're entitled to not believe any of that, even some Buddhists question it probably.

Buddhism isn't about blindly believing anything. But Buddhism *isn't* represented by someone selling something that can't be sold in the first place or a monk clearly abusing his vows.

[jts-khorat]

22 hours ago, dinsdale said:

What does subsequent life mean vis a vis karma?

I am not sure I understand your question. Its shortness suggests that you are looking for an easy answer, but I fear I do not have one.

 

Also, I am still trying to find a common terminology. Therefore maybe pedantic, firstly it is not Karma (which is a Sanskrit term). Theravada Buddhism is based on Pali as its transmission language, hence: Kamma.

 

Superficially, it is translated the same. But looking closer, your use of a Sanskrit instead of the Pali term immediately suggests, that you might potentially understand Kamma differently, in the sense of the later Mahyana traditions. Unluckily for a shared discussion, they can be removed from the (original?) Theravada philosophy quite far, as during the move from Pali to Sanskrit -- the language of contemporary Brahmanical scriptures -- they also took many of those Vedic concepts on board.

 

Maybe the largest difference between Karma and Kamma is, that in Mahayana it is not the sole basis of rebirth, as they added the concept of Bodhisattvas.

 

I could go on, but I have the feeling that we would be moving maybe too far from your direct question.

 

Therefore, let's keep to the horse's mouth: maybe not the worst start one could have when reading up on Kamma -- and I am sure the answer to your question is in there as well -- is this short primer written by Bikkhu Bodi: https://www.theravada.gr/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kamma-or-Karma-B.-Bodhi.pdf

 

If you are one for skipping ahead and reading the last chapter of every book to know how it ends, I recommend that you have at least a quick look at the pages 8 and 9 (the last two chapters), as follows:

 

Quote

We Are Not Hopeless Prisoners Of Our Past

 

The twin teachings on kamma and rebirth have several important implications for understanding our own lives.

First they enable us to understand that we are fully responsible for what we are. We can't blame our troubles on our environment, on our heredity, on fate or on our upbringing. All these factors have made us what we are, but the reason we have met these circumstances is because of our past kamma. This might seem to be at first a pessimistic doctrine. It seems to imply that we are the prisoners of our past kammas, that we have to submit to their effects.

 

This is a distortion.

 

It is true that very often we have to reap the results of our past kamma. But the important point to understand is that kamma is volitional action, and volitional action always takes place in the present, only in the present. This means at present it is possible for us to change the entire direction of our life.
If we closely examine our lives we'll see that our experience is of two types: first, experience that comes to us passively, which we receive independently of our choice; and second, experience which we create for ourselves through our choices and attitudes. The passive side of experience is largely the effect of past kamma.

 

We generally have to face this and learn to accept it. But within those limitations there is a space, the tremendous space of the present moment, in which we can reconstruct our world with our own minds.

If we let ourselves be dominated by selfishness, hatred, ambition and dullness, then, even if we are wealthy and powerful, we'll still be living in misery and suffering and keep planting seeds for rebirth in the world of suffering. On the other hand, even if we are poor and in sad circumstances, with much pain and misfortune, if we observe pure conduct, develop a mind of generosity, kindness and understanding, then we can transform our world, we can build a world of love and peace.

Going beyond kamma - the ultimate aim of the path

 

The ultimate aim of the path of the Buddha is not simply to achieve good results by performing good kamma. This is a mundane aim. The true aim of the path is to go entirely beyond the chain of kamma and results.

 

As long as we go on performing kamma and accumulating kamma, we remain subject to birth and death, and we will meet with suffering in its diverse forms. Whether one is living in a fortunate world or an unfortunate world is secondary. All states of existence are impermanent, without substance and unsatisfactory.

 

Kamma is generated due to clinging, clinging to good or bad actions. Clinging rests upon ignorance. By developing mindfulness and insight, by learning to see things as they really are, we can put an end to clinging and break free from kamma. Then we discover the freedom beyond kamma, the freedom of liberation.

 

The arahant, the liberated one, does not generate any more kamma. He continues to act and perform volitional actions, but without clinging. Hence his actions no longer constitute kamma. They don't leave any imprints upon the mind. They don't have the potency of ripening in the future to bring about rebirth. The activities of the arahants are called "Kriyas", not kammas. They are simple actions. They leave no trace on the mental continuum, just like the flight of birds across the sky.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by jts-khorat

[dinsdale]

47 minutes ago, jts-khorat said:

I am not sure I understand your question. Its shortness suggests that you are looking for an easy answer, but I fear I do not have one.

 

Also, I am still trying to find a common terminology. Therefore maybe pedantic, firstly it is not Karma (which is a Sanskrit term). Theravada Buddhism is based on Pali as its transmission language, hence: Kamma.

 

Superficially, it is translated the same. But looking closer, your use of a Sanskrit instead of the Pali term immediately suggests, that you might potentially understand Kamma differently, in the sense of the later Mahyana traditions. Unluckily for a shared discussion, they can be removed from the (original?) Theravada philosophy quite far, as during the move from Pali to Sanskrit -- the language of contemporary Brahmanical scriptures -- they also took many of those Vedic concepts on board.

 

Maybe the largest difference between Karma and Kamma is, that in Mahayana it is not the sole basis of rebirth, as they added the concept of Bodhisattvas.

 

I could go on, but I have the feeling that we would be moving maybe too far from your direct question.

 

Therefore, let's keep to the horse's mouth: maybe not the worst start one could have when reading up on Kamma -- and I am sure the answer to your question is in there as well -- is this short primer written by Bikkhu Bodi: https://www.theravada.gr/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kamma-or-Karma-B.-Bodhi.pdf

 

If you are one for skipping ahead and reading the last chapter of every book to know how it ends, I recommend that you have at least a quick look at the pages 8 and 9 (the last two chapters), as follows:

 

 

I think the brevity of the question makes it plain. How abbout this. What is subsequent life? 

 

On 5/29/2023 at 4:13 AM, jts-khorat said:

It is Kamma, the sum of actions, which ripens in a subsequent life

 

[jts-khorat]

12 hours ago, dinsdale said:

I think the brevity of the question makes it plain. How abbout this. What is subsequent life?

Samsara (simplified the "cycle of lives", subsequent life being therefore a part of it), with its causes and its effects, can be better understood by contemplating the twelve components of Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination).

 

Distilled down for the purpose of your question: Kilesas (mental fetters born out of ignorance) cloud the mind and lead to more negative Kamma (unwholesome actions). This shackles sentient beings permanently to Samsara suffused with Dukkha. Simplified Dukkha = Suffering, itself explained by the study of the Cattariariyasaccani (the Four Noble Truths).

 

By following the Ariyaatthangikamagga (Eightfold Path, simplified enhancing understanding and following practice) and cultivating the Ten Wholesome Actions (reducing negative Kamma), sentient beings would be able to pass through the Four Planes of Liberation towards the achievement of Nibbana (the release from Samsara).

 

"Subsequent life" is therefore a very much made plain and simplified term for the Non-achievement of Nibbana, the ongoing experience of Dukkha and therefore the continuation of Samsara.

Edited May 30, 2023 by jts-khorat

[jts-khorat]

12 hours ago, dinsdale said:

What is subsequent life?

Thinking about your question more, and I am still not sure if there is not such a serious gap in terminology and understanding that we simply have no possible overlap... might I offer an additional thought:

 

From a western perspective, the term 'subsequent life' might suggest something one might strive for or wish 'to achieve'.

 

In Theravada it is the exact opposite, it is something to be avoided, as it means 'just more of this harmful delusion we already suffer through'.

 

As you left me no clue on what level you wish to participate in a discussion, between the more dogmatic answer above and this simpler reply here, I would sincerely hope that you are able to further your understanding sufficiently for your own needs.

 

If you have more questions, I am happy to help out.
 

Edited May 30, 2023 by jts-khorat

[dinsdale]

1 hour ago, jts-khorat said:

Samsara (simplified the "cycle of lives", subsequent life being therefore a part of it), with its causes and its effects, can be better understood by contemplating the twelve components of Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination).

 

Distilled down for the purpose of your question: Kilesas (mental fetters born out of ignorance) cloud the mind and lead to more negative Kamma (unwholesome actions). This shackles sentient beings permanently to Samsara suffused with Dukkha. Simplified Dukkha = Suffering, itself explained by the study of the Cattariariyasaccani (the Four Noble Truths).

 

By following the Ariyaatthangikamagga (Eightfold Path, simplified enhancing understanding and following practice) and cultivating the Ten Wholesome Actions (reducing negative Kamma), sentient beings would be able to pass through the Four Planes of Liberation towards the achievement of Nibbana (the release from Samsara).

 

"Subsequent life" is therefore a very much made plain and simplified term for the Non-achievement of Nibbana, the ongoing experience of Dukkha and therefore the continuation of Samsara.

Ok. So it's supernatural which means there is no evidence. You didn't reach the pinnacle so you are reborn to try, try again. Questions that pops to mind are how do you know you have to try again? How do you know you have to be a better Buddhist to avoid a never ending Samsara? It's a doctrine.

Edited May 30, 2023 by dinsdale

[jts-khorat]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:09 PM, dinsdale said:

Ok. So it's supernatural which means there is no evidence. You didn't reach the pinnacle so you are reborn to try, try again. Questions that pops to mind are how do you know you have to try again? How do you know you have to be a better Buddhist to avoid a never ending Samsara? It's a doctrine.

How do you know that this is the right path? By fitting your observation of the world around you to how Theravada describes it; if your own practice leads to the outcomes described, it must be deduced that both your observation and the resulting method to change perception of the world are likely right -- this is indeed proper scientific method (even though I am not sure why this is of such importance to you).

 

Unluckily it seems that you are tied up in a logical prison from which you even through your questions are unable to free yourself, at least you seem to fall constantly into the same semantic and therefore logical traps. It is not 'you' that is reborn. And maybe more importantly for understanding, there is no pinnacle to be reached.

 

The goal is the absence of this reaching and the recognization that this presently reaching 'you' is the delusion which perpetuates this harmful process in the first place.

 

This logic break to the simplistic and mechanistic moral world view we in the west have grown up with is really important. In Theravada, there is no price for achievement, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow or a bearded father figure clapping you on the shoulder when entering heaven because you were a good boy. No magic tricks or acts of penitence to change the ledger into giving you extra points. No virgins or flute playing angels waiting to serve you. There are no 'better Buddhists', as this is no race or competition. There is no 'hell' either if you 'misbehave'.

 

The effort of understanding -- one of the aspects I like about Theravada worldview the most -- is put in solely for your individual benefit. Because you want to. You and you alone, un-helped and un-hindered, have the free choice to follow or not follow the path, stop as you wish, move on when you feel it is right. It matters to nobody but you.

 

In any case, there is only the endless circle of drudgery and delusion -- which circles nicely back to your question, how you know that you need to do this practice to leave the circle of Samsara? You know by learning -- and as they say here in Thailand: it is "up to you".

Edited May 31, 2023 by jts-khorat

[dinsdale]

13 minutes ago, jts-khorat said:

How do you know that this is the right path?

The right path for me will be to the mom and pop shop on Saturday to buy some beer. 

[jts-khorat]

18 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

The right path for me will be to the mom and pop shop on Saturday to buy some beer. 

Well. As I said, how you progress on your own path is "up to you". But might I impart a last gem of wisdom?

 

You do know that fridges are a thing, so there would be no need to time your purchases to any inconvenient schedule.

 

Plus, with a well-filled fridge, there will be lots of friends to discuss the mysteries of the cosmos.  ????????

[dinsdale]

8 minutes ago, jts-khorat said:

Well. As I said, how you progress on your own path is "up to you". But might I impart a last gem of wisdom?

 

You do know that fridges are a thing, so there would be no need to time your purchases to any inconvenient schedule.

 

Plus, with a well-filled fridge, there will be lots of friends to discuss the mysteries of the cosmos.  ????????

Well. I should be able to stock my own fridge free of will and not be denied by religious or other doctrine.

Edited May 31, 2023 by dinsdale