Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Thanks, I didn't remember that. So, yes, I guess they could be called "Freedom Fighters" because of the above explanation.

Can you tell your freedom fighters that the families are waiting...........the ICJ has demanded their immediate release. Oh wait, the freedom fighters don't care and are mocking with a sick video to prove it.

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Wobblybob said:

You may seeing you asked so nicely. They (Hamas & and their devoted followers) are so brainwashed that is as they believe were put on this Earth for to kill the Israelis and drive them from their land. 

 

Did they tell you that? It may be that they do but that won't be the only reason. How about explaining precisely what is Israeli land and what is Palestinian land? How about also explaining the racist and genocidal comments made by various Israeli government ministers who somehow managed to be popular enough to become elected. Comments that demonstrate they hold Palestinians in the same regard as you claim Palestinians hold Israelis.

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I just don't understand why you go on and on like this. I disagree with everything you say above. The only one, the first one, depends on what you take the word "country" to mean. Since you've objected to it so much, I've changed my wording and now refer to it as a "territory" or just a "land." Anyway, all that's before the UN made it an official state.  

 

There are accepted terms in use. You try to introduce your own terms into the discussion. Your terms have very little basis in fact and reality, they are not helpful, and they are misleading. Conversing with other requires an agreed upon common ground. You insist on la la land.

 

It is not a question of you disagreeing with me. You disagree with reality. With facts.

[Wobblybob]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

Did they tell you that? It may be that they do but that won't be the only reason. How about explaining precisely what is Israeli land and what is Palestinian land? How about also explaining the racist and genocidal comments made by various Israeli government ministers who somehow managed to be popular enough to become elected. Comments that demonstrate they hold Palestinians in the same regard as you claim Palestinians hold Israelis.

How about you stop making excuses for these monsters, "freedom fighters" my giddy aunt, still if it upsets you the terminology that describes these cretins I'm afraid that is something you're just going to have to live with!

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

A murder is still a murder even if the murderer hasn't been found, much less convicted of a murder. Your definition is flawed.

 

@ozimoron

 

Ah, so you do read my posts. Too funny.

 

And no, murders have to be proven to be murders. There's a process involved, and it's a bit more intricate than saying 'it's a murder'.

Any other bogus analogies which don't make your point you want to try?

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, and those reasons are mostly that they back Israel. 

 

That's your opinion. It is not based on fact. It is not based on the reasoning provided for designating Hamas as such. You can look all of this up pretty easily.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Your intention here is to portray Hamas has having no interest in any wider motive beyond terrorizing Israelis because they hate Israelis. Actually being drawn into why that might be so is kryptonite for war crimes deniers.

 

@ozimoron

 

I'm-not-a-Hamas-apologist post coming in 10..9...8....7...

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, Purdey said:

While the ICJ doesn't have a military force, the UN does have international peacekeepers that it has used in the past to separate antagonists. Having said that, I doubt Hamas or Israel would want the fighting stopped.

 

The UN does not have any forces of its own. Member countries 'contribute' forces if they wish to. Further, UN peace keeping forces are usually deployed under two major conditions - cease of hostilities, both sides agreeing to presence and mandate of said forces. Considering they are pretty useless in Lebanon, and were useless in Syria, not sure how that will solve anything.

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

If we are discussing the act of doing so then, yes, it's appropriate to call them terrorists. There is however a wider discussion to be had about why they are doing it. Part of that would be to ask them. Some people already have and they said they were fighting for freedom from Israeli occupation. The term freedom fighters becomes unavoidable IN THAT CONTEXT.

 

This directly parallels the question of calllng uniformed soldiers war criminals. Depending on the context they can be both. The world is not all black and white.

 

@ozimoron

 

What 'wider discussion'? Hamas is designated a terrorist organization by a whole lot of Western countries, and some others. Who designates them as Freedom Fighters? Iran? Some Arab countries (not all)? Russia?

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

May I ask you why? There's a court case in The Hague which might answer that question in time.

 

@ozimoron

 

May I ask you why the PA - and the organizations it consists of, do not? Resistance to Israel, standing up for Palestinian rights does not equate or justify the Hamas position. You, for some reason, try to.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Did they tell you that? It may be that they do but that won't be the only reason. How about explaining precisely what is Israeli land and what is Palestinian land? How about also explaining the racist and genocidal comments made by various Israeli government ministers who somehow managed to be popular enough to become elected. Comments that demonstrate they hold Palestinians in the same regard as you claim Palestinians hold Israelis.

 

@ozimoron

 

You seem to be totally uninterested by Hamas's agenda. All you ever go on about (whether in response to related issues raised or otherwise) is Israel Bad. You do not seem to care when Hamas (or Palestinian) speakers make bad statements. You do not seem to care about territorial issues seen through the prism of the Hamas Charter. No, it's just Israel this and Israel that.

[ozimoron]

15 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

How about you stop making excuses for these monsters, "freedom fighters" my giddy aunt, still if it upsets you the terminology that describes these cretins I'm afraid that is something you're just going to have to live with!

 

I knew you'd completely swerve the questions I asked, especially since you referred to "their lands" but subsequently refused to elucidate. What's that about?

 

I'll just say one more thing before I put you on ignore.

 

In my view, the lands were originally acquired by the descendants of modern Israelis (many of them anyway) by conquest. That's how all land was acquired in those days and how empires were built. Those people then celebrated that conquest in the book of "my god is better than your god". Some time later, the land was acquired by the descendants of the modern Palestinians through conquest. The then celebrated that conquest in another version of the book of "my god is better than your god". Now the Israelis are again acquiring the land through conquest.  Both have a legitimate right to the land and an equitable solution must be found that doesn't include genocide.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I knew you'd completely swerve the questions I asked, especially since you referred to "their lands" but subsequently refused to elucidate. What's that about?

 

I'll just say one more thing before I put you on ignore.

 

In my view, the lands were originally acquired by the descendants of modern Israelis (many of them anyway) by conquest. That's how all land was acquired in those days and how empires were built. Those people then celebrated that conquest in the book of "my god is better than your god". Some time later, the land was acquired by the descendants of the modern Palestinians through conquest. The then celebrated that conquest in another version of the book of "my god is better than your god". Now the Israelis are again acquiring the land through conquest.  Both have a legitimate right to the land and an equitable solution must be found that doesn't include genocide.

 

@ozimoron

 

Never mind your bogus take on history, but...'descendants'? How does that work, even?

[Wobblybob]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I knew you'd completely swerve the questions I asked, especially since you referred to "their lands" but subsequently refused to elucidate. What's that about?

 

I'll just say one more thing before I put you on ignore.

 

In my view, the lands were originally acquired by the descendants of modern Israelis (many of them anyway) by conquest. That's how all land was acquired in those days and how empires were built. Those people then celebrated that conquest in the book of "my god is better than your god". Some time later, the land was acquired by the descendants of the modern Palestinians through conquest. The then celebrated that conquest in another version of the book of "my god is better than your god". Now the Israelis are again acquiring the land through conquest.  Both have a legitimate right to the land and an equitable solution must be found that doesn't include genocide.

The original post I answered was about someone calling these sadistic cretins...."freedom fighters" I answered the question, sorry you didn't like my honest reply. So again you swerve, duck and dive and then change what we were discussing, these are vile people....why so much empathy for them. Be careful other posters might think you are a less than honest poster....and we wouldn't want that would we.

 

.

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

They back designating a terror group terrorists because of the terror attacks they commit. 

 

 

And you don't consider the indiscriminate IDF bombings and killings in Gaza "terror"?

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

If these barbaric thugs were to burn your house down with all your family in it, would you still be disingenuous and calling them "freedom fighters". 

Wouldn't the act of "burning your house down" most aptly apply to the IDF's indiscriminate bombings in Gaza? What, then, should the IDF be called? 

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Wouldn't the act of "burning your house down" most aptly apply to the IDF's indiscriminate bombings in Gaza? What, then, should the IDF be called? 

No because without the Palestian starting this war nobody would be getting killed, if you feel the need to blame somebody try pointing the finger at Hamas and their prolific followers. Israel has every right to try and make sure another massacre like we saw 100 days ago never happens again!

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

14 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Both of which, IMO, are war crimes. 

 

War crimes are not matters of opinion.

That, of course, is what "IMO" means. These are war crimes "in my (and many others') opinion." You may not agree, and that's your prerogative, just as labeling them "war crimes" or "acts of terror" is mine. 

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

They are fighting to kill Israelis..period. 

Okay, but I'll ignore the period and ask you WHY are they fighting to kill Israelis?

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Okay, but I'll ignore the period and ask you WHY are they fighting to kill Israelis?

Already answered, you need to be more attentive!

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There are accepted terms in use. You try to introduce your own terms into the discussion. Your terms have very little basis in fact and reality, they are not helpful, and they are misleading. Conversing with other requires an agreed upon common ground. You insist on la la land.

 

It is not a question of you disagreeing with me. You disagree with reality. With facts.

I've gone so far as to define, in detail, the terms I use, how I use them, and why. We obviously didn't have an "agreed upon common ground, so I have clearly defined the terms I use that you object to. 

Your main problem is, IMO, that you are extremely arrogant. You think EVERYONE must think the same way you do, accept the same facts, and then draw the same conclusions. If that were the case, there would never be any need for a discussion. It would always just be, yes, yes, yes. That's not how discussion, especially on volatile subjects such as this one, works. They are an exchange of differing ideas, opinions, and, yes, references to "facts" (which I define as just other people's opinions - even if those other people are on the ICJ.) 

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

That's your opinion. It is not based on fact. It is not based on the reasoning provided for designating Hamas as such. You can look all of this up pretty easily.

Yes, many things I post are my opinion. That's what discussions are SUPPOSED to be about.

These Forums are discussion groups, aren't they?

[Bkk Brian]

33 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

And you don't consider the indiscriminate IDF bombings and killings in Gaza "terror"?

No. I stick to facts. Not your fantasies

[WDSmart]

13 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

I knew you'd completely swerve the questions I asked, especially since you referred to "their lands" but subsequently refused to elucidate. What's that about?

 

I'll just say one more thing before I put you on ignore.

 

In my view, the lands were originally acquired by the descendants of modern Israelis (many of them anyway) by conquest. That's how all land was acquired in those days and how empires were built. Those people then celebrated that conquest in the book of "my god is better than your god". Some time later, the land was acquired by the descendants of the modern Palestinians through conquest. The then celebrated that conquest in another version of the book of "my god is better than your god". Now the Israelis are again acquiring the land through conquest.  Both have a legitimate right to the land and an equitable solution must be found that doesn't include genocide.

Yes! Yes! Yes! 👍

[WDSmart]

28 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

No because without the Palestian starting this war nobody would be getting killed, if you feel the need to blame somebody try pointing the finger at Hamas and their prolific followers. Israel has every right to try and make sure another massacre like we saw 100 days ago never happens again!

You've hit upon the argument that is probably the entire basis for all our (and many others on an off this Issue) differing point of view on this issue. And that is your statement above, "Palestian starting this war." This "war" over the rights to the land that is now called Israel has been going on for at least ever since the UN created the state of Israel. It actually has gone on way before that, but I won't go any farther back than that. Don't you understand or accept that fact?

So, I could agree that the Palestinian militant faction Hamas did start this most recent flare-up of the "war" with their horrible, terroristic attack on Israeli civilians on Oct 7. And now, the IDF are continuing the horrible, terroristic killings by their actions in Gaza and the West Bank. I understand these are retaliatory actions, but they will, IMO, not "solve" this "war", but only intensify it, and maybe enlarge it to include other parties (on both sides).

[WDSmart]

33 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Already answered, you need to be more attentive!

If the "why" question had already been answered, what is the purpose of the "period" at the end of your statement, because your statement did not include the "why" the Palestinians were fighting.

[WDSmart]

19 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No. I stick to facts. Not your fantasies

I see both your "facts" and my "fantasies" as just our opinions. 

[Wobblybob]

15 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

If the "why" question had already been answered, what is the purpose of the "period" at the end of your statement, because your statement did not include the "why" the Palestinians were fighting.

How do you select which posts to read or not to read, if you followed the the story of the thread you might not have to keep asking questions of posts that have already been answered! Try and keep up.

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I see both your "facts" and my "fantasies" as just our opinions. 

More of your alternative reality, facts can be backed up with evidence and links, your fantasies cannot

[mooping20Baht]

On 1/26/2024 at 1:30 AM, retarius said:

Obviously guilty from my perspective, you can't murder 25000 innocent people like this, even in a search for revenge. I suspect however that the ICJ will find some technical reason why they don't have jurisdiction in the case, to avoid losing credibility with most of the world.

But the whole Israeli operation seems to be designed to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians and to make the now cleared land available to Israelis. 

 

yes, last few days, they are making plans to put new "settlements" in Gaza. Back in Gaza.

 

Israel has just decided to be lawless, digging their right to apartheid deeper . US National Teachers Union, officially wants a ceasefire, some Student Councils have approved "divestment" at University. It will only grow,  Israel would have called Mandela a "anti semitic terrorist" till the bitter end.