Wife Ordered Out Of Country Update! Not Good News

[roygsd]

Hi Scouser,

Having previously lived in Scouse province for 20+ years (albeit on the one-eyed -city side of the river)

where I was doing battle on a daily basis with local government officers I wholehartedly agree that nothing is more likely to delay or otherwise impede a swift and safe delelivery of the "right result" than to threaten a government employee with tape recording conversations and the like.

I seem to remember a posting of yours of a few years ago when you discribed a situation where a " smart alec" tried to get one over on a certain Immigration Officer who was checking out this mans wife or G/F's right of entry. I believe he smuggly told the Officer something along the lines of " ask her what you like mate, your just wasting your time coz she dont speak a word of English and it will take you all day to

get a translator down here".

In that situation the Officer made the "smart alec and his lady" wait a few hours for an interview where he

sat down and asked the lady a few simple questions in perfect thai before letting them go on their merry way!

I stand to be corrected but I think the Officer was yourself?

Firstly it is pointless as the officer dealing with the case has likley heard it all before and certainly they will know any evidence gathered by tape recording without prior knowledge of the other party is inadmissable in law, all it does is to place pressure of the officer personally who will as a result wll do their job exactly to the book and if that happens to disadvantage or delay the "smart alec" thats not their problem.

Over theyears I have seriously pissed off officials from Government Ministers to the rceptionist's, on every occassion I was proven right in the end but that is not much of a victory when a decision is delayed for months and in some cases for years.

Being right is fine, but far better to bite the bullet and go out of your way not to inflame a situation unless it is absolutly unavoidable.

Easier said than done but it usually pays dividends in the end as you obviously were making clear in your earlier posting.

Regards

Roygsd

[the scouser]

In that situation the Officer made the "smart alec and his lady" wait a few hours for an interview where he

sat down and asked the lady a few simple questions in perfect thai before letting them go on their merry way!

I stand to be corrected but I think the Officer was yourself?

Your recollection is half right, although I didn't make them wait hours: I spoke to the woman in question immediately. The point there was that the smart a*se had assumed that as he can't speak Thai, then no Westerner can, and the satisfaction was gained from showing him up. I would never profess my Thai to be perfect, though.

However, I don't see the relevance of this to tape recording. When in a formal interview setting, an immigration officer has to keep contemporaneous notes which must be given to the interviewee if requested. Where an individual is under arrest and detained at a police station, the provisions of PACE will be adhered to, and the interview tape recorded.

By the way, it wasn't me who suggested recording phone calls.

Scouse.

[chlear909]

what i meant was they will run you roun in circles like you are doing but if you stay they will sort it to a simple remedy for you,,,why waste the energy,,,they dont give a d.. anyway really,,,

are any of these other replys from anyone with REAL experience,,,doesnt look like it,,,ive been thru all that good but useless time wasting advice and am happily in th usa with my wife

Seeing as you are so knowledgeable, please can you cite the relevant U.K. law and policy upon which you're relying for your assertions?

Scouse.

#########the relevant U.K. law and policy upon which you're relying for your assertions?###########

well i would do that but it doesnt ever correlate with direct experience so here is that for you if you really want it .i just got a visa to usa for my wife,took 5 years cuz im poor.and i have several friends that have got different sorts of visas to usa and uk and n zeal..all with different experiences .they ALL  say,,, they could never get a consistant approach to each of their cases law-wise.this is all from 10 years of being here in asia with them as it happened.in

each case the applicant spent months of travel to london 

and elsware meeting and 

dealing with obtaining and notarizing and and and to london again and and and missing work etc etc travel expenses etc etc.....after all that in every case the imm  authority would take a whole different approach and just simplifyed everything,,they signed one paper and were done.all the travel and missed work was deamed completly un-nessecary(sp) and opologized for .what do you want an opology or the lost travel and work $.all these guys live far from london which they are still angry about having to go into over and over again.anyone out there who lives in the country who doesnt like going to the city and waiting in an ole office for hours for nothing,is this understandable yet?

     just let them know exactly where you are,stay in touch by phone and they will happily set up a simple plan for you or do it their very inefficient way and lose $,this was an easy choice for me .

[roygsd]

Hi Scouser, Sorry I should have been clearer, I know you did not suggest tape recording, you were clearly against it.

I was in agreement with you and I was ( badly it seems) providing a simple example to prove the point that it is usualy very unwise to be offensive or hostile with people in authority.

Most people would likely be offended, or at least to be very guarded if they were to be told someone was tape recording their conversations, it implies distrust and it in only human nature for the barriers to go up

and that is the last thing you want to happen in my opinion.

I hope that clears things up

roygsd

[Paulwilday]

Today received reply form Home Office saying,

I refer to your spouse's letter dated 9th July 2007 requesting reconsideration of you application.

The secretary of state's policy is not to exercise discretion unless there are clear exceptional compassionate circumstances which have not previously been considered and which merit the exercise of discretion outside the Immigration rules.

The decision made in respect of this application has been carefully considered and Human Rights has been considered, but we are not prepared to exercise discretion in this instance.

Consequently we are not prepared to take any further action. You are reminded that your client should now leave the UK without delay. If he fails to do so he may be prosecuted for an offence under the Immigration Act as detailed in the notice of refusal.

Thats the letter word for word, notice the part where it refers to the Client! what Client? it's written directly to my wife not a solicitor. And it say "He" rather than she twice, what a bunch tossers these people are.

I can't believe their not prepared to bend a little considering it was their advice that caused all this mess in the first place. They haven't mentioned if they listened back to the conversations i pointed out to them in the letter.

I've tried the diplomatic approach, that hasn't worked so now it looks like its going to get expensive and waste alot of peoples time. I've also booked appointment with my MP for 27th July, hope he can help.

Thanks for everyones help so far, shame i haven't got good news to report, but it's not over yet. If they want a fight they've got one.

[apetley]

I agree, total tossers

Have you involved any Immigration Specialists yet? Davies Khan have my full recommendation after excellent advice in the past for both myself and a friend.

How about the press too? Sure they will be interested in a story like this one especially as it's about a previously legally settled family and not the usual asylum seeker.

Anyway, best of luck.

[Paulwilday]

Sorry should of put update on here rather than made new topic as anyone new won't know the story. Please refer back and help if you can. Thanks

Paul.

[Mahout Angrit]

Paul

Did they return her passport, how can she leave without it. You may have read in the 'general' forum that you are not alone (although I know that is not much comfort to you). It seems it's a new policy. See here and click on "Thai mother to be deported".

Although they claim that she is being deported due to her lack of understanding of English, you can slow the video down and read the reply from the home office and it clearly is for two reasons

1) she applied for ILR without doing the life in UK test the HO then tried to evaluate FLR for her but 2) they found she'd applied about 2 months after her leave to remain expired. She was told to leave.

The annoying thing in your case is that they have not replied to your suggestion that you were following their instructions.

I dont know how much you expect to pay for legal advice but it is my belief that if your wife returned to Thailand and applied for another settlement visa they could hardly refuse it (unless they refuse her due to her 'illegal stay') Maybe some comment about this from those 'in the know'

Edited July 18, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[chuchok]

Can you get scouse involved?As mentioned by apetley Davies Khan could be worth their weight in gold.Remember,Scouse knows immigration from first hand experience.

[Paulwilday]

To save confusion and let anyone new read the whole story please leave reply on original post.

Sorry my mistake.

[Lancashirelad]

Sorry should of put update on here rather than made new topic as anyone new won't know the story. Please refer back and help if you can. Thanks Paul.

can we have a link to the new thread here?

[Paulwilday]

No haven't got passport back, thats at the local inforcment agency. Not sure if i should contact them or leave it for a while. Just hope they don't come round kicking the door down!

[Lancashirelad]

To save confusion and let anyone new read the whole story please leave reply on original post.

Sorry my mistake.

I'm sure a helpful mod might step in and tidy the threads up?

[samran]

To save confusion and let anyone new read the whole story please leave reply on original post.

Sorry my mistake.

I'm sure a helpful mod might step in and tidy the threads up?

via the magic of the internet, threads merged..

[Paulwilday]

Mahout Angrit thanks for video link, the stories are almost 100% the same. I had hoped that our daughter was our ace card but seeing as their prepared to do it to a family with 2 children it's very worrying.

[Jersey_UK]

Mahout Angrit thanks for video link, the stories are almost 100% the same. I had hoped that our daughter was our ace card but seeing as their prepared to do it to a family with 2 children it's very worrying.

Not much I can say, expect to express sympathy..........

The dead hand of bureacracy strikes again

I am sure that (eventually) common sense will prevail, but I am afraid I have nothing concrete to back up that statement apart from the vague hope / assumption that we are not always governed by people with a "Computer says nooooo" attitude.........but I think you are doing the sensible thing in not putting your head in the sand over this - now that you have tried (and failed) to deal with things in a simple and rational manner, if it was me I would now be looking for proffesional assistance both for the advice and also to give comfort that these folk will take yer case seriously and probably an MP for teh same reason (I.e actually look at your case).

[maymay]

Mahout Angrit thanks for video link, the stories are almost 100% the same. I had hoped that our daughter was our ace card but seeing as their prepared to do it to a family with 2 children it's very worrying.

Paul

Have been following your topic with interest as I am somewhat in a similar boat. My circumstances are slightly different to yours but I have experienced almoust the same injustice from the Home Office. My GF made an application for FLR(O) on compasionate grounds and was advised to do so on the phone by the HO (also legal opinion was taken and the view was that we had an extremely good case and should get it). After consideration of our application it was refused. We received a blunt refusal letter quoting immigration rules that didn't even apply to our case. PLEASE NOTE HERE THAT WE WERE INFORMED THAT OUR GROUNDS OF APPEAL WERE LIMITED AND WE WERE INVITED TO SUBMIT ANY EXTRA INFORMATION THAT WOULD HELP OUR CASE, NO MENTION OF ANY TIME LIMITS OR APPEAL FORMS INCLOSED. We replyed immediatly as we had issues with the content of their refusal and quoted all the immigration rules and numbers etc highlighting their inept reading of our case. The HO replied exactly 10 days after the initial refusal letter was sent out reconfirming their original letter of refusal and quoting all the same language of deportation etc you receiced. At this point we enlisted the services of an imigration lawyer and started an appeal. Lawyer wrote to the HO with a strong letter highlighting all their legal inconsistances in administering their own imigration law - TO DATE THEY DIDNT EVEN BOTHER TO REPLY. The AIT judge has kicked our appeal out because it was an out of date appeal ( he said we should have known about the 10 days). Now here is I guess my point (sorry it took so long) the sneeky B*****ds at the HO enginered their second letter to us outside the 10 days appeal timetable. In addition the initial letter was also very vague to lead us to believe that we were still in a dialog with them when infact the 10 days clock was ticking. We have now instructed a barrister and are awaiting his opinion as to whether we have grounds for a judicial review. If we can and hang the cost I will take those imberseals all the way through the highest court I can find because they have absolutly no rights to get away with this level of unprofessional inconpitence within the entrusted position they have been given.

As you can see from the above we have floundered in our plight and are doing all we can.

My strongest advise to you my friend is GO SEE AN IMIGRATION LAWYER NOW. You can so easily wall foul of the imigration rules as we did on the 10 day appeal limit. I fear that you may also be outside this 10 day limit. I believe the HO have an unwriten policy to refuse all compasionate appeals and just supply stock answer and s*d the humanitarian consiquences. But that doesn't stop them from banking the fees.

Good luck my friend but please go see an imigration lawyer

Yorkie

(sorry about any spelling- cant get this spell check to work in here)

[the scouser]

Did they return her passport, how can she leave without it.

Hanging on to the passport is a means of checking the person has left the country. If Paul's wife were to book a flight to leave, she would then inform the Local Enforcement Office of the details and they would serve her with a notice as an overstayer and arrange for the passport to be collected from the immigration office at the airport of departure.

As an interesting aside, any voluntary departures of illegal entrants/overstayers are included in the removed figure, so when the immigration minister gets on his hind legs in Parliament and announces that in the last quarter 28,000 people have been removed from the U.K., he doesn't mention that 27,812 of these went under their own steam.

Paul,

You really should seek professional immigration advice. I am not saying this in the hope that you'll come to me, but, rather, it is in your wife's best interests. Why not try that firm you mentioned to me when we spoke?

You should bear in mind the Home Office marriage policy DP3/96 which basically states that they cannot seek to remove someone who has been in a genuine marriage for at least two years before enforcement action is taken, and it unreasonable for the British spouse to settle in the other country. One of the criteria by which they judge the latter is whether you've lived continuously in the UK for the last ten years. If you have, it is unreasonable, by their own estimation, to expect you to accompany your wife to Thailand.

Scouse.

[Paulwilday]

Will do, I'll contact them tomorrow. Should of done it when you said but i thought it was worth a try, and sort it out without the expense. Never mind.

Does anyone know what would happen if my wife was sent back, would she be labeled a trouble maker and find it hard to return? Someone mentioned to me that if you are removed you can't apply to return for 3 years, is that true?

[the scouser]

Does anyone know what would happen if my wife was sent back, would she be labeled a trouble maker and find it hard to return? Someone mentioned to me that if you are removed you can't apply to return for 3 years, is that true?

If your wife were to be removed, there is no prohibition upon her returning providing that she has a visa. The 3-year rule which you mentioned applies to those who have been deported; i.e. the Home Sec. has personally signed a deportation order in their name.

Scouse.

[Eff1n2ret]

You should bear in mind the Home Office marriage policy DP3/96 which basically states that they cannot seek to remove someone who has been in a genuine marriage for at least two years before enforcement action is taken, and it unreasonable for the British spouse to settle in the other country. One of the criteria by which they judge the latter is whether you've lived continuously in the UK for the last ten years. If you have, it is unreasonable, by their own estimation, to expect you to accompany your wife to Thailand.

Is it not that they should have been in a genuine marriage and together in the UK for 2 years prior to the commencement of enforcement action? The OP in this case benefits, because although she entered the UK too late to qualify for ILR under the rules. she had certainly been here for more than 2 years before they got round to refusing her. which arguably was the commencement of enforcement action, depending on what the first letter said. They have got their procedures in such a tangle, it's about time someone put a stop to it.

It's the picking on easy targets which is so unpleasant.

Edited July 18, 2007 by the scouser
Insertion of quote tags for clarity.

[the scouser]

Is it not that they should have been in a genuine marriage and together in the UK for 2 years prior to the commencement of enforcement action?

Yes, you're quite right.

In this instance, that should logically be the case, as Paul's wife entered on a spouse visa which will have been of two years' validity.

Scouse.

[the gent]

I suspect you and others in the same boat are victims of the new Border and Immigration Agency philosophy espoused by the vertically challenged junior minister in charge, Liam Byrne, a prematurely balding sycophant anxious to impress his stalinist masters.In essence, they are striving to send a message that the UK is getting tough with those it considers as a threat to what may pass for the weft and weave of the fabric of our society.

In reality, they are simply picking on soft targets and using a very blunt instrument at that. It is a short term strategy that will only pick up on those cases bereft of merit and folk in your circumstances have actually nothing to fear provided that you press the right buttons.

As stated previously by the cognoscenti of the forum, it's about time you engaged representation and ended their bullying, for that is precisely what it is.

Remember, the people you are dealing with are clerks instructed by idiots governed by talentless professional politicians who only answer to public opinion and a good clogging from the Judiciary.

Please do not worry, there is no prospect whatsoever that your wife will be removed from the UK against her wishes.

When all this is over, just remember which way to vote next time.

[roygsd]

Hi Paul,

Very disapointed at the treatment you have recieved, I suggest that you get a copy of the document scouser referred to DC???? and post a copy, by recorded delivery to the Officer concerned and ask them to explain to you if they have made an error in not giving approriate consideration to that document/guidelines? I woulld also ask them to reconsidere their decision in line with the Human Right's act in respect of your right to respect for family life as you feel that the pevious decision appears to be incompatible with the HR Act.

I would also mark the letter with copies directly to

1. Minister responsible for that Department

2. The Ministers opposite numbers in the Conservate and Liberal Parties

I dont know where you live unfortunately but if in the london area a letter to Ken Livingstone would cost you nothing but a stamp.

YOU ARE GOING TO GET THIS RESOLVED IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHEN.

Do not stop applying pressure they will not come to the house and take your wife away

ROYGSD

[Paulwilday]

Just got back from Solicitors Leonard & co in Southampton, and to say I'm not happy with the advice is an understatement!

The Solicitor i saw was Sangita Shah and from the off she didn't look too interested and amazingly ask me what the problem was with just sending my wife back and her reapplying for a visa in Thailand. I mentioned the Home Office policy DP3/96, which she brushed off as something they could easily get around. She told me " It's not a law, they can use it at their discretion". When i said i didn't want my daughter to go to Thailand as she can't speak Thai, she replied "Children adapt". She then got a book out for ten minutes, aimlessly flicking through until announcing what she needed wasn't in that book, it was online. Safe to say i was a little stunned by all this. Then she said she'll look into it and contact me in two weeks.

To be honest i think she reallied this case involves work and wanted to advise me on what would be the easiest for her, not what was best for us. You'd like to think any good Solicitor would be up for the challenge, but she certainly isn't.

Tomorrow I'm going to see Biscoe Solicitors in Portsmouth, I've had to wait over a week to see them because their so busy, hopefully their up for the fight! Scouse checked them out for me and says their good.

How pointless would it be to send her back only to come straight back again! Surely that alone would show how much of a farce this hole thing is.

[the scouser]

She's right that DP3/96 is policy rather than law, but it is the Home Office's own published policy and is not discretionary: if your wife can demonstrate that she falls within the criteria, the Home Office should not instigate enforcement action.

Better luck with the second lot. If you're not satisfied with them, I know a reputable firm in Liverpool which would be able to assist with representations to the Home Office.

Scouse.

[windosill]

How pointless would it be to send her back only to come straight back again! Surely that alone would show how much of a farce this hole thing is.

I'm having problems too. I was working in Thailand for 20 months and during this time I met my wife and we had our son. I was teaching and only earning £450 a month which I didn't mind when it was just me and the Mrs, but once our son was born this was not enough as I wanted to return to the UK about once a year with my family and flights would have been 3 or 4 months wages. Anyway, to cut a long story short, we were planning on coming back to the UK last Xmas with the newborn baby for a 3 week holiday and my wife had a 6 month visa accepted. Just before Xmas I was offered a job in the UK that was too good to turn down at that moment in time, so I contacted the Embassy and asked them what to do about my wife's visa. Their advise was to go to the UK on the 6 month Visitor Visa and return after 6 months and apply for a settlement visa. I took this advise and we landed in the UK late last year. We decided to go back to Thailand as a family over Easter this year in order to apply for a Settlement Visa. However, we put in all the paperwork and the Visa was refused even though we had been living there for almost 6 months and not claimed a penny off the state and I was working full-time earning £24K per year. The Entry Clearance Office wasn't "satisfied that you and any dependants will be maintained adequately without recourse to public funds or employment." This wound me up because my wife's only dependant is our son who is a UK citizen. Having been refused the Settlement Visa (36,000 Baht) we then applied less than a week later for a 2 Year Visitor Visa (18,000 Baht) which was accepted! This is not great because my wife can not work on this visa and has to go back to Thailand every 6 motnhs. Total cost of the trip for flights, visas and spending money was £3000!

We are going back again at the start of September to apply for the Settlement Visa again as my wife wants to work part-time in out local Thai restaurant as we are going to be struggling for cash purely due to the amount we are spending on visa application in Thailand! It's pathetic that a young family can't stay together, I am 25 and my wife is 22 and our son is coming up to 1 and UK Immigration are making it hard for us to be together!

Edited July 25, 2007 by gdnuttall

[the scouser]

I think strategically you made a mistake in applying for the visit visa following the settlement refusal: you should have fought the settlement corner.

Having said that, how on Earth they could refuse a settlement visa on the basis of a perceived lack of funds and then grant a visit visa, is beyond anyone's ken.

Scouse.

[windosill]

I think strategically you made a mistake in applying for the visit visa following the settlement refusal: you should have fought the settlement corner.

Having said that, how on Earth they could refuse a settlement visa on the basis of a perceived lack of funds and then grant a visit visa, is beyond anyone's ken.

Scouse.

Thanks Scouse. We are currently appealing the decision - it's another story. We needed to come back to the UK quickly after the refusal of the Settlement Visa due to my work commitments. My wife's 6 month visa was almost up and so we thought the 2 year visitor visa was our next best option as I didn't want to be apart from my wife and young son.

We registered the Appeal with the AIT at the end of March and we didn't hear anything for 2 months, so I contacted the Embassy in Bangkok who informed me that they had not been sent the paperwork by the AIT. I then contacted AIT who insisted they had sent it in mid April. I have just been informed by the Embassy in Bangkok that they now have the paperwork and the appeal is being looked at and they have to reply to the AIT by 6th September. It's all been taking too long, as my wife has to leave the country in September and at the advise of our MP we have decided to go back to Thailand and reapply. Funds are running low now after shelling out for flights again and my wife needs to get the Settlment Visa so that she can work - I hope it gets sorted this time otherwise it will be a never ending circle.

[digitele]

the scouser

totster

Where is Bendix? As a Yank I know less then nothing about the UK and their Visa Laws.

Having said that, Sounds like a TROLL to drum up UK based BG's i.e. imported UK BG's Husband bu$iness.

The Scouser, the Scouser. TV Pro's recommend, with the drama in which the UK embassy interviews

these BG's before they go to the UK...Good for TV. Plenty of quaid to be had on this angle.

Touster, free or paid service, Please help! They need you. I need you. I need the entertainment

Please Act. The stage is set.