Revenue Department Contact Reports

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Not possible sorry.

 

I would say, that it's likely no foreigner has ever paid tax on their foreign credit card transactions in Thailand or ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts. Take that as you may.

 

Opinions, and 'expert' opinions differ on whether these may form part of taxable/assessable tax income, now and in the future. 

 

 

The issue is NOT whether anyone has or hasn't, the issue IS whether it is or it isn't.

 

This is not directed at you but this debate has become banal and circular, it is pointless to engage in such things, until new evidence is introduced to change the staid boring old arguments that are mostly entrenched emotion. 

 

Over and out

[samtam]

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree and don't agree! In this particular case, it's consensus opinion, Expat Tax has spoken on the subject, as has TRD representatives publically. Until something better comes along to disprove those two sources, that 's what I  prefer to believe. And the evidence is that the UK's HMRC also consider those things assessable income, which further strengthens the case. But once again, people can believe whatever they want, just don't tell me that I'm wrong, just because one small well connected law firm says it is so.

 

Thanks for the links. The TRD Hua Hin seminar mention in a video seems the least supported evidence or argument, (although I appreciate you don't have the time or interest to find the video), so it would be nice to have that from the "horse's mouth", if the TRD horse ever gets around to it.

 

Anticipating that being definitive, I also asked:

Quote

 

If I have a Thai (Pink) ID is that my TIN, or do I formally have to apply for a TIN, and how?

 

Once I have completed my tax form, do I take in in person to the Revenue Department (I'm in Bangkok). Do I get a ticket and wait to be called? Is it then read and agreed, and I pay? Do I pay in cash?

 

 

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask these questions, as I can't remember, having waded through a large portion of the thousands of comments, whether anyone in Bangkok has actually gone to RD Bangkok, and what the process is, as its processes are doubtless different to other offices. Perhaps they've used a tax accountant; MPG are apparently charging THB85,000 for that exercise.

 

Also, if I am liable for paying tax after TEDA, I will start claiming refund of withholding tax, (paid on my THB800K deposit in a Thai Savings account for the last 17 years), but presumably I would only be able to claim for the YE 2024 to avoid a tax audit over those 17 years, so it is probably not worth getting excited about it.

[sometimewoodworker]

22 hours ago, samtam said:

Also, if I am liable for paying tax after TEDA, I will start claiming refund of withholding tax, (paid on my THB800K deposit in a Thai Savings account for the last 17 years), but presumably I would only be able to claim for the YE 2024

You are likely to be able to claim for at least 2023, though there maybe a late return fee, possibly a couple of preceding years by filing late tax returns, AFIK the late filing fee is recently imposed.

 

FWIW I filed a few years ago and the 300+ refund wasn’t worth the bother so I haven’t filed recently 

[smedly]

are you people really exposing yourselves on a voluntary basis ?

 

every thai I know should be paying tax and don't, they don't go after their own so why should you be a volunteer - crazy

Edited July 22 by smedly

[samtam]

Obviously one wants to weigh up the options with the information one knows. Sadly "the information one knows" is very little, given the lack of clarity from the TRD. They may have said what something is, but they haven't said how they intend to implement it, so I suppose the thousands of questions have been an attempt to try and find out. Unfortunately the answers are opinions, interesting as some have been, and boring as most have been. I agree with you, that until there is a definitive detailed workable explanation, we have all wasted a great deal of time and angst.

 

Mine (wasted time and angst), is an attempt to live and abide by the rules, which I know is a silly and novel concept in Thailand, where everything is flexible, depending on who you are, how much you pay etc.

 

It's laughable, but not unexpected that one of the many aspirations of the current administration is to make Thailand a financial hub, as if that can be created from the mess that exists. No one in their right mind is going to buy financial products when goalposts are moved, rules and laws are "flexible", and the system is corrupt. Thailand will never achieve many of its multitudinous hub goals, but "financial hub" is probably the strongest candidate for neverland fantasies.

Edited July 22 by samtam

[smedly]

20 minutes ago, samtam said:

Obviously one wants to weigh up the options with the information one knows. Sadly "the information one knows" is very little, given the lack of clarity from the TRD

if in doubt - do nothing, if not in doubt do nothing unless directed to

 

like I said - they don't collect taxes from many of their own citizens who should be paying tax, there are billions changing hands that TRD ignore, I bring money into this country, if they try to tax it I'm off, way too much hassle to deal with already without that

[Lorry]

13 hours ago, smedly said:

every thai I know should be paying tax and don't

You don't know any Thais who are employed?

 

[Lorry]

12 hours ago, samtam said:

No one in their right mind is going to buy financial products when goalposts are moved, rules and laws are "flexible", and the system is corrupt.

But Wall Street IS a financial hub.

[NoDisplayName]

On 7/21/2024 at 12:22 PM, samtam said:

 

Thanks for the links. The TRD Hua Hin seminar mention in a video seems the least supported evidence or argument, (although I appreciate you don't have the time or interest to find the video), so it would be nice to have that from the "horse's mouth", if the TRD horse ever gets around to it.

 

Anticipating that being definitive, I also asked:

 

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask these questions, as I can't remember, having waded through a large portion of the thousands of comments, whether anyone in Bangkok has actually gone to RD Bangkok, and what the process is, as its processes are doubtless different to other offices. Perhaps they've used a tax accountant; MPG are apparently charging THB85,000 for that exercise.

 

Also, if I am liable for paying tax after TEDA, I will start claiming refund of withholding tax, (paid on my THB800K deposit in a Thai Savings account for the last 17 years), but presumably I would only be able to claim for the YE 2024 to avoid a tax audit over those 17 years, so it is probably not worth getting excited about it.

 

Your pink ID is your tax filing number.  Visit your local tax office to have your ID number set up in the e-filing system.  Help line 1161 may be able to assist with that.

 

Set up your account   https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

File returns   https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-efiling-web/login

You can file online 2023, 2022, 2021.

 

Simple returns are, well, simple.  You self-assess your remittances.  If not assessable, then not entered.   No document upload required.  You enter your Thai income and tax withheld.  You enter the payer tax ID (bank or broker) you received income from.  You can request a refund, but only 2023 will be paid (afaik) by check mailed to your home address.

 

If no tax due, then no late filing fee for 2021 and 2022.

A 2023 return receiving a refund is charged a 200 baht late filing fee, paid by bank transfer within the system when you file.  When accepted and approved (immediate for 2021 and 2022, next day for 2023) you can download final version of PD90 and tax receipt.

 

YKMV

[Bday Prang]

15 hours ago, smedly said:

are you people really exposing yourselves on a voluntary basis ?

 

every thai I know should be paying tax and don't, they don't go after their own so why should you be a volunteer - crazy

Some people just seem to have a built in need to obey authority, even when they are not certain what it is the authorities actually want. If everybody had  just kept quiet this might have  just all blown over.    As,by all accounts, expat pensioners were never in the firing line.  But it might be  too late for that now.  The panic about this has reached covid proportions   worried people asking questions to accountants, and then those  accountants passing on those questions to people they know in the revenue department,  can only have  made them more aware of a source of revenue they had never realised existed or how much money might be there for the taking ,  but now that they do ,  they might not be inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth.    The old yorkshire saying   "see all , hear all, and say nowt"  is good advice

[Bday Prang]

On 7/20/2024 at 2:08 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

This post is another example of what is wrong with all the tax discussions on these forums.  "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" comes to mind. 

 

There is currently no conclusive advice on this ( foreign credit cards or ATM withdrawals) . Opinions of experts differ.

 

There is no way to show this ( what you call "income")  on current Thailand tax forms. 

 

If you tried, you would likely have the dubious honor of being the first foreigner in Thailand to ever attempt to pay taxes on "income" by using your foreign credit card or ATM withdrawals from foreign accounts. 

Wouldn't apply if one was to use another person's foreign ATM card (with their permission of course) to draw money from that persons foreign account which one had funded 

[MangoKorat]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:32 AM, Mike Lister said:

Since nobody knows the reason why you were told not to file, I think we all need to move on from trying to use your case an example because it doesn't tell us anything useful or helpful. If we're ever going to make progress on this, we need to find an example where somebody actually interreacted with RD staff and asked questions and clearly that's not you.

Quite, and may I add - the poster is accepting a verbal notification that he doesn't need to file a return.  How would he prove that later if he is ever investigated? I very much doubt any tax officer is going to admit giving such advice.  I would only rely of such a suggestion if it was in writing.

[steve187]

On 7/20/2024 at 6:18 PM, Digitalbanana said:

In what way would your points 1 or 2 be classed as income? You are simply drawing on your own funds not earning income.

why would they not be classed as assessable income

[samtam]

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Your pink ID is your tax filing number.  Visit your local tax office to have your ID number set up in the e-filing system.  Help line 1161 may be able to assist with that.

 

Set up your account   https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

File returns   https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-efiling-web/login

You can file online 2023, 2022, 2021.

 

Simple returns are, well, simple.  You self-assess your remittances.  If not assessable, then not entered.   No document upload required.  You enter your Thai income and tax withheld.  You enter the payer tax ID (bank or broker) you received income from.  You can request a refund, but only 2023 will be paid (afaik) by check mailed to your home address.

 

If no tax due, then no late filing fee for 2021 and 2022.

A 2023 return receiving a refund is charged a 200 baht late filing fee, paid by bank transfer within the system when you file.  When accepted and approved (immediate for 2021 and 2022, next day for 2023) you can download final version of PD90 and tax receipt.

 

YKMV

 

Thank you. Very helpful, and much appreciated.

[NoDisplayName]

8 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Quite, and may I add - the poster is accepting a verbal notification that he doesn't need to file a return.  How would he prove that later if he is ever investigated? I very much doubt any tax officer is going to admit giving such advice.  I would only rely of such a suggestion if it was in writing.

 

You are referencing posts nearly half a year old.  I did attend my district tax office a couple weeks ago to update my TIN card with a new address, but was informed that I now have a pink ID and use that number when filing tax.

 

Wife and I asked about filing tax for 2023.  Thai income about 6K baht (interest & dividends), remittances 310K baht.  Tax office lady asked if remittances were salary or pension.  When told funds were all prior savings, she responded that we do not need to file, that it was optional if we wanted to apply for refund of tax withheld.  We did not demand a written statement signed and stamped by the tax official on department letterhead.

 

No supporting documentation was asked for, but this amount was close to our exemption threshold.  No opinion on whether a different officer in a different office with million-baht remittances would result in same outcome.

 

This all relied on self-assessment of remitted funds.  The term "savings" in this case refers to funds held outside Thailand (in whatever form) prior to January, 2024.  Definition of "savings" has been covered in sensei Mike's other threads.

[MangoKorat]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

You are referencing posts nearly half a year old. 

Does that make my point less pertinent?

[bkk6060]

15 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Some people just seem to have a built in need to obey authority, even when they are not certain what it is the authorities actually want. If everybody had  just kept quiet this might have  just all blown over.    As,by all accounts, expat pensioners were never in the firing line.  But it might be  too late for that now.  The panic about this has reached covid proportions   worried people asking questions to accountants, and then those  accountants passing on those questions to people they know in the revenue department,  can only have  made them more aware of a source of revenue they had never realised existed or how much money might be there for the taking ,  but now that they do ,  they might not be inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth.    The old yorkshire saying   "see all , hear all, and say nowt"  is good advice

I totally agree with this.  I believe it was originally meant for Thais who have businesses or investments overseas.  But, when people starting asking questions the flood gates opened.  Now, you have lawyers, accountants, advisers, You Tubers, and tax authorities rubbing their hands together. I actually think it may be too late now though.

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Does that make my point less pertinent?

 

Yes.  Yes, it does.  Back in January, this issue was still fresh with little real-world experience.  Now we have multiple instances of expats visiting their tax office and being told that filing is NOT required given their unique circumstances.

[lungbing]

15 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Some people just seem to have a built in need to obey authority, even when they are not certain what it is the authorities actually want. If everybody had  just kept quiet this might have  just all blown over.    As,by all accounts, expat pensioners were never in the firing line.  But it might be  too late for that now.  The panic about this has reached covid proportions   worried people asking questions to accountants, and then those  accountants passing on those questions to people they know in the revenue department,  can only have  made them more aware of a source of revenue they had never realised existed or how much money might be there for the taking ,  but now that they do ,  they might not be inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth.    The old yorkshire saying   "see all , hear all, and say nowt"  is good advice

To finish the saying :  Eat all, sup all and pay nowt. And if tha wants owt doing, do in fer thissen.

[Lorry]

21 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Wouldn't apply if one was to use another person's foreign ATM card (with their permission of course) to draw money from that persons foreign account which one had funded 

You can do this a couple of times. 

You don't want to live from this,  year after year. Too dangerous. 

[Bday Prang]

18 hours ago, lungbing said:

To finish the saying :  Eat all, sup all and pay nowt. And if tha wants owt doing, do in fer thissen.

I always heard the last line as  " If tha ever does owt for nowt make sure tha does it for thi sen"  but yours is near enough

[Bday Prang]

18 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes.  Yes, it does.  Back in January, this issue was still fresh with little real-world experience.  Now we have multiple instances of expats visiting their tax office and being told that filing is NOT required given their unique circumstances.

And some actually appear disappointed, !

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

And some actually appear disappointed, !

 

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90)

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

 

Quote

 

WHO HAS TO FILE ภ.ง.ด.90?

The following persons/entities are subject to personal income tax in Thailand:

1. An individual

......

1. Residents of Thailand

If you stay in Thailand for the total of at least 180 days in the tax year, you are considered a “resident of Thailand” for tax purposes. You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

1. Your total income exceeded 60,000 baht in the tax year.

2. You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

 

 

I plan to forever remain in the assessable income < 60,000 camp, however I shall continue to spend 20 minutes each year filing online for refund of tax withheld.

 

 

[jwest10]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

This thread is solely for the purpose of recording information from posters who have had contact with the Revenue Department in the different parts of the country, eg, filing of tax returns, questions asked, TIN applications etc. Any information you can supply that will help other readers understand what new rules are being enforced, new measures being taken and the responses to any tax related question you asked, will be invaluable. Please state the location of your visit. Since we are now in the peak time when members will visit RD offices, it's an excellent time to gather first hand information about how the new changes will be handled. Note: if you visited and didn't learn anything new, it's probably not worth reporting that!

 

Any off topic discussions and unnecessary posts will be removed without warning.

 

[jwest10]

1 minute ago, jwest10 said:

 

Hi Mike

Yes, I just saw this newish subject and noticed your post for Jan 24.

I have posted my experiences on the other part of the 11 sites and yes I have indeed gone to my local Revenue office  3 times recently and originally stated to wait until the new forms which are being printed in  NOv/Dec.
As and if they appear but other than that they seemed t not to know very much of at all about this ex-pat issue and suggested I wait an official confirmation.

I have seen out-of-date forms PND 90 and PND 91 as well as the Income Exemption Form for being over 65 years of age.

The first income tax exemption of 150k of course is taken away at the last calculation and if there is any tax then the next level of 5% and so and only if needed.
Mike thanks again for all of your help but it seems we wait and see but prepare our rough estimates in the meantime.
Correct and anyone?