Khmer

[macb]

I appreciate that this Forum is about the Thai language:

A couple of years ago I bought a book and CD's on Cambodian but this is not the language they speak in my village :

I have found a couple of web sites that are related to ancient Khmer: But does any one have any knowledge or may have have prepared a list of words and phrases, I know some Khmer but its not enough I want to know what there talking about :

My Thai is coming on slowly but Khmer I need to learn more about

Ta

[meadish_sweetball]

Perhaps the below link can take you further.

Looks like you are in Buriram, and if so you are stuck with a dialect very different from standard Khmer just as you have noticed, and your best bet in this situation might be to try to find a local teacher. It is not likely that you will be able to find learning material on this dialect in English, although there may be linguistic essays and papers on it.

http://www.studykhmer.com/podcast/episode_one_extras.html

[DurianChips]

My wife is from Surin, so she grew up speaking the Northern Khmer dialect. Although it has a lot in common with standard Khmer, there are many differences too. Many of the words and phrases seem archaic to standard Khmer speakers, and many Thai words have usurped their Khmer counterparts. Also, there are a few words ('Neang', เนียง, for instance) that I believe are unique to N Khmer, and nobody really knows where they came from. My wife can communicate with near 100 % understanding with Cambodians from the Siem Rep area, but she estimates she only understands about 80 % when Pnomh Penh people speak. I believe, however, that they can understand 100 % of what my wife says. Someone who learned standard Khmer as a second language would probably not be able to achieve such comprehension without specialized study in N Khmer.

Unfortunately, my wife and inlaws have told me that N Khmer is almost entirely a spoken language in Thailand. Most people living in the Buriram, Surin, or Si Saket areas can speak N Khmer, but they cannot read Khmer. My father-in-law is literate in Khmer, as is the most senior monk at the local wat, but they seem to be exceptions; they studied it for religious reasons only. Even so, they write standard Khmer, not N Khmer. If you really want to learn N Khmer from the locals then, unfortunately you may have to do it by ear, or by transliteration into Thai, and I can warn you that many Khmer words will not transliterate easily into Thai (I only know a few, but, aside from เนียง, I'm not sure how I would write them with Thai characters). In fact, I really think that some Khmer words transliterate more easily into English than into Thai. The word for dog, for instance, is ch-kay. I'm not sure how one would write this in Thai, since the first sound doesn't really have a vowel associated with it.

We do know a missionary couple (Americans) at the Seventh Day Adventist church in Surin, and the husband has learned to speak N Khmer quite well. Of course, he lived in Cambodia previously, so he already spoke standard Khmer. He told us once that he found a book about the N Khmer language (written in Thai) in the archives at Chula U, so one may exist somewhere.

On the bright side, except for the very old, most people in N Khmer speaking areas in Thailand can also speak Thai, although perhaps not with the perfect grammar of a Thai language textbook. If you can speak reasonably good Thai, then you will be able to converse with most people, although you may not understand them when they talk amongst themselves.

I'd love to hear if you do find language resources on N Khmer.

[Khutan]

DurianChips;

Same with me, in my wife's village, they speak that version of Khmer. There is also another language floating around but certainly in less use calles Suway.

You seem correct that no one in Thailand reads Khmer script, and from that I would expect it to go from regular usage in a generation or so. You are also correct saying the phrases are different, and if you put on TV from Phnom Penh, they really only understand about 50% of what is spoken.

[Rikker]

I've seen titles of some dissertations on different aspects of Northern Khmer in library catalogues in Thailand, but I haven't seen a book designed for learning the language.

Here are a few links to academic articles from the journal Mon-Khmer Studies:

http://www.sealang.net/archives/mks/NorthernKhmer.htm

[DurianChips]

DurianChips;

Same with me, in my wife's village, they speak that version of Khmer. There is also another language floating around but certainly in less use calles Suway.

You seem correct that no one in Thailand reads Khmer script, and from that I would expect it to go from regular usage in a generation or so. You are also correct saying the phrases are different, and if you put on TV from Phnom Penh, they really only understand about 50% of what is spoken.

Suway had been described to me as a local aboriginal language. Other than that, I don't know much about it.

It's interesting to me that you think Northern Khmer might disappear from common usage, because my wife and in-laws have talked about that very subject before, and they agree entirely that it is inevitable. Most people around her village expect N Khmer usage to recede over time. There is some debate, however, about whether this is a good thing or not. Some families have made a conscious choice to speak only Thai with their children. Others would rather preserve some of the Khmer traditions. Observing Surin crafts, music, and rituals, all of these things are very distinct from central Thai, from the Lao styles found further north, or from Cambodia proper. The Khmer Surin style of music, in particular, sounds like no other, and while it may not be known so well inside of Thailand, the locals are very proud of it. Additionally, Cambodians love it; they see it as a more authentic Khmer music than much of the pop produced today in Cambodia proper. All the Cambodians we've encountered here in the States love Khmer Surin music. If you go to youtube or google and type in Khmer Surin, lots of media will appear, almost all of it posted by Cambodians.

So while I agree that common usage of N Khmer will probably decline, I think that we can count on Khmer Surin music for at least another couple of generations. I hope so, anyway.

[Tilokarat]

George Coedes, a French scholar, translated a lot of old Khmer inscriptions. Michael Vickery has done the same for inscriptions in Cambodia, Sukhothai and Ayutthaya. M.O. Wolters might have some stuff out there too. To get further information, try to contact David Chandler at either Monash University in Australia or A.N.U. He will know the answer to your question. He is retired now but is very interested in all things Cambodian.

[macb]

I am impressed at the quick input by you folks................ I have taken the links thanks very much and added them the ones I already have and will take it from there :

I can list some of the words I have learnt if it should be of any help to others in this situation : I will spell them as I here the sound

1 Dona: Meaning -Where you go

2. Khop Chai: Meaning- Thank you

3 Phut: Meaning- drink

4 Lhun lhun: Meaning -Hurry Hurry

5 Chob: Meaning-Stop

6 Manee: Meaning- Come here

7 Gadow: Meaning-Hot

8 Sadoiy: Meaning-Say again

Well when I remember the rest or learn more I will add them here. The difference between This Khmer and Thai is There are no rising and falling downs it appears to be guttural language

[Rikker]

The Wikipedia page on Khmer language is a decent primer on the language (but it doesn't really give you vocabulary), as is this page from ANU.

(As for academic writing, the complete archives of Mon-Khmer Studies journal are online here.)

[DurianChips]

I am impressed at the quick input by you folks................ I have taken the links thanks very much and added them the ones I already have and will take it from there :

I can list some of the words I have learnt if it should be of any help to others in this situation : I will spell them as I here the sound

1 Dona: Meaning -Where you go

2. Khop Chai: Meaning- Thank you

3 Phut: Meaning- drink

4 Lhun lhun: Meaning -Hurry Hurry

5 Chob: Meaning-Stop

6 Manee: Meaning- Come here

7 Gadow: Meaning-Hot

8 Sadoiy: Meaning-Say again

Well when I remember the rest or learn more I will add them here. The difference between This Khmer and Thai is There are no rising and falling downs it appears to be guttural language

A couple of these phrases are Thai, not Khmer.

#2: kob jai = ขอบใจ

This is a more literary version of the Thai thank you than kob koon, but definitely still Thai. After I first encountered this phrase in a children's novel, I wanted to use it, but my wife told me not to; she said it would be too informal for conversing with most people, and assuming such informality could be interpreted as presumptuous.

#6: Ma nee = มานี่, or in longer version Ma tee nee, มาที่นี่ . Ma means come, and tee nee is here. Also definitely Thai

I'm glad to see you're having such a great time living there and learning the language. A word of caution though, if I may. Be a little careful about parroting words you hear around the village. Some of them may not be polite. And sometimes, a word may be perfectly acceptable for them to use, but not for you. The tricky thing here is that they won't always come right out and tell you that you've used an inappropriate word (has to do with face). You just won't get invited back in the future. I knew a college professor who spent some time in a village near Khon Kaen, and apparently decided to ditch the more formal words sami and panyya (husband and wife) for the less formal mia and pooa he heard around the village. It didn't go over well, and he didn't even realize it. I know because they talked about it after he left, and they all felt it was quite rude. So you just need to be a little careful. The best thing to do is to find a person you can trust, conversant in the language, and preferably with a little education (even if its just at the local wat). Then, when you hear new words, you can run them by this person.

The formal / informal vocabulary issue in Thai has often been very frustrating for me, and I suspect I'm not alone. As educated speakers (even if not native speakers), we are expected to avoid informal language, unless we've been spefically invited to speak informally, and even then one should be careful.

Well, I hope these thoughts are somewhat useful, and I'm happy once again to hear that you're having such a great time living there. My wife and I are living in the States, and with our obligations here only get to go to Surin for a few weeks now and then, so I'm jealous that you're getting to spend so much time there. Have fun!

[Goinghomesoon]

As a former Cambodia resident and wannabe Khmer speaker I'd say four or five of the words on that list are part of standard Khmer language, although the transliteration of a couple threw me. As well as the actual difference in vocabulary Siem Reap and northern Cambodians have quite a pronounced lyrical rhythm to the way they speak that generally isn't present in the South and SE of the country.

[grtaylor]

Looks like some interesting stuff about it here:

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kxm

Cheers,

G

[tijnebijn]

My wife also originally comes from the Buriram area , although she moved at a young age to Chiang mai.

Very differently indeed , now she does still speak Khmer Thai with her mother and family .

I have found it an intriguing language , much easier to pronounce and remember then Thai .

For me being a Dutchman especially more easy , because they use the rolling rrrrrrrr , like we speak in Dutch .

It is a lovely spoken language to listen at already , almost singing a sweet song .

[aitch]

Hello,

I have been learning the Thai alphabet via Mary Haas' 'the thai system of writing'. Is there a comparable book for Khmer (thai khmer would be even better) ?

[Rikker]

There's Franklin Huffman's Cambodian System of Writing and Beginning Reader. And while it doesn't specifically focus on the written language, there's also Cambodian for Beginners.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Rikker

[DurianChips]

Keep in mind though that most of the Thai Khmer speakers are not literate in Khmer; it's a spoken language for them.

[aitch]

Thank you all for the information on this topic. It is very interesting and helpful

[mangkorn]

DurianChips: /kob jai/ is very informal in Thai, but is the common way to say thanks in Lao. Also, I understand that it is a good way to say it in Thai - to a child - because it sounds a bit strange to say /kob khun/ in most instances to the wee ones (unless you are trying to teach them proper manners).

Edited August 11, 2007 by mangkorn

[NickP]

Unfortunely, you have it wrong in many instances.

One, if you are refering to the same "neang' I am thinking (meaning young lady or in some case young man), then it is not specifically a N khmer word. The word neang is a very common and polite way to refer to someone younger than yourselk without referencing to a gender or calling that person a nephew. In most case it refers to a younger female, but a very old lady can also call a boy, "neang". This is common practice in Khmer culture in general, from Samrong to Phnom Penh to Bavet.

Two, all fluent native Khmer speakers will understand each other regardless of their colloquial dialect. The difference is in the bordering countries. Cambodia's northernwest provinces resembles their cousins in neighboring Thailand and Laos. Her southeastern provinces will be closer to Vietnam. Phnom Penh has a Chinese and French spin to their speech because of the historical past.

Three, the khmer word for dog can easily be written in thai. ch + k + ai, thai have equivalent for both consonants and vowel. It is very easy for Khmer speech to translate thai script. I disagree that it is easier to translate from Khmer to English than from Khmer to Thai. English simple does not offer the variety of vowels that Khmer and Thai have in common. The aspirate and nasal sounds are also difficult to transliterate in English.

One other approach to understanding "N Khmer" is to be fluent in Khmer like a native. After all it is the same language. Remember N Khmer is a dialect of Khmer and not a seperate language. It is not like modern english and Beowulf English or Mandarin and Cantonese. It is more like Texas accent versus Minnesota accent or Singapore English and American English. Imagine learning english from Singapore and going to Louisana's creole country to speak with the local's. You will understand some but not all and if you are not quite fluent at english you will understand even less.

If you read Khmer, then I highly recommend a book by Lok (MR.) Iev Koeus called "Pearsa Khmer". He details the history and colloquial varieties of Khmer language.

Koan Khmer.

My wife is from Surin, so she grew up speaking the Northern Khmer dialect. Although it has a lot in common with standard Khmer, there are many differences too. Many of the words and phrases seem archaic to standard Khmer speakers, and many Thai words have usurped their Khmer counterparts. Also, there are a few words ('Neang', เนียง, for instance) that I believe are unique to N Khmer, and nobody really knows where they came from. My wife can communicate with near 100 % understanding with Cambodians from the Siem Rep area, but she estimates she only understands about 80 % when Pnomh Penh people speak. I believe, however, that they can understand 100 % of what my wife says. Someone who learned standard Khmer as a second language would probably not be able to achieve such comprehension without specialized study in N Khmer.

Unfortunately, my wife and inlaws have told me that N Khmer is almost entirely a spoken language in Thailand. Most people living in the Buriram, Surin, or Si Saket areas can speak N Khmer, but they cannot read Khmer. My father-in-law is literate in Khmer, as is the most senior monk at the local wat, but they seem to be exceptions; they studied it for religious reasons only. Even so, they write standard Khmer, not N Khmer. If you really want to learn N Khmer from the locals then, unfortunately you may have to do it by ear, or by transliteration into Thai, and I can warn you that many Khmer words will not transliterate easily into Thai (I only know a few, but, aside from เนียง, I'm not sure how I would write them with Thai characters). In fact, I really think that some Khmer words transliterate more easily into English than into Thai. The word for dog, for instance, is ch-kay. I'm not sure how one would write this in Thai, since the first sound doesn't really have a vowel associated with it.

We do know a missionary couple (Americans) at the Seventh Day Adventist church in Surin, and the husband has learned to speak N Khmer quite well. Of course, he lived in Cambodia previously, so he already spoke standard Khmer. He told us once that he found a book about the N Khmer language (written in Thai) in the archives at Chula U, so one may exist somewhere.

On the bright side, except for the very old, most people in N Khmer speaking areas in Thailand can also speak Thai, although perhaps not with the perfect grammar of a Thai language textbook. If you can speak reasonably good Thai, then you will be able to converse with most people, although you may not understand them when they talk amongst themselves.

I'd love to hear if you do find language resources on N Khmer.

[NickP]

Macb, I see your list. And I really think the fact that you are not beginning khmer speaker makes it difficult for you. If you want to learn N Khmer continue to learn Std Khmer. Trying to find a book on N Khmer speaker is like trying to find a book on Ebonics or American East Coast English.

All 6 of 8 words are same as Std Khmer but with colloquial accent. I recognize them even with you english transliteration. Below are the words and how it would be spoken in Std Khmer, so you can see what you are dealing with:

1. Dona = Tohna

3.Phut = puk (not polite)

4.Lhun Lhun = Lern Lern

5.Chop = chup

6.Manee = mow neh

7.Gadow = kadow

#2 and #3, I suspect are loan words from Thai or Lao.

Also, Khmer is not a guttural language.

Good Luck.

I am impressed at the quick input by you folks................ I have taken the links thanks very much and added them the ones I already have and will take it from there :

I can list some of the words I have learnt if it should be of any help to others in this situation : I will spell them as I here the sound

1 Dona: Meaning -Where you go

2. Khop Chai: Meaning- Thank you

3 Phut: Meaning- drink

4 Lhun lhun: Meaning -Hurry Hurry

5 Chob: Meaning-Stop

6 Manee: Meaning- Come here

7 Gadow: Meaning-Hot

8 Sadoiy: Meaning-Say again

Well when I remember the rest or learn more I will add them here. The difference between This Khmer and Thai is There are no rising and falling downs it appears to be guttural language

[NickP]

Call me an optimist, but as long as there is Cambodia, there will be N Khmer speakers. Because there is a border region, trade and relationships will flourish as they have been for the last two millenium. Cambodia will never be Thai and Thai will never be Cambodia, but there with be the "in betweens" and this is what that region is all about.

They will coexist in love and hate. There is no choice, unless one of nations disappears and I do not see that happening at all. For a time there, the question of the survival of the Khmer written language was of concern. Look at it now; still alive and going after over 1,600 years. That's a fact carved in stone.

Also, one reason why the N Khmer have trouble understanding Khmer TV is because what is on TV is a more literal form of Khmer. Especially the News. There are usually more pali and sanskrit loan word used.

DurianChips;

Same with me, in my wife's village, they speak that version of Khmer. There is also another language floating around but certainly in less use calles Suway.

You seem correct that no one in Thailand reads Khmer script, and from that I would expect it to go from regular usage in a generation or so. You are also correct saying the phrases are different, and if you put on TV from Phnom Penh, they really only understand about 50% of what is spoken.

[Richard W]

There's Franklin Huffman's Cambodian System of Writing and Beginning Reader.

Available as a totally legal 34M download via http://www.pratyeka.org/csw/ - a set of page scans incorporated as PDF with a good set of bookmarks. Transcribing it into HTML is on my to-do list - I haven't progressed very far yet.

[aitch]

There's Franklin Huffman's Cambodian System of Writing and Beginning Reader. And while it doesn't specifically focus on the written language, there's also Cambodian for Beginners.

Rikker,

I bought both books on Amazon. thanks for the tip.

Aitch

[mangkorn]

Call me an optimist, but as long as there is Cambodia, there will be N Khmer speakers. Because there is a border region, trade and relationships will flourish as they have been for the last two millenium. Cambodia will never be Thai and Thai will never be Cambodia, but there with be the "in betweens" and this is what that region is all about.

They will coexist in love and hate. There is no choice, unless one of nations disappears and I do not see that happening at all. For a time there, the question of the survival of the Khmer written language was of concern. Look at it now; still alive and going after over 1,600 years. That's a fact carved in stone.

Was in Phnom Penh recently, and had some Khmer lessons with a young woman to whom I taught some Thai in return. She spoke Thai fairly well, but she wanted to be able to speak better in order to deal with Thai tourists, and away we went.

At one point, I mentioned that written Thai was modelled after the Khmer alphabet, and she was both shocked and outwardly pleased to hear it.

"How do you know that?" she asked in Thai.

"I've read up on the subject," I replied.

"I'm very happy, because you must know that Thai people look down on us all the time, and many even convinced themselves that we stole their alphabet, when the opposite it true: the Thai king sent monks here to study our scripts when he wanted to make an alphabet!"

And then she looked off into the distance with that rueful gaze that modern-day Khmers often have, wondering what happened to their country, and its illustrious history...

[stateman]

DurianChips;

Same with me, in my wife's village, they speak that version of Khmer. There is also another language floating around but certainly in less use calles Suway.

You seem correct that no one in Thailand reads Khmer script, and from that I would expect it to go from regular usage in a generation or so.

Most Thais really don't care to learn khmer.

So for Macb to learn a language which is very localized, Macb may find that later on he can't leverage what is learned to communicate with an average Thai. This may not matter if Macb will settle down longterm with someone in the village where this Khmer is used.

But if Macb should move on to live elsewhere in Thailand, he may wish he had settled somewhere that he can pick up regular Thai, especially central Thai language. Then as time progresses, his Thai keep improves.

[PETER306]

On 7/24/2007 at 9:30 AM, macb said:

I am impressed at the quick input by you folks................ I have taken the links thanks very much and added them the ones I already have and will take it from there :

I can list some of the words I have learnt if it should be of any help to others in this situation : I will spell them as I here the sound

1 Dona: Meaning -Where you go

2. Khop Chai: Meaning- Thank you

3 Phut: Meaning- drink

4 Lhun lhun: Meaning -Hurry Hurry

5 Chob: Meaning-Stop

6 Manee: Meaning- Come here

7 Gadow: Meaning-Hot

8 Sadoiy: Meaning-Say again

Well when I remember the rest or learn more I will add them here. The difference between This Khmer and Thai is There are no rising and falling downs it appears to be guttural language

Having friends who speak the language is the best way to learn as it's considered by locals as unwritten excuse my spelling but here goes

Jaagay dog

Jaroo plg

Swaa monkey

Miell cat

Toe naa where you going

Mobee naa where have you been

Toe pong we go together

Srrott naa where are you from

Klien hungry

Hop Bai go eat

Hop Bai hoy eat already

Ruttnea cold

Kadow hot

Gaaop smell good

Saa Oy smell bad

Kamow black

Saaboom smart looking male

Laa o beautiful 

Jannup very much 

Bong male 

Neang female

Jaa hoy old already

Juttea good heart

Kineea friend

Loads more however, I'm spelling it as it sounds hope it's of interest to you