2 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

Not through arbitrary markers such as dress and style, but through acknowledged concomitants such as a massively raised suicide rate, which has seen explosive growth in young people in the past few years in the US, (though not so much in other countries).

I have no clear idea what you are referring to? Are you blaming transgenderism for the rise in suicide rates in the USA? 

2 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

I imagine, though, that the "gender-affirming" industry would rather it could be traced to neurological sources, and I expect that they are "doing the work" right now.

 

And another conspiracy theory about science. Why am I not surprised?

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I have no clear idea what you are referring to? Are you blaming transgenderism for the rise in suicide rates in the USA? 

One of the main reasons offered up in favour of "gender-affirming" child mutilation is that it could help to reduce the enormously high rate of suicide among young people with "gender dysphoria".

How come we never hear of problems/issues with transgenderism in Russia or China or North Korea?

Just now, Eleftheros said:

One of the main reasons offered up in favour of "gender-affirming" child mutilation is that it could help to reduce the enormously high rate of suicide among young people with "gender dysphoria".

First off, you're distorting the fact that surgical procedures are very rare. Overwhelmingly, it's medication that's offered. And, as has been posted in this thread. the rates of suicide among transgender youth are much lower when they are allowed access to treatment. Are you against the use of medication for minors? Or do you prefer the higher suicide rate where it's not allowed?

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

First off, you're distorting the fact that surgical procedures are very rare. Overwhelmingly, it's medication that's offered.

Is it your position that very rare is acceptable? Medication (like puberty blockers) that I understand generally changes the child's physiology permanently, correct? 

 

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And, as has been posted in this thread. the rates of suicide among transgender youth are much lower when they are allowed access to treatment. Are you against the use of medication for minors? Or do you prefer the higher suicide rate where it's not allowed?

Do you have anything (more than an opinion) that supports your claim that: the "...rates of suicide among transgender youth are much lower when they are allowed access to treatment."?

 

Trans-promotors love to use this kind of rhetoric to falsely claim the moral high ground in an attempt to make it appear as if the people that disagree with them do not care about the wellbeing of children. 

 

 

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

First off, you're distorting the fact that surgical procedures are very rare. Overwhelmingly, it's medication that's offered. And, as has been posted in this thread. the rates of suicide among transgender youth are much lower when they are allowed access to treatment. Are you against the use of medication for minors? Or do you prefer the higher suicide rate where it's not allowed?

As has also been posted in this thread, "very rare" is a vague and subjective term, even if you accept that this form of butchery should be permitted at all. Go back and look at the JAMA data to see whether it fits your criteria of "very rare". It doesn't fit mine.

 

And as has also been posted in this thread, there are no long-term data tracking the rates of suicide among post-treatment children. In fact, there can be no long-term data, since the industry at it exists today has only been operating for somewhere around 10 years in the US with the majority of treatments taking place in the last 3 or 4 years.

 

That is even without the difficulty of actually obtaining accurate statistics on the subject, even over the short time period that is available.

 

In short, I reject both your assertions as "mostly false", as the fact-checkers would say.

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Is it your position that very rare is acceptable? Medication (like puberty blockers) that I understand generally changes the child's physiology permanently, correct? 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. Please read the thread.

25 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Wrong. Please read the thread.

So, it is not your position that very rare is acceptable? I agree, I think it is entirely unacceptable. It seems it is only the trans-promoters that find it acceptable. 

Transgenderism is not a mental illness. 

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a clear difference between mental health, mental illness and a mental condition.

 

Mental health can be treated and sufferers can often recover fully and lead normal lives. 

 

Mental illnesses can be treated and managed but recovery is not always possible. Alzheimers and other forms of dementia being two example.

 

Transgenderism is a condition. It's a condition that sufferers are born with. It is generally agreed by medical experts that it results from a mutation of the genotype for the CYP17 gene. 

The difference between this and mental health and illness is that it cannot be treated with drugs aimed at the brain and mental disorders, even though it is the brain recognising the difference. That's because it's not an issue with how the brain is working but more what the brain is seeing in the physical sense.

 

Many people first sense the differences in their bodies as early a 6 years old. They can receive treatment for the mental health issues caused by this condition, not the condition itself, such as feeling isolated, not being able to talk to anyone about their feelings or not knowing any others that feel the same. Confusion.

 

Those who decide to transition are not trying to become the opposite sex. They just want to look and be viewed how they feel. It's still a lonely existence as difficulties in forming relationships creates barriers in romance. Also, those who don't understand the condition still mock and make life a misery for them. 

 

It's great that in Thailand the condition is generally accepted for what it is. A condition that affects a small minority of people. It's not a life choice.

 

The only defining treatment is physical. Hormone treatment and surgery. Hormones can be used at young ages. I actually know of a male to female that started horemone therapy in grade 8. She has since had full transitioning surgery and is living a happy life. In her case she is also in a happy relationship with her male partner.

 

The debate about how early in life surgery should take place will rage on for a long time. However, terms like "chopping off" and " mutilation" are crass and wide of the mark.

Edited October 5, 20232 yr by youreavinalaff

17 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Transgenderism is not a mental illness. 

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a clear difference between mental health, mental illness and a mental condition.

 

Mental health can be treated and sufferers can often recover fully and lead normal lives. 

 

Mental illnesses can be treated and managed but recovery is not always possible. Alzheimers and other forms of dementia being two example.

 

Transgenderism is a condition. It's a condition that sufferers are born with. It is generally agreed by medical experts that it results from a mutation of the genotype for the CYP17 gene. 

The difference between this and mental health and illness is that it cannot be treated with drugs aimed at the brain and mental disorders, even though it is the brain recognising the difference. That's because it's not an issue with how the brain is working but more what the brain is seeing in the physical sense.

 

Many people first sense the differences in their bodies as early a 6 years old. They can receive treatment for the mental health issues caused by this condition, not the condition itself, such as feeling isolated, not being able to talk to anyone about their feelings or not knowing any others that feel the same. Confusion.

 

Those who decide to transition are not trying to become the opposite sex. They just want to look and be viewed how they feel. It's still a lonely existence as difficulties in forming relationships creates barriers in romance. Also, those who don't understand the condition still mock and make life a misery for them. 

 

It's great that in Thailand the condition is generally accepted for what it is. A condition that affects a small minority of people. It's not a life choice.

 

The only defining treatment is physical. Hormone treatment and surgery. Hormones can be used at young ages. I actually know of a male to female that started horemone therapy in grade 8. She has since had full transitioning surgery and is living a happy life. In her case she is also in a happy relationship with her male partner.

 

The debate about how early in life surgery should take place will rage on for a long time. However, terms like "chopping off" and " mutilation" are crass and wide of the mark.

Excellent.

45 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Transgenderism is not a mental illness. 

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, there is a clear difference between mental health, mental illness and a mental condition.

 

Mental health can be treated and sufferers can often recover fully and lead normal lives. 

 

Mental illnesses can be treated and managed but recovery is not always possible. Alzheimers and other forms of dementia being two example.

 

Transgenderism is a condition. It's a condition that sufferers are born with. It is generally agreed by medical experts that it results from a mutation of the genotype for the CYP17 gene. 

The difference between this and mental health and illness is that it cannot be treated with drugs aimed at the brain and mental disorders, even though it is the brain recognising the difference. That's because it's not an issue with how the brain is working but more what the brain is seeing in the physical sense.

 

Many people first sense the differences in their bodies as early a 6 years old. They can receive treatment for the mental health issues caused by this condition, not the condition itself, such as feeling isolated, not being able to talk to anyone about their feelings or not knowing any others that feel the same. Confusion.

 

Those who decide to transition are not trying to become the opposite sex. They just want to look and be viewed how they feel. It's still a lonely existence as difficulties in forming relationships creates barriers in romance. Also, those who don't understand the condition still mock and make life a misery for them. 

 

It's great that in Thailand the condition is generally accepted for what it is. A condition that affects a small minority of people. It's not a life choice.

 

The only defining treatment is physical. Hormone treatment and surgery. Hormones can be used at young ages. I actually know of a male to female that started horemone therapy in grade 8. She has since had full transitioning surgery and is living a happy life. In her case she is also in a happy relationship with her male partner.

 

The debate about how early in life surgery should take place will rage on for a long time. However, terms like "chopping off" and " mutilation" are crass and wide of the mark.

Do you have anything that supports your opinion, aside from a lot of other opinions? 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So, it is not your position that very rare is acceptable? I agree, I think it is entirely unacceptable. It seems it is only the trans-promoters that find it acceptable. 

That’s not what I was commenting on. Hormone treatment/puberty blockers aren’t permanent. As I mentioned in a previous post. 

40 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have anything that supports your opinion, aside from a lot of other opinions? 

Not opinions.

 

Knowlwdge and information gained from training in advancements in medical science, years of working in care and support of  transgender people,study, experience of dealing with mental health, illness and condition.

 

 

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

That’s not what I was commenting on. Hormone treatment/puberty blockers aren’t permanent. As I mentioned in a previous post. 

That is not my understanding.

 

Are you saying that if someone born with testicles takes puberty blockers from the age of ten until they are twenty-five, and then stops taking them, that puberty will recommence, and that in fifteen years their body will be just as it would have been had they never taken the medication? 

 

Do you have any long-term studies that supports your position? 

3 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not opinions.

 

Knowlwdge and information gained from training in advancements in medical science, years of working in care and support of  transgender people,study, experience of dealing with mental health, illness and condition.

 

 

That's what I thought, thanks. 

4 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

That’s not what I was commenting on. Hormone treatment/puberty blockers aren’t permanent. As I mentioned in a previous post. 

You're confusing irreversible and permanent. 

 

If I keep my kid out of school for 5 years, the results will be reversible by sending him back.  But his life will be permanently affected.  He will never gain parity with his peer group.

 

If a kid hits puberty at age 20 because they decide to quit taking their puberty blockers, their lives will never be the same, even if the effects are reversed 100%.  (If that's actually the case.)  That's a permanent effect.

 

3 minutes ago, impulse said:

You're confusing irreversible and permanent. 

 

If I keep my kid out of school for 5 years, the results will be reversible by sending him back.  But his life will be permanently affected.  He will never gain parity with his peer group.

 

If a kid hits puberty at age 20 because they decide to quit taking their puberty blockers, their lives will never be the same, even if the effects are reversed 100%.  (If that's actually the case.)  That's a permanent effect.

 

OK let’s run with your concern over the onset of puberty.

 

A tiny number of kids suffering gender dysmorphia are treated with hormones that impact the onset of their puberty, this treatment is administered by licensed doctors answerable to their medical licensing body and follows approved treatment regimes. The hormones themselves have been tested and licensed as safe for use in the treatment of people.

 

Meanwhile, precious puberty is common place impacting a growing number of children and brings serious physical and mental health problems.

 

So bang on about the tiny number why don’t you.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

OK let’s run with your concern over the onset of puberty.

 

A tiny number of kids suffering gender dysmorphia are treated with hormones that impact the onset of their puberty, this treatment is administered by licensed doctors answerable to their medical licensing body and follows approved treatment regimes. The hormones themselves have been tested and licensed as safe for use in the treatment of people.

 

Meanwhile, precious puberty is common place impacting a growing number of children and brings serious physical and mental health problems.

 

So bang on about the tiny number why don’t you.

 

 

 

It has not been that long when there was only a tiny number of kids suffering gender dysmorphia, now, with all the trans-promoters the numbers are increasing dramatically. 

 

If, or more likely when, the trans-promoters have their way there will be many more kids on puberty blockers and having gender reassignment surgeries. 

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

It has not been that long when there was only a tiny number of kids suffering gender dysmorphia, now, with all the trans-promoters the numbers are increasing dramatically. 

 

If, or more likely when, the trans-promoters have their way there will be many more kids on puberty blockers and having gender reassignment surgeries. 

It’s you who has the Crystal ball today.

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It has not been that long when there was only a tiny number of kids suffering gender dysmorphia, now, with all the trans-promoters the numbers are increasing dramatically. 

 

If, or more likely when, the trans-promoters have their way there will be many more kids on puberty blockers and having gender reassignment surgeries. 

How do you know?

 

It wasn't that long ago only a few people suffered from dementia. Or so it seemed.

The fact is, many people were suffering but due to the limits of medical science at the time, many went undiagnosed.

 

It's really that simple. 

 

Transgenderism cannot be promoted. It us not a life choice.

7 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Transgenderism cannot be promoted. It us not a life choice.

Transgenderism is relentlessly promoted by the media, by the government, by bureaucrats and the legal system, in schools and kindergartens and of course by Transgender Inc. itself, which benefits to the tune of billions of dollars by turning healthy children into grotesque freaks who need lifelong attention to maintain their crippled physiques.

 

It is a sick and evil business.

 

9 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

Transgenderism is relentlessly promoted by the media, by the government, by bureaucrats and the legal system, in schools and kindergartens and of course by Transgender Inc. itself, which benefits to the tune of billions of dollars by turning healthy children into grotesque freaks who need lifelong attention to maintain their crippled physiques.

 

It is a sick and evil business.

 

This Transgender Inc you speak of, is it listed on the stock exchange?

 

Or it a figment of you imagination?

 

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This Transgender Inc you speak of, is it listed on the stock exchange?

 

Or it a figment of you imagination?

 

Neither. Just like Murder Inc.

18 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

Transgenderism is relentlessly promoted by the media, by the government, by bureaucrats and the legal system, in schools and kindergartens and of course by Transgender Inc. itself, which benefits to the tune of billions of dollars by turning healthy children into grotesque freaks who need lifelong attention to maintain their crippled physiques.

 

It is a sick and evil business.

 

If someone sat next to me on the bus and came out with that nonsense, I’d move seats and get off at the next stop.

 

42 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

Transgenderism is relentlessly promoted by the media, by the government, by bureaucrats and the legal system, in schools and kindergartens and of course by Transgender Inc. itself, which benefits to the tune of billions of dollars by turning healthy children into grotesque freaks who need lifelong attention to maintain their crippled physiques.

 

It is a sick and evil business.

 

It would appear I have a better grasp of the facts regarding Transgenderism than you do.

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

So, it is not your position that very rare is acceptable? I agree, I think it is entirely unacceptable. It seems it is only the trans-promoters that find it acceptable. 

And health harming abreactions to vaccines are very rare. Does this justify banning them?

Edited October 5, 20232 yr by placeholder

12 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

How do you know?

 

Knowledge and information gained from training in advancements in medical science, years of working in care and support of  transgender people, study, experience of dealing with mental health, illness and condition.

11 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

It would appear I have a better grasp of the facts regarding Transgenderism than you do.

It would only appear that way to you and other trans-promoters. 

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

And health harming abreactions to vaccines are very rare. Does this justify banning them?

You and I were discussing gender affirming surgical procedures on children, and yes, I think they should be banned, and to be clear, I think the people promoting and performing them are monsters. 

 

Yes, "health harming abreactions" are an unfortunate side effect of vaccines, but that is not so with "gender affirming" surgical procedures on children. Gender affirming surgical procedures on children are intentional, rare or otherwise. You seem to think they're okay and should be permitted as long as they are "very rare", I do not.

 

Your position seems to be that gender affirming surgical procedures on children are "health harming abreactions", yet as long as they are "very rare" they should be allowed. So, what percentage of children do you think should be made victims of these intentional health harming abreactions before it becomes a concern? 

 

Incidentally, I believe you were all for vaccine mandates, do you also think gender affirming care should be mandated for children suffering from gender dysmorphia? 

 

If I am wrong about you supporting vaccine mandates, I sincerely apologize.