LED lights and insulation

[narkeddiver]

I am looking at installing insulation in the space above my upstairs ceiling 

 

Currently I have e27 lightbulbs installed and the housing protrudes into the ceiling space

 

Im guessing that laying insulation over the top of the light housing is a bad idea but can I lay it around the fittings or do I need to change to a ‘flatter’ light fitting?

 

Thanks in advance

[poobear]

Hello In order to insulate above the ceiling I took out all the surface  lights and installed Sylvania 12W Warm  BRAVO CURVE LED RD SURface lights. because I did not want the air to escape through the holes in the ceiling or electrical connections up in the insulation. I also like the light and color temp so much I used these lights in rooms that I did not even insulate. They a quite expensive at about 130 each on Lazada but I have never had one go out and much prefer the light. Warm and bright but not yellow.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, narkeddiver said:

Im guessing that laying insulation over the top of the light housing is a bad idea but can I lay it around the fittings or do I need to change to a ‘flatter’ light fitting?

Is the isolation a fire risk? Does it burn?

In general LED lamps don't get very hot. But if they are more powerful then they can get hot.

I suggest make sure you have nonflammable isolation (or whatever the correct name is). 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

In general LED lamps don't get very hot. But if they are more powerful then they can get hot.

That is a rather sweeping statement. It has elements of truth but is far too general.

LEDs can be run at various power levels, the majority of less expensive fittings run them as hard as they can, this gets them really quiet hot so much so that my 100W 8,000 lumen bulbs have multiple cooling fans, though these are rather too bright for general use.

 

But if you open a cheap 6W bulb it will likely have very few LED packages with multiple LEDs in each one and it will get quite hot(probably enough to burn you if handled). But then if you buy a 6W bulb that is several times the price it will have many more LED packages with only 1 or 2 LEDs in each one it is likely to get warm but is likely not to be able to burn.

 

There is also the fact that the hotter the LEDs get the shorter the lifespan. LEDs in walk-in freezers will run for many years 

 

In short give all LEDs good ventilation, they will have a longer life.

Edited October 5, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[bluejets]

9 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Is the isolation a fire risk? Does it burn?

Insulation associated with the fitting internal components, any wiring attached, all contribute to the need to keep ceiling insulation at a distance whether flammable or not.

Also consider the de-rating factor applied to any and all ceiling cabling while using on the ceiling insulation.

In my opinion, any ceiling insulation should be up top, just under the roof battons, to keep as much heat out as possible.

Anywhere else is simply "an oven" keeping any hot air inside.

Edited October 5, 2023 by bluejets

[OneMoreFarang]

7 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

In short give all LEDs good ventilation, they will have a longer life.

Obviously, you are right that they can get hot. And it seems some LED lights are created in a way to show "wow, they are bright", and hot.

But if you use LED lights which are not so bright, then normally they don't get too hot.

 

As an alternative to good ventilation a good cooling element like aluminum is an option.

 

 

[007 RED]

Recently had the roof of our house insulated with SCG, 6 inch thick fiberglass. 

 

Because of my age, my wife decided that crawling around in the roof space was not a good idea.  As a result we got SCG's local contractor to do the work for us.  

 

The contactor did an initial survey and made a couple of recommendations. 

 

Firstly, he advised that it would be necessary to cut the insulation around the couple of lights that protruded up into the roof space.  He said this was to ensure that any heat given off by the light bulbs would not cause a problem with the insulation material.  He advised that this would reduce, albeit by a small amount, the thermal insulation of matting in the vicinity of the lights.

 

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, he advised that the insulation tape which was wrapped around electrical cables in the roof space, which had been 'twist' joined together, were showing their age (age hardening).  He said the there was a risk, again albeit small, that if a live wire touched the aluminium outer cover of the insulation material, this could potentially result in fire or someone being electrocuted.

 

After discussions with the contractor, I decided that the lights which protruded into the roof space would be replaced with flush low power LEDs, thus negating the need to cut the insulation material and reduce its thermal efficiency.  I had already replaced all the other incandescent light fittings in the house with LEDs, so this seemed a logical step.

 

Following the contractors advice, I agreed that he would reinsulate all of the 'twist' joined cables withing the roof space and cover each joint with heat shrink as a double precaution.  Obviously this would incur an additional cost.

 

The installation required 20 rolls of 6 inch x 4 meters of fiberglass matting.  It took the contractor (3 men), 3 hours plus to reinsulate all the electrical cable joints and then insulate the roof space.

 

There was a small charge for the initial survey (250THB), but this was refunded when we made final payment for the work which the contractor carried out.

 

Had I decided to do the job myself, the cost of the insulation material purchased via HomePro would have been 10,000THB plus delivery.  The Contractor charged me 15,000THB, minus the initial survey fee.

 

I have to say that since the fiberglass insulation has been installed, it seems much cooler in the upstairs rooms at the end of a hot sunny day.

[narkeddiver]

@007 RED - thanks for the detailed reply, it really helps ????

 

That is the same material that I’m looking at using - it seems like replacing the lights is a good idea, I’ll see f I an get my missus to find out who our local SCB bod is

 

i may keep the E27 bulbs in the bathroom - currently they are smart bulbs linked to a motion sensor so that come on automatically at a low brightness during the night. The bathroom doesn’t have air on and has ventilation to the outside so hopefully the additional reduction in thermal efficiency won’t cause too much of an issue

[007 RED]

2 hours ago, narkeddiver said:

 

That is the same material that I’m looking at using - it seems like replacing the lights is a good idea, I’ll see f I an get my missus to find out who our local SCB bod is

 

I had a look back at my records for the insulation of the roof.  I found the SCG Home Facilities on the web at https://www.scghome.com/customer-service

 

The site is in Thai, but if you are using Google it will translate for you.  If you click on the 'Home Products' facility on the top menu bar it will take you to all the services that they offer.  On that page scroll down to the 'Thermal Insulation Installation' box and you will find all the details there including details of contact there contractor.

 

I found the company, and their contractor, very good.

 

Hope that helps.

[bluejets]

15 hours ago, 007 RED said:

Recently had the roof of our house insulated with SCG, 6 inch thick fiberglass. 

Just be warned that any insulation with aluminium or foil covering installed on ceiling is considered extremely dangerous.

It was used on the ceiling in Aus in the "crazy polly period" where everybody jack and his mates were issued with "insulation installation licences" in an attempt to carry out the insulation era while the pollies were still in office.

Turns out ( surprise .........surprise) that it is conductive and a couple of people including one apprentice were electrocuted working in the ceiling space after the install.

Now some will say....what about safety switches............ well, they don't save you if incoming mains are exposed or become faulty.....and as it turns out, diluties know no better.

 

End result was, any used had to be removed and now it is a mandatory requirement that all power be cut at the main switch before entering a ceiling by any tradesperson.

Sadly though, the D*** heads who make these rules failed to recognise that incoming mains cannot be isolated, at least by "any tradesperson".

Then there are the situations such as hospitals but that's another story.