Has A Prenutial/pre-marital Agreement Ruined My Future Relationship?

[thaitang]

hi,

i just wanted to warn that this will be a long long post, but i am looking forward to reading responses from the local thai's that might frequent this forum.

as my topic asks, i need to know if i have ruined my relationship with my long-time thai GF with a prenutial/pre-marital agreement.

me - 37 year old canadian that met my thai GF in bangkok 2 years ago & lived with for 18 months. i have enuff money that i am comfortable & can afford to take life ez & want to find someone to share life with.

thai GF - 29 year old ex-bar girl that i clicked with when we, well clicked. after living with this girl i know she is honest, generous, a great cook, same sense of whacky humour as myself, & we seem to enjoy each other's company. i think we are basically best friends. she has an 11 year old daughter (with local hometown thai guy) but has never previously been married. her daughter has always lived in the GF's home town with her mother (GF's, daughter's, grandmother that is) while the GF worked in bangkok to support her family in the home town.

we - we lived together in thailand for 18 months & we just seemed to mesh. things couldn't have been better from where i stood. we were a perfect fit the entire time.

so after the new thai visa law changes in the fall of 2006 i decided i had to return home to canada. i wanted my GF to come back with me but her tourist visa was refused. i thought at that time no problem because i took the whole tourist visa process very lightly & she was refused as a result.

so i returned home in december 2006 & we kept in touch almost daily. missing my GF beyond belief i asked my GF marry me. she said YES... woohoo ME! she told me how excited her entire family was that she was getting married to me (i have met her mother two times & daughter several times while we were living together in bangkok). i was going to be the first honky to marry a thai in her hometown... it seemed like some kind of an event to be!

we re-applied for a tourist visa for her in april, while i am here in canada & she in bangkok. again i was mistakenly sure it would be no-brainer as i provided so much extra info this time about us. it seems that might have actually been a problem, but that is a whole other discussion in itself. the result was that my GF was again refused a tourist visa to visit me in canada.

so no big problem as we were preparing to marry when i quit my job here in canada to return to thailand in september. we were first planning to do the lawful marriage in bangkok that canada would recognize so we could start her permanent residence application ASAP. we were then going to do the marriage ceremony in her home town as per thai buddist marriage ceremony tradition. i was actually so looking forward to this ceremony as i thought i would quite a great experience!

so we have been planning to marry for 6 months now. we talked about everything including dowry to her mother, my GF's (would then be wife) permanent residence to canada after the marriage, sponsoring her daughter to come to canada after my GF was settled in canada & living together while i worked & socked away some cash so we could eventually retire back in thailand... where i really wanted to get back to!

ever being the stickler for detail, i presented my GF with a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement two weeks ago that would protect everything i have been working for in the past 12 years before we marry. i already was aware that a prenup was not really required for us while we resided in thailand as the thai law already protects a person's pocessions/belongings before a marriage. the prenup i was presenting was in the (hopefully) very unlikely event things between me & the GF went sour & we decided to divorce. i just wanted to protect what i had going into the marriage.

she has alot of land in thailand that is already protected by thai law. i wouldn't want any of that land, even if it was possible in the course of a divorce. i just wanted the same for my pocessions going in.

i think i have made the HUGE mistake of thinking that a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement wouldn't be a problem. it has turned our relationship upside down! i tried to explain that the agreement is in the UNLIKELY event things don't work out! i expect them to work out so hopefully this agreement means nothing in the end. what i currently have will be used to keep us going & happy for a long-hopeful future!

my GF says she doesn't want anything from me in the event we ever decide to divorce. my response being, well put in ink what you say because i know divorce is nasty business & things change at that point. well she just thinks now that i don't trust her.

i have held my ground & i will NOT marry without an agreement, whether it be with her or any female. i have worked too long & hard for what i have now to hand over half in the event things don't work out down the road. i have asked the GF how she would feel if thai family law was different & she had to give me 50% of her land in her homeown if we had to divorce.

unfortunatley she couldn't seem to relate with me. since then everything seems to be on-hold or even pretty much cancelled. my first thoughts are to conclude that if she has such a problem with a prenutial/pre-marital agreement than money has had ALOT more to do with our relationship than what i have believed it has!

or perhaps i really have offended my GF! although i have lived in thailand for 18+ months, there IS alot i need to learn about thai custom. did i offend in such a manner my GF is willing to write off the past two years we spent together because of a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement? i honestly can't believe she could be that offended or upset from this.

i am wondering if the 8 months apart might be a factor in us actually drifting apart & this preuptial/pre-marital agreement is an ez way out of the relationship is that is what she really wants. i know the GF has a friend at work that wants her to move in with her to help share the rent. perhaps this friend is convincing my GF that i am not what she wnats/needs & that the GF should forget me so she can move in with this firend & help share the cost of rent. i am sure this is a LONG shot, but i am thinking of all possible reasons why my GF is so pissed off or upset about a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement i wanted to discuss! we have always been able to talk about everything, but since this we haven't been able to talk about much.

i am beyond gravelling, but i really don't want to give up on my baby! i love her damit! if i have offended her & not even relaized it i would like to know!

is this something that could totally offend a thai? something that might de-mean a thai?

i am not sure what to do next. i know i love her! i hope she still loves me!

any suggestions or input is appreciated!!!

Edited July 28, 2007 by thaitang

[LostInBKK]

At least you held your ground... stupid me, I didn't even think about that until after the marriage papers were signed.

Now I keep everything in overseas accounts and only transfer in what I need for any given period of time. I love my wife and all, but from the stories I've read here and on tons of other thai related websites, I'm going to cover my ass as I've worked too hard and risked my life for what I have now.

[skippybangkok]

Seems a bit deep an meaningful for first post. Troll ?

[teacup]

If you can't trust her then don't get married. Nothing wrong with that decision…if you think you will have a lot to lose, sure I can understand why you want to protect your assets. It’s your hard earned money and this may be the last batch of your life saving then you should do what logically is right for you since you will be bringing the most dough to this marriage.

You can love someone SO much and trust them, that doesn't mean that they can't change in the future, screw you over and then run off with 50% of what you've got!

Of course people share - but that’s when they are still happy together. But when they get divorced the daggers often come out and they are not so compromising. No matter how much you love someone, you should also love yourself.

I would definitely sign the prenup if I were her. Just to prove that love “for me” is priceless. I would never marry for money, so if he wants a pre-nup. As long as it's reasonable and if it would help re-assure him that I'm not after his money, but I would make sure that any kids of mine would be well provided for.

Just my opinion

[mark henry]

I think your right to hold your ground, if she loves you and wants to be with you she should'nt mind you protecting whats yours. I would be asking myself why is she so angry/hurt about this? I know you love her and all but remember she does come from the more seedier side of life where, lets be honest your average bar girl wants a well to do farang to marry and later take to the cleaners for everything he's got! Of course i'm generalizing but it does happen..a lot!

When i married my Thai wife and things got a little rocky (as i'm sure they do for most cross cultural marriages) i wanted my wife to sign a legally drawn-up agreement ensuring what i'd worked for would remain mine in the event of a future divorce. It caused so much trouble for me i backed down. Now we are mostly ok but i always have this fear hanging over me that in the event it all goes wrong i'd likely loose everything, particularly as we have a kid.

So my advice for what its worth is stick to your guns if she loves you and wants a better life for herself (as she surley would be getting) then she'll sign.

Good Luck

[LaReina]

If I was loaded, I would have had my husband sign a pre-nup. If my husband were loaded and he asked me to sign one, I would not have bat an eye. I would have signed it because!!!!!!!! I love him, and want to be with him, and if that is what it takes to make him happy, then so be it.

Would I be offended? Not one bit.

Why? Because I know what happens when people stop loving each other, and because I would understand that he has worked hard to get to where he is.. (and I know that not all pre-nups stand up in court, and all I need to do is have a couple of young ones anyway), and it would mean that I would have to work extra hard to keep the relationship going..

A Farang guy I know.. was having a rough time in his marriage and he brought in a lawyer one day and asked his wife to sign over (a LOT of) her rights to make him feel secure. Guess what.. she didn't even bat an eye. She looked at him, tilted her head to the side as if in disbelief that he did not trust her, and then signed the papers..

But then again, she is educated.

[twix38]

what's the problem?

Have a Thai wedding ceromony ONLY. Not legal and important to Thaia's and dowry payment due. No pre-nup needed

NEVER marry legally without pre-nup as her refusal says a lot about her character and possibly sincerity and not yours.I think you may well regret a legal marriage without one down the road and feel absolutely gutted.

It's a thai ceromony or tell her to go and find another partner. The future grief and this episode of refusal to haunt your future together, if you don't do a pre-nup, is your warning

Edited July 29, 2007 by twix38

[sierra01]

Its too late for me now, 52 and not a lot to show for it due to 2 ex (English) wives. Given my time again, and knowing what I know now I would insist on a pre nup or walk away. At the time it's all roses round the door, it'll last forever etc etc but you NEVER know whats round the corner.

Due to my circumstances I KNOW my misses isn't in it just for the money, I made quite sure she knew all the in's and out's of what I had and didn't have right from the start. That means I can get on with loving her without that niggley thought at the back of my mind of what if. We both went into our relationship mostly even, though she has a little condo in BKK and 2 1/2 rai of rice in Issan (for her parents use). Here in the UK we're slowly getting the material things, and we both know that it's 50/50 in law if the worst happens, and we're both happy with that.

[sbk]

My husband and I are quite similar to Sierra, in a way. Although we were both quite young when married and built our assets up together. Neither walked into the marriage with anything more than the other had to offer. We started a partnership of equals, we remain so.

However, if it had been unequal and he had more than I, I would have hoped that my husband would have been generous enough to make allowances for my having given up my wage earning life in the US in order to live with him here.

[jayhech]

I'm a Thai woman and I have a Western boyfriend. From what you said it seemed she loved you a lot and it didn't appear to me it's one of those classic Farang-Thai bar woman relationship that the woman dreamt for a better life from your wealth or belongings. Both of you got along really well for the past 18 months and that means something providing all the differences between you and your girlfriend. Now, regarding the prenuptials and all the questions you are posing to yourself and here in this discussion board, I think what she sees from the prenuptial is that the uncertainty in you. If you even think of a prenuptial, that means you even think of a break-up in the end. And, if you even think of a break up now, she thinks what's the point of having a marriage which will end in the end anyway. The other thing she might think is that you don't even have your trust in her and I think she's quite upset about it...she might even be devastated. Because it's very clear that both of you love each other so much that you were best friends, but if a best friend doesn't trust a best friend it's like friendship ends. It's my humble opinion. One might argue she didn't want to sign and that she changed her mind because she thought she wouldn't benefit the marriage in terms of finance but I strongly believe that you should have spotted that in her a long time ago if she's that sort of person. After all, a loving, caring relationship which actually lasted 18 months is actually something. You don't get to see that often when 2 people from totally different countries, cultures, backgrounds, etc. are brought to be together.

[DamianMavis]

Bloody he11, so totally.... freaking......nutso.... foolish......blind..... AHHHHHH. After all this time there are still men that think like this in THIS COUNTRY? Its not like the information is hidden! It's all over the net and papers and social networks. BAR GIRL MAN! Sheet that is the end of the conversation right there, no need to wonder after you mention that. My God, ok, moving along to big obvious sign number TWO: freaks out at a prenup! It's ALL ABOUT MONEY. Wake up my brother, move along and get a real girlfriend, not a woman that has sex for money geeze. I love how men are so arrogant they absolutely refuse to learn from others mistakes. Of course this is the source of the worlds problems right... why do we still have greed and wars? You know why I'm getting so angry? Because you obviously have a good heart and are a good man (although naive and stupid - sorry can't believe you freely admit she's a bargirl but don't see anything dangerous in that) and you don't deserve what is coming to you, but it's definately coming, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. And it makes me so sad.

And Jayhech... couples break up ALL the time, protecting yourself from something bad happening is just COMMON SENSE, it's like using condoms... cripes.

My woman has..... alot more money than I, if and when we get married I am TOTALLY EXPECTING to sign a prenup so that she is protected in the event of some terrible divorce. I love her and want her to feel secure and protected and always never fear that my love is not pure and real and stronger than anything else... including money.

Damian

Edited July 29, 2007 by DamianMavis

[trader1]

Anyone who deosn't have a pre-nup is asking fro trouble.

Yes, of course theywill love you forever.. but, then, why are there so many divorces?

[Achim]

I don't think this is a thai specific reaction. I know western women who don't like the idea of such an agreement much either, and I know a thai lady who accepted such an agreement in the most graceful and understanding way. When talking about these issues with others I never heard anything about this being offensive to thai women in particular.

[LaReina]

Okay I am all up in agreement for the pre-nup, and that is kind that the OP mentioned that she was a bar girl (because he wanted to lay ALL the cards on the table).. BUT.. Damian... sweetie.. Can we not give her the benefit of the doubt?

She WAS a bar girl, and is no more.. besides we have no idea what made her become one in the first place.

If the OP is in love with her and has been dating her, lets assume that her past is her past.. and lets just treat her reaction like a woman who

a. Feels insulted

b. Is in it for the money

Afterall, you don't have to be a bar girl to wipe a man clean in a divorce. hel_l hath no fury like a woman scorned.. is all it takes..

[jumnien]

My wife and I signed a pre-nup and we both found out more about each other negotiating thru the process. All in all a very good experience. I highly recommend going thru it and find out if there is anything you disagree on before hand. As for the validity and enforceability of the agreement in the event of a messy divorce, well that's debatable.

[John_Rambo]

OP, you are doing the right thing and are not being unreasonable, don't back down on this one. If you are trying to explain it to her and she is not interested in understanding where you are coming from then maybe it's not meant to be.

[DamianMavis]

Sorry LaReina I've just seen it and heard about it so many times..... to me it's a foregone conclusion, all women aren't the same, but all bar girls are to a certain extent. If there's one sweet one mixed in the bunch it's so extremely rare it's not worth taking into account.

Damian

[ratchabuild]

Sorry LaReina I've just seen it and heard about it so many times..... to me it's a foregone conclusion, all women aren't the same, but all bar girls are to a certain extent. If there's one sweet one mixed in the bunch it's so extremely rare it's not worth taking into account.

Damian

Pre nups are crazy you are planning for divorce before you even marry. If you dont trust her dont marry. Too many people take marriage too lightly. The ones who say "x% of marriages end in a divorce, so I need a prenup" are precisely the ones who shouldn't marry. Make sure when you marry you marry for life and then make it work and you don't have a problem do you? If she is a bar girl she might just want your money and then dump you after the marriage. or she might want her marriage to last forever. Only you know and if you arent sure dont get married. If you are sure you can tear up the prenup. Thai girls want absolute trust. They are smart enough to know trust is earnt. If you dont know her after 18 months you never will. "Darling....I love you more than life itself, I would do anything for you, I trust you absolutely........please sign a pre nup" Doesnt really have that ring of confidence does it? When you let her drive you trust her with your life.............but not with your money. You must really love your money. The one way of getting someone trustworthy is showing trust.

Truth of the matter is when you marry someone you put your life into a frail vessel you sail together. Bound to each other. If you dont trust her absolutely dont marry. Just move back to Thailand and holiday in Canada............and apologise to her.

Edited July 29, 2007 by ratchabuild

[lannarebirth]

I'm not sure I'd choose a prenup for myself, but from what you have described it sounds very appropriate for your relationship/marriage. You don't mention if the agreement offers compensation should the marriage end. Even non bargirl asians see marriage as a financial event to garner a secure future and you should compensate her should you split and her youth and "earning power" have vanished. Maybe barfine x 365 x years of marriage, or whatever is agreeable. I wouldn't be backing down on this one if I were you.

[jumnien]

Do not proceed to a nuptial agreement without a pre-nuptial agreement. First things first. The agreement is for her as much as it is for you. But, I agree with others, no agreement, no marriage. I could see how a woman or a man could disagree with the terms of the agreement, but to refuse to negotiate an agreement under any terms is unreasonable and points to a flimsy basis for marriage.

[kat]

I'm not sure I'd choose a prenup for myself, but from what you have described it sounds very appropriate for your relationship/marriage. You don't mention if the agreement offers compensation should the marriage end. Even non bargirl asians see marriage as a financial event to garner a secure future and you should compensate her should you split and her youth and "earning power" have vanished. Maybe barfine x 365 x years of marriage, or whatever is agreeable. I wouldn't be backing down on this one if I were you.

Yes. I agree with this entirely. You protect your assets, while working out a settlement that protects hers (lost youth/earning power) in the event of a divorce.

quoted from the op:

"unfortunatley she couldn't seem to relate with me. since then everything seems to be on-hold or even pretty much cancelled."

In all honesty, most contracts in Thailand are unenforceable, and from the numerous stories that I've seen and observed, Thais only relate to themselves once it comes to that point, bargirl or not.

*So, of course she's not going to relate to you and your foreign, totally enforceable contract - she has no control! In Thailand, the foreigners are the ones with no control or legal standing. If I were you, I'd also follow previous advice about going back, making amends, but only doing the Thai ceremonial marriage, and that's that. If she wants a formal marriage in your custom, then she do it accordingly, with enforceable contracts that are our custom.

Edited July 29, 2007 by kat

[twix38]

I suspect that in your heart of hearts you clearly have some doubts as to her motivation or just what the future may bring. That's normal for many mixed culture marriages and also same culture.

If you can say hand on heart that you have no doubts, then marry without one. However, I think the chances are about 0.000001% that this would be a good idea, especially as you want a pre-nup and have seen her reaction to your request. Thai's do see marriage in a different light. Less Love and more security, good heart, good Father, good provider. A guy who looks to tie the knot with any girl who has been remotely subjected to the lifestyle of a BG, needs to be given a medal if it lasts more than 3 years, and an electrical brain detection scan to do it at all without a pre-nup.

The warning signs are there and if you're feelings are too strong to walk away, then take whatever financial actions you can to mitigate any future loss. It does not stop you giving 100% to the marriage union, but it simply gives you background peace of mind against all the many horror stories we hear so regularly when foreigners get completely ripped off.

Thai's play the long and short scam games and BG's play a whole list of versions on a theme. Corruption, deceipt behind a smile and not telling you bad news because you will not like it, is a way of daily life. Providing for the Thai extended family and cultural differences mean that at best only 1/2 succeed and I suspect it's more like 1/4 when an ex bar girl's involved. That's 25% chance of being happy for life and without a pre-nup it's probably 75% chance of being as sick as a pig in a few years time (or less).

Would you marry a prostitute from and in your own country (and without a pre-nup)?

Edited July 29, 2007 by twix38

[britmaveric]

Past being a bg has no relevance here and it would be bloody obvious if she was only in it for the dosh. I suspect she doesnt understand. Any rate prenups are not enforceable in thailand, so I doubt it makes much difference.

[LaoPo]

i have held my ground & i will NOT marry without an agreement, whether it be with her or any female. i have worked too long & hard for what i have now to hand over half in the event things don't work out down the road. i have asked the GF how she would feel if thai family law was different & she had to give me 50% of her land in her homeown if we had to divorce.

I hope you're not a TROLL since you would be wasting time for a lot of us.

Prenuptial agreement?

ALWAYS.

I did also but I had a special clause added that my wife would receive an [substantial] amount of money that will leave her comfortable in the unlikely case (but ALWAYS possible) of divorce.

It's a culture thing which is difficult to accept for Eastern people since they're not used to it and it's considered as a kind of mistrust. The same as in the Western countries some 4 or 5 decades ago. Even nowadays [some] couples in the West marry without a prenuptial agreement and 99% of the divorced people are banging their heads, not doing so in the first place; especially the ones with money/assets...

Stick to your decision.

note:

Just read Britmaveric's post.

I agree with him.....BUT...the OP and his (eventual) future wife could, at any given point, make the decision to relocate BACK to the OP's country (Canada?) and the prenuptial agreement would become in force there and the OP would regret (in case of divorce) he didn't stick to his decision.

LaoPo

Edited July 29, 2007 by LaoPo

[britmaveric]

i have held my ground & i will NOT marry without an agreement, whether it be with her or any female. i have worked too long & hard for what i have now to hand over half in the event things don't work out down the road. i have asked the GF how she would feel if thai family law was different & she had to give me 50% of her land in her homeown if we had to divorce.

I hope you're not a TROLL since you would be wasting time for a lot of us.

Prenuptial agreement?

ALWAYS.

I did also but I had a special clause added that my wife would receive an [substantial] amount of money that will leave her comfortable in the unlikely case (but ALWAYS possible) of divorce.

It's a culture thing which is difficult to accept for Eastern people since they're not used to it and it's considered as a kind of mistrust. The same as in the Western countries some 4 or 5 decades ago. Even nowadays [some] couples in the West marry without a prenuptial agreement and 99% of the divorced people are banging their heads, not doing so in the first place; especially the ones with money/assets...

Stick to your decision.

note:

Just read Britmaveric's post.

I agree with him.....BUT...the OP and his (eventual) future wife could, at any given point, make the decision to relocate BACK to the OP's country (Canada?) and the prenuptial agreement would become in force there and the OP would regret (in case of divorce) he didn't stick to his decision.

LaoPo

Better have it translated in Thai and I'm sure a good lawyer could pick it apart even then.

[LaoPo]

i have held my ground & i will NOT marry without an agreement, whether it be with her or any female. i have worked too long & hard for what i have now to hand over half in the event things don't work out down the road. i have asked the GF how she would feel if thai family law was different & she had to give me 50% of her land in her homeown if we had to divorce.

I hope you're not a TROLL since you would be wasting time for a lot of us.

Prenuptial agreement?

ALWAYS.

I did also but I had a special clause added that my wife would receive an [substantial] amount of money that will leave her comfortable in the unlikely case (but ALWAYS possible) of divorce.

It's a culture thing which is difficult to accept for Eastern people since they're not used to it and it's considered as a kind of mistrust. The same as in the Western countries some 4 or 5 decades ago. Even nowadays [some] couples in the West marry without a prenuptial agreement and 99% of the divorced people are banging their heads, not doing so in the first place; especially the ones with money/assets...

Stick to your decision.

note:

Just read Britmaveric's post.

I agree with him.....BUT...the OP and his (eventual) future wife could, at any given point, make the decision to relocate BACK to the OP's country (Canada?) and the prenuptial agreement would become in force there and the OP would regret (in case of divorce) he didn't stick to his decision.

LaoPo

Better have it translated in Thai and I'm sure a good lawyer could pick it apart even then.

Absolutely!

I don't know the laws in OP's country but in my case it is the law that the Prenuptial agreement is understandable in the language of the spouse and has to be translated AND read/spoken by an official translator where the spouse is present BEFORE the prenuptial agreement is signed (Notary's office).

LaoPo

[fletchsmile]

I doubt it has ruined your relationship. A real relationship would be able to work thru disagreements like this, or even where one party thinks the other doesn't trust them. If you can't work thru this situation I doubt you would work thru many of the others that will come up in life together, so it would probably be for the best.

I think you already know what is best for you. You need to put yourself in her shoes and think what is best for her and find some common ground. i.e I think you need to pin down why she feels so strongly. You are both taking risks in marriage. She may well be thinking, if 5-10 years down the line you leave her, as many spouses do her chances of remarriage are few and far between. You've already shown you have considered the possibility of you parting ways. Who will then help provide for her and her family?

I'm not an expert on pre-nups and don't have one. But is it worth considering you writing a certain settlement you are both comfortable into the pre-nup?. i.e if you divorce she would get xyz or abc%. Could you also throw in time periods of what happens if you divorce within or after x / y period of time. Using both these factors you could actually demonstrate you are trying to ensure she is looked after whatever happens. Rather than hey if we split up you get nothing.

eg if you promise an absolute amount of cash, or % you're guaranteeing something. Given that Thailand is much cheaper, I'm sure she could go a long way on say 10% (arbitray amount) of what you have. Anyway just a thought or two as a compromise. If you left with 90% I'm sure you'd consider it worth the risk, no matter how good/bad she treated you.

BTW Under Thai law, they separate assets into Sin Suan Tua (Seprate Property) and Sin Somros (Community Property), the former being largely property you own before marriage. You might find the following useful

http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publicati...usband_wife.pdf

It would be more under foreign law the weight would shift to your partner. eg if she divorced you in Canada, that you'd need the pre-nup.

Edited July 29, 2007 by fletchthai68

[twix38]

"Past being a bg has no relevance here"

I beg to differ. In the real world, ones background, influences and lifestyle ALWAYS have a relevance.

If a guy comes out of Prision, they are statistically much more likely to comit a crime (re-offend) than joe public. Of course her life's background and experiences will and do make a certain amount of generalisation a statistical relevance and a wary footnote, even if there are exceptions.

The OP should know himself how trustworthy and honest she is, but I can only generalise and suspect from previously read, heard and seen real life examples. That's good enough for me to make a general point to others and on my own behalf I would not trust most bg's as far as I could throw them.

There is a definite additional risk in finding a good, reliable, sincere girl after they have been mixing in this occupation, as far as good marriage material goes.

Edited July 29, 2007 by twix38

[elsie]

"Past being a bg has no relevance here"

I beg to differ. In the real world, ones background, influences and lifestyle ALWAYS have a relevance.

Agreed.

I can see a little bit why she is upset. Like a few posters said above, she sees it as you don't trust her. Either that, or she's in it for the money. Many Thai girls who don't have a lot of experience/knowledge about the West will probably feel insulted at first. But they should be willing to see things from your point of view.

As for myself, I will definitely sign a pre-nuptial agreement. When I was planning to marry a certain someone, I did bring the subject up and told him I would sign it for him (he had a lot more to lose than I). He said he trusted me and that he wouldn't want one. I told him I wanted to be with him for who he was, and this was one way to show him. I personally see it as showing him I am not in it for the money, and making him feel secure. Lord knows what future holds. People divorce every day.

And having a pre-nuptial agreement doesn't mean you'll have to use it. So, what's the problem?

So, I'm saying like a few others. OP, stand your ground. If she cares about you enough, she will have to try and see where you're coming from.

[thaitang]

I hope you're not a TROLL since you would be wasting time for a lot of us.

<-- no TROLL here. i have been reading the feedback & really appreciate the time taken to reply.

Just move back to Thailand and holiday in Canada............and apologise to her.

this would really be the ideal situation. although i have enuff money to be comfortable & enjoy life pretty good i would still like to sock away cash for another 5-7 years before i would like to think of retiring like that.

so even tho i asked the GF to marry me & she said yes, the original idea was to have her visit me back here in canada. naive at the time with regards to how difficult a travel visa would be for her to get to visit me at home. i thought she could just come visit me for like 6 months at a time, go home for a bit & re-apply for a nother 6 moth travel visa if she liked it here in canada, all the while i would be working.

Have a Thai wedding ceromony ONLY. Not legal and important to Thaia's and dowry payment due. No pre-nup needed

so we actually need to register the marriage for her PR application to canada so that she can come back to canada with me. so the pre-nup is more for the fact that we will be living in canada as a married couple.

You don't mention if the agreement offers compensation should the marriage end.

i feel somewhat ashamed to admit that NO, the agreement doesn't offer any sort of compensation in the event the marriage ever goes sour. what a great point, something i honestly didn't think of, DOH! i see now that if i have enough concerns to bring up the matter of a pre-nup she must also have enough concerns that if the marriage ends in 5 or even worse 10+ years, then where will that leave her?

Better have it translated in Thai and I'm sure a good lawyer could pick it apart even then.

I don't know the laws in OP's country but in my case it is the law that the Prenuptial agreement is understandable in the language of the spouse and has to be translated AND read/spoken by an official translator where the spouse is present BEFORE the prenuptial agreement is signed (Notary's office).

i already have been in touch with a few thai lawyers office with regards to getting the pre-nup translated. the pre-nup in canada needs to be written in both offical languages of each of us to be legal. i also asked the GF to go to a lawyer/notary public & to give her the chance to ask whatever questions she feels necessary in hopes she might feel more at ease with the 8 page document i sent to her which although she says she read all of i know she probably didn't understand 50-75% of. however she declined on that suggestion also.

Pre nups are crazy you are planning for divorce before you even marry.

i don't like to think because i would like to protect myself before marriage with a pre-nup that i am planning for divorce before we marry, any more than i am planning to get run over by a truck in the midlle of the street & end up using the health/life insurance i had bought in the unlikely event that or similar ever happens.

wow, like i said i sure appreciate the time taken. it has gone a long way to help me de-stress about this situation i am in & hopefully can also help to get things back on track for my GF & i.

tt