Friend In Need

[cdnvic]

I just love these "Please reply only by telling me what I want to hear" threads. Hearing only what you want to hear is what political talk radio is for. On an open forum you may get more than just sympathy and it may do you some good to hear it too. Somewhere along the line you got the fool notion that lying and committing fraud still entitled you to "decent bloke" status, and nobody had the good sense to tell you any different.

As for those justifying fraud by pointing out the poor pay, nobody forced him to come teach in Thailand did they? And for those who like to wag their fingers at "moralizers", no we haven't all led perfect clean lives, but we have learned that there are consequences to our actions, something the OP's friend needs to grow up and learn.

[davejonesbkk]

Ok guys thanks for all the replies.

I knew this would be a touchy topic but I just put it up here to see if there was some sort of middle ground that could be reached which wouldnt end up with him in jail.

As we've seen he's now a member of this forum and can act on the information/advice he has received.

cheers

Dave

[kratindaeng]

Ok guys thanks for all the replies.

I knew this would be a touchy topic but I just put it up here to see if there was some sort of middle ground that could be reached which wouldnt end up with him in jail.

As we've seen he's now a member of this forum and can act on the information/advice he has received.

cheers

Dave

As hes a member, can I ask how much he paid for the fake degree? Thailand is grinding me down and I am running out of options.......just kidding

[Hampstead]

You want this guy hanged for using fake id's

I didn't say this.

No

I SAID IT

[qwertz]

Sounds like the guy made some mistakes, but who hasn't. Trying to sneak out of the country would probably be another one. Talking to his previous employer, the judge, sounds a lot smarter. Hiring or at least talking to a lawyer when in trouble is NEVER a bad idea. He can at least find out if a warrant exists and with no risk to the OP's friend. As far as the sermons go, I don't think anyone comes to ThaiVisa looking for moral advise, but it sure seems like a lot of people come here looking to give it!

Last two posters seconded.

I hope at least we've managed to squeeze a few helpful tips in between all the useless sermonising.

All due respect to the righteously indignant out there but the as the OP said at the start, this was not a thread for you comment on unless you want to help.

Would you want him teaching your kids if he wasnt qualified.....nuff said

This is an open forum...if he wanted advice, a lawyer would be better placed to help him...nuff said

The thread isn't about the quality of teaching but in answer just to you, if I had kids I'd judge said quality on results.

And yes, I do teach (in a totally different field) so I know what I'm talking about.

Give me an enthusiastic amateur who loves his work rather than a bored professional any time.

I'll wager the qualified teachers (i.e. with certificates) over here are not doing a better job at teaching English than he's been doing over there.

I'm not justifying his position but his misdemeanour over there is only a crime because he's been detected.

I can't imagine that he's not the tip of an iceberg because I've seen the quality of many farang teachers over there and (all due respect to the good ones) frankly they're crap.

And at least your last advice is relevant, he needs legal advice - urgently.

Edited July 12, 2007 by qwertz

[jetjock]

Ya gotta just love those moralizers and sermonizers ! You have to wonder how many of them would voluntarily turn themselves in to face a third world kangaroo court system that could hand out a possible 9 year sentence in the monkey house ( from which he might not get out alive ) for the heinous crime of playing along with the system by using fake degrees ! BTW I am a law and order type guy but in this case, I have total empathy for someone in this situation.

Good luck jayaybee and hopefully you will have enough money and connections to take care of the matter the way most matters of this nature are handled in Thailand.

[meemiathai]

Sounds like the guy made some mistakes, but who hasn't. Trying to sneak out of the country would probably be another one. Talking to his previous employer, the judge, sounds a lot smarter. Hiring or at least talking to a lawyer when in trouble is NEVER a bad idea. He can at least find out if a warrant exists and with no risk to the OP's friend. As far as the sermons go, I don't think anyone comes to ThaiVisa looking for moral advise, but it sure seems like a lot of people come here looking to give it!

Last two posters seconded.

I hope at least we've managed to squeeze a few helpful tips in between all the useless sermonising.

All due respect to the righteously indignant out there but the as the OP said at the start, this was not a thread for you comment on unless you want to help.

Would you want him teaching your kids if he wasnt qualified.....nuff said

This is an open forum...if he wanted advice, a lawyer would be better placed to help him...nuff said

The thread isn't about the quality of teaching but in answer just to you, if I had kids I'd judge said quality on results.

And yes, I do teach (in a totally different field) so I know what I'm talking about.

Give me an enthusiastic amateur who loves his work rather than a bored professional any time.

I'll wager the qualified teachers (i.e. with certificates) over here are not doing a better job at teaching English than he's been doing over there.

I'm not justifying his position but his misdemeanour over there is only a crime because he's been detected.

I can't imagine that he's not the tip of an iceberg because I've seen the quality of many farang teachers over there and (all due respect to the good ones) frankly they're crap.

And at least your last advice is relevant, he needs legal advice - urgently.

No problems for me teaching my kids. It is not difficult to tell if the teacher is good or not. Just observe the kids' reaction over a few weeks you can tell.

Certificates are illusions sometimes. I know many people having a license for something but are really crap.

Edited July 12, 2007 by meemiathai

[gburns57au]

The thread isn't about the quality of teaching but in answer just to you, if I had kids I'd judge said quality on results.

Ok...show me the money...I will come and teach your kids....

And yes, I do teach (in a totally different field) so I know what I'm talking about.

Give me an enthusiastic amateur who loves his work rather than a bored professional any time.

I'll wager the qualified teachers (i.e. with certificates) over here are not doing a better job at teaching English than he's been doing over there.

But he isnt qualified is he?? he used fake documents to secure employment.

I'm not justifying his position but his misdemeanour over there is only a crime because he's been detected.

The jails are full of people who didnt commit a crime until it was detected

I can't imagine that he's not the tip of an iceberg because I've seen the quality of many farang teachers over there and (all due respect to the good ones) frankly they're crap.

And at least your last advice is relevant, he needs legal advice - urgently.

Yes, good advice if taken....but he has had 3 months at least to seek legal advice...but he hasnt, has he ??

[mrtoad]

Fake qualifications!!!!!!!!!

Simple, he played the game, he has lost!!!

Why should he get sympathy? I have no doubt that he had the opportunity to get legal, he just chose not to.

Sorry. qwertz, but it's not about the quality. it's about the legnth of time that he has spent deceiving people. Not once, not twice, but threee times a con artist. (Sorry, got it mixed up Mr Ritchie).

[qwertz]

Fake qualifications!!!!!!!!!

Simple, he played the game, he has lost!!!

Why should he get sympathy? I have no doubt that he had the opportunity to get legal, he just chose not to.

Sorry. qwertz, but it's not about the quality. it's about the legnth of time that he has spent deceiving people. Not once, not twice, but threee times a con artist. (Sorry, got it mixed up Mr Ritchie).

Mr. Toad, we're more in agreement than you think if you read my post in more depth.

In fact, I can't fault you on any of the facts you quote, which have led to him being in the hole he's in.

But he knows all that already.

And I don't see him begging for sympathy.

What he doesn't know is how to get out of it.

Edited July 12, 2007 by qwertz

[OxfordWill]

Well it seems this thread has served its purpose for now, but out of courtesy to mrtoad and gburns who responded to my criticisms: yes you can express your opinions on a public board but to express them as "fact" (what you did was "wrong" etc) is the problem. There are no moral "facts" outside of fundamentalist religions, which I am fairly sure Thaivisa.com is not an example of (although we have several bishops, a definite archbishop and more than our fair share of a "flock" myself included!).

[cdnvic]

You want this guy hanged for using fake id's

I didn't say this.

No

I SAID IT

Are you half as confused as you sound?

[gburns57au]

Well it seems this thread has served its purpose for now, but out of courtesy to mrtoad and gburns who responded to my criticisms: yes you can express your opinions on a public board but to express them as "fact" (what you did was "wrong" etc) is the problem. There are no moral "facts" outside of fundamentalist religions, which I am fairly sure Thaivisa.com is not an example of (although we have several bishops, a definite archbishop and more than our fair share of a "flock" myself included!).

He knows what he did was wrong.....there is no dispute about that....

The problem is that he doesnt want to face the music now he has been caught out.

Like a lot of crims...they admit the crime but dont think that they deserve to do the time.

Here is the newsflash....do the crime....do the time.

The fact as pointed out is, that he has continued to work under false pretences more than once and for a very long time...he was happy to do that while he was being paid to do something that he was clearly not qualified to do....until it came down around his ears.

Ask the question of yourself...how long and just how far would he have rode this train....if not caught out...it is obvious that he had no intention of stopping his offending. His only remorse is that he got caught.

I dont think you should bring morals into it....because he certainly didnt have any morals about accepting a job that he wasnt qualified for and continued to practice this deceit for nearly 8 years.

And, as if the reputation of farang teachers in Thailand hasnt already taken a battering over the last few years, along comes this guy to further belittle what was once considered to be a noble and priviledged position in Thai society.

[qwertz]

During my German studies in England I was asked to take over the beginner's classes as they weren't happy with the teachers.

The college knew I wasn't yet qualified as I was actually studying there but I spoke fluent German as well as if not better than the certificated teachers, having learned it in Germany.

I enjoyed the work, the classes learned well and the only native speaking teacher there admitted he couldn't have done it better.

There are some parallels here.

Was I a criminal too?

[BADBRAD]

Well it seems this thread has served its purpose for now, but out of courtesy to mrtoad and gburns who responded to my criticisms: yes you can express your opinions on a public board but to express them as "fact" (what you did was "wrong" etc) is the problem. There are no moral "facts" outside of fundamentalist religions, which I am fairly sure Thaivisa.com is not an example of (although we have several bishops, a definite archbishop and more than our fair share of a "flock" myself included!).

He knows what he did was wrong.....there is no dispute about that....

The problem is that he doesnt want to face the music now he has been caught out.

Like a lot of crims...they admit the crime but dont think that they deserve to do the time.

Here is the newsflash....do the crime....do the time.

The fact as pointed out is, that he has continued to work under false pretences more than once and for a very long time...he was happy to do that while he was being paid to do something that he was clearly not qualified to do....until it came down around his ears.

Ask the question of yourself...how long and just how far would he have rode this train....if not caught out...it is obvious that he had no intention of stopping his offending. His only remorse is that he got caught.

I dont think you should bring morals into it....because he certainly didnt have any morals about accepting a job that he wasnt qualified for and continued to practice this deceit for nearly 8 years.

And, as if the reputation of farang teachers in Thailand hasnt already taken a battering over the last few years, along comes this guy to further belittle what was once considered to be a noble and priviledged position in Thai society.

Hold up now, he knows that what he did was illegal, that doesn't mean he knows it was "wrong." Law vs. conscience/morality is an argument that has no end. That it is why it is riduculous for us to argue here whether or not the guy deserves the punishment that the Thai law stipulates. There will always be people with opinions on both sides of the issue. Gburns said "he certainly didn't have any morals....," but everyone has their own morals wheter you agree with them or not. I don't think that there is anymore relevant advice to be given on this thread. It has deteriorated into an argument of right vs. wrong. Which was certainly not the intent of the OP.Therefore, I CALL FOR CLOSURE, before it gets ugly. "IMHO!"

[qwertz]

With your post count, badbrad, I really don't think you're qualified yet to judge the nature of a thread or to call for it to be closed.

In case you didn't read the heading, it's a forum.

[cdnvic]

During my German studies in England I was asked to take over the beginner's classes as they weren't happy with the teachers.

The college knew I wasn't yet qualified as I was actually studying there but I spoke fluent German as well as if not better than the certificated teachers, having learned it in Germany.

I enjoyed the work, the classes learned well and the only native speaking teacher there admitted he couldn't have done it better.

There are some parallels here.

Was I a criminal too?

Did you lie to obtain the position? No. No fraud was committed so this is no parallel.

[sukanyacondo]

During my German studies in England I was asked to take over the beginner's classes as they weren't happy with the teachers.

The college knew I wasn't yet qualified as I was actually studying there but I spoke fluent German as well as if not better than the certificated teachers, having learned it in Germany.

I enjoyed the work, the classes learned well and the only native speaking teacher there admitted he couldn't have done it better.

There are some parallels here.

Was I a criminal too?

Did you lie to obtain the position? No. No fraud was committed so this is no parallel.

Sometimes the best person for the job is the one who actually knows how to do it and was probably self taught etc and not someone who passed an exam. I have had trainess in my job for many years the best one had never been to college and just picked it up as he went along but the main thing was observation something many of them lacked.

[gburns57au]

During my German studies in England I was asked to take over the beginner's classes as they weren't happy with the teachers.

The college knew I wasn't yet qualified as I was actually studying there but I spoke fluent German as well as if not better than the certificated teachers, having learned it in Germany.

I enjoyed the work, the classes learned well and the only native speaking teacher there admitted he couldn't have done it better.

There are some parallels here.

Was I a criminal too?

Did you lie to obtain the position? No. No fraud was committed so this is no parallel.

You didnt use fake documents, the school was aware of your qualifications and lack thereof...no false pretence there....

There are parallels yes....but you didnt have the intent...as soon as the other guy took the fake qualifications, he formed an intent to falsly pretend to be something he wasnt. That is when a crime was committed...he had opportunity to say "I cant do this" but he continued the deceit and more than once.

What he needs to realise is that if he continues to hide and if he leaves the country by illegal means and if the warrant exists...he is on the run as a felon..if he gets caught later then he has no mitigation and can expect the full weight of the law.

If he sees a lawyer...pleads guilty...then he can expect a lighter sentence, maybe even a non custodial one...but he wont know till he sees a lawyer. The schools supplied the fake documents so they share some culpability, that can be used as a mitigating factor in sentencing.

Edited July 13, 2007 by gburns57au

[Gary A]

Regardless of education, some people make good teachers and some do NOT. As for myself, I would make a terrible English teacher because I am not fond of kids and I have no patience. I had a highly educated friend in Bangkok who was well qualified as far as credentials but he hated the job and kids irritated him. Who would you rather have, a guy who enjoys teaching or someone who is teaching just to be able to stay in Thailand?

[cdnvic]

Regardless of education, some people make good teachers and some do NOT. As for myself, I would make a terrible English teacher because I am not fond of kids and I have no patience. I had a highly educated friend in Bangkok who was well qualified as far as credentials but he hated the job and kids irritated him. Who would you rather have, a guy who enjoys teaching or someone who is teaching just to be able to stay in Thailand?

That's really irrelevant. You may as well ask if they would rather have a healthy unqualified person teaching their kids, or a highly qualified teacher with a very contagious and virulent disease. Each question is just as loaded.

I assume that all parents would like a qualified real teacher who loved their job over a fake, regardless of how much he loved the job he was not trained to do that he lied to obtain.

[mrtoad]

Considering that he probably didn't even have to submit fake credentials to stay here perfectly legally it just seems even more moronic that he did it three times.

Just quickly back to Oxfordwill - FACT -he submitted frake documentsts. Fact - He obtained WP's and Visa's based on fake documentss. Fact - He broke the law.

I am not saying he is a bad teacher, in fact he may well be a very good teacher hence my opening sentence in this post.

[firehorse]

My opinion doesn't matter on this and neither does anyone elses.

Fact: He broke the law.

Fact: So did the school which presented the false documents.

Fact: He hasn't done anything about it.

Fact: He's probably to scared to.

Fact: With a possible 9 years in the Bangkok Hilton so would any of you.

Fact: He's commited a crime (misdemeanor)

Fact: No one has been hurt.

Fact: There's a huge shortage of teachers in Thailand, especially good ones.

Fact: He's a very good teacher, the best I've seen here.

Fact: His students miss him.

Fact:" My birthday is April 15th." is bad English. That's written in a very well known English language text book, by people who have degrees I should imagine.

"Experience maketh the man."

[rainman]

...but please dont leave any of those "he deserves to go to jail, screw him" type comments.

Okay, I won't write that then. Now I don't have any other comment to write, though ...

[bendix]

I'd like to hear from the 'teacher' *ahem* in question again. He popped up a couple of pages ago. Where is he now? Still hiding out? Actively planning a Boys Own escape through the leech-infested jungles to go and join Begbie in Cambodia?

All this and more . . . . . in next week's thrilling episode of 'Rogue Teacher on the Run'.

[sonnyJ]

My opinion doesn't matter on this and neither does anyone elses.

Fact: He broke the law.

Fact: So did the school which presented the false documents.

Fact: He hasn't done anything about it.

Fact: He's probably to scared to.

Fact: With a possible 9 years in the Bangkok Hilton so would any of you.

Fact: He's commited a crime (misdemeanor)

Fact: No one has been hurt.

Fact: There's a huge shortage of teachers in Thailand, especially good ones.

Fact: He's a very good teacher, the best I've seen here.

Fact: His students miss him.

Fact:" My birthday is April 15th." is bad English. That's written in a very well known English language text book, by people who have degrees I should imagine.

"Experience maketh the man."

I agree with most of your lines. He played the game the Thai way and now is accused of wrong doings. It's a hard world yes, but what is his mistake really?

I suggest layers, if he can prove this is the way things went as he tells us, and continue play the Thai system. No big problem. I would suggest a layer anyhow.

As you must have figured out i'm not native english speaker. :" My birthday is April 15th." is bad English.... I don't get it, what kind of riddle is this?. Maybe add "on the 15th of April."???

Please enlighten me with that...

[mrtoad]

I'd like to hear from the 'teacher' *ahem* in question again. He popped up a couple of pages ago. Where is he now? Still hiding out? Actively planning a Boys Own escape through the leech-infested jungles to go and join Begbie in Cambodia?

All this and more . . . . . in next week's thrilling episode of 'Rogue Teacher on the Run'.

Please don't tell me that Begbie is a teacher as well?

[qwertz]

I'd like to hear from the 'teacher' *ahem* in question again. He popped up a couple of pages ago. Where is he now? Still hiding out? Actively planning a Boys Own escape through the leech-infested jungles to go and join Begbie in Cambodia?

All this and more . . . . . in next week's thrilling episode of 'Rogue Teacher on the Run'.

Bendix, this would be a perfect thread for a never ending story.

Did anyone ever see Michael Palin's "Ripping Yarns"?

[firehorse]

To SonnyJ,

Yes, you were quite correct. A lack of the preposition "on", before the date.

My birthday is on April the 15th, is correct.

My birthday is on the 15th of April, is correct.

Sorry! It wasn't a riddle. This is in a text book written by "qualified" people.

Edited July 17, 2007 by firehorse

[bendix]

To SonnyJ,

Yes, you were quite correct. A lack of the preposition "on", before the date.

My birthday is on April the 15th, is correct.

My birthday is on the 15th of April, is correct.

Sorry! It wasn't a riddle. This is in a text book written by "qualified" people.

Pedantic nonsense. If you know anything about the English language, its history and its CONSTANT evolution you will know it is a living, organic language which changes over time. English is whatever people speak it deem it to be. It can't be 'pinned down' as correct in a textbook.

'My birthday is April the 15th' or 'My birthday is 15 April' are both as valid - in a real sense - as your more pompous interpretation.