Has A Prenutial/pre-marital Agreement Ruined My Future Relationship?

[britmaveric]

"Past being a bg has no relevance here"

I beg to differ. In the real world, ones background, influences and lifestyle ALWAYS have a relevance.

If a guy comes out of Prision, they are statistically much more likely to comit a crime (re-offend) than joe public. Of course her life's background and experiences will and do make a certain amount of generalisation a statistical relevance and a wary footnote, even if there are exceptions.

The OP should know himself how trustworthy and honest she is, but I can only generalise and suspect from previously read, heard and seen real life examples. That's good enough for me to make a general point to others and on my own behalf I would not trust most bg's as far as I could throw them.

There is a definite additional risk in finding a good, reliable, sincere girl after they have been mixing in this occupation, as far as good marriage material goes.

Not really mate - I don't judge people. I know of countless good marriages from the category you describe and I know mates who have married those in the supposed good category and well they are in trouble or divorced now. So look past the facade and into the person, not some tired old cliche.

[elsie]

Not really mate - I don't judge people.

It's not about judging people. Past/history/experience/background makes who we are now. Having had to survive a rather unpleasant career will very likely have influences on your attitudes and all that. Same goes for other aspects of life.

[twix38]

That is of course correct elsie. Well done.

Judge each as an individual and on their own merit, character and personality by all means, but bear in mind their influences and life experiences and be aware that they cannot help but form an individual's view to life and their priorities, such as, to seek a better life if it presents itself (possibly time and time again).

So, although it can work out fine and generalisations can be more miss than hit at times, I can honestly say that the majority of bar girls I have come into contact with rather advance my view and steriotype to steer clear of, for a relationship or heaven forbid marriage! In all my time I have never met a prostitute I really trust to be faithfull, monogamous and sincere enough, but I am well aware of the long game or the shorter one to reel in the punter and I am certain of the clear motivation for a better life and $$$'s.

I happen to think a well brought up professional lady who has never been a prostitute and has a certain level of education or common sense is a much better generalisation to use as a starting point for potential marriage. Sure cultural differences etc leave no guarantees and many marriages fail whether bg's or not.

There are not any prostitues in my own country I could ever imagine knowingly dating or marrying and not any in Thailand either, even though it feels much more benign, friendly and sincere in Thailand.

I know Thai BG's are attentive, friendly, smiling and I know they are after your money 90+ times out of 100. For the few success stories there are many more hard luck stories and broken dreams and I know of some of these type too.

Edited July 29, 2007 by twix38

[britmaveric]

[twix38]

lol

it's not for me anyway.

all the best

[andreaZ]

If you're set on a prenup…

Make sure you both have independent lawyers and both lawyers together negotiate the final document. This way her interests/rights are also taken care of, which if you do care for her I'm sure you would also be concerned about.

You mentioned she didn't want to see a lawyer, and perhaps this is because it would be costly to her. Perhaps you can gift her some cash (the prenup is your idea after all), but it's important she herself pays her lawyer rather than you so there is no conflict of interest.

The language issue was also mentioned and, yes, you should have a properly certified Thai translation signed by her. There should also be a clause in the English document, and subsequently in the certified translation, that in case of any discrepancy the English stands as the authority. (Unless you both agree the Thai as the authoritative document, which I doubt you would want if you plan to use it primarily in a Canadian court)

It might be best for both of you to use an international law firm that has offices in Canada and Thailand, who can advise on the Thai and Canadian situation, rather than consulting one lawyer in Canada and another in Thailand. This way you both *may* just get an agreement that is enforceable in both countries, although as others have noted prenups are rarely iron-clad. Of course this may cost more, but like most things you get what you pay for.

Wish you both the best and, you never know, if your girlfriend sees that you are prepared to pay for a lawyer to act in her interests and are not just concerned about your own situation, she may not be so upset by the whole process. She may even think it is a good idea! Regardless of preconceptions, correct or not, about bargirls, she is quite right not to sign what I'm guessing is a document prepared by your lawyer, in your language, without her own legal advice.

[LaReina]

I think you already know what is best for you. You need to put yourself in her shoes and think what is best for her and find some common ground. i.e I think you need to pin down why she feels so strongly. You are both taking risks in marriage. She may well be thinking, if 5-10 years down the line you leave her, as many spouses do her chances of remarriage are few and far between. You've already shown you have considered the possibility of you parting ways. Who will then help provide for her and her family?

eg if you promise an absolute amount of cash, or % you're guaranteeing something. Given that Thailand is much cheaper, I'm sure she could go a long way on say 10% (arbitray amount) of what you have. Anyway just a thought or two as a compromise. If you left with 90% I'm sure you'd consider it worth the risk, no matter how good/bad she treated you.

Who was providing for her family before you/a man came along?

Men are so weird. Half of you complain about losing all you owned in the divorce, and yet you think of compensation for marriage and a persons in ability to find another mate when older.

How twisted is that?

Why not focus on a wife who is a partner, who can stand on her own two feet, an equal, instead of somone that has to lean on you, and be compensated if you decide to part ways at a later stage in life. It is almost as if secretly there is a desire to be the all controlling God in the relationship so that she is completely dependant in which case she would need compensation. A wife with a severance package.

If you did not come along, and no-one married her, who would support her in her old age? The Thai social security system?

If you marry and move to Canada then it is HER responsibility to get her self a good education, and pick a good major, and think of how SHE can help support her family back in Thailand. She needs to think of the BOTH of your retirement plans... and what would happen (heavens forbid) if you were to get sick, or something were to happen and you can no longer be the 100% bread winner.. and QUIT worrying about the Pre-nup.

On the flip side if you do not want her to be the best that she can be, well .... then.... then that is another story.

[fletchsmile]

LaReina, To quote yourself earlier in the post:

"If I was loaded, I would have had my husband sign a pre-nup. If my husband were loaded and he asked me to sign one, I would not have bat an eye. I would have signed it because!!!!!!!! I love him, and want to be with him, and if that is what it takes to make him happy, then so be it."

In their relationship (thru many Thai eyes at least) he is effectively loaded and she is not. Remember this is happening in Thailand, to a wealthier foreigner with a less wealthy lady from a poorer country. Hence the guy is trying to protect what he has, as you recommend, and you would do, but still wants to pursue his relationship.

The whole point of a pre-nup is to agree what happens if things go wrong. If you want to have a prenup then agreeing a compromise fair to both parties, seems the way to go. Where does it say prenups have to be solely for the benefit of one partner?

Like it or not though, the way you think about a pre-nup is a reflection of what you think. You're forgetting he has also broached the subject of a pre-nup, which was largely in his favour, and it didn't go down too well. If they want the relationship to continue, then either someone gives in or they compromise. My suggestion is that they talk about it and compromise if they are still interested in the relationship. Because of the inequality in their wealth, I think it's easier to come up with something fair/appropriate to both. 10% say would be little to him, but maybe a lot to her. Marriages aren't about power struggles and winning arguments.

Edited July 30, 2007 by fletchthai68

[canadiangirl]

Dear OP,

I respect where you're coming from, and it sounds like you really care for your wife-to-be, so I wish you both good luck in finding a solution that works for the two of you!

But I have to say that, while being far from a golddigger, I would feel sad and shocked in my husband-to-be asked me to sign a pre-nup. I respect that each person has their own view of marriage, but for me, I won't get married until I feel ready to invest everything that I have into making a life together, with someone who feels the same. What matters isn't so much what amount of "stuff" we each bring to the relationship -- but that each of us has commited 100% of what we have to each other.

Maybe your girlfriend might feel like the pre-nup is a sign of you not being 100% commited to making it work, of hedging your bets. I don't mean to say that this what is in your heart, but maybe it is how it comes across to her.

[DamianMavis]

On the other hand her signing the prenup is a sweet and loving gesture and attempt at proving HER love and commitment to a lifelong relationship since if she gets nothing in the event of a divorce she will not choose that route for any other reason than an unhappy marriage and not in a ploy for financial gain. Her signing is showing her 100% commitment to making it work. If she doesnt sign then SHE is hedging HER bets and preparing for the chance they break up and she can get money from him.

Damian

[November Rain]

Just my 2 penn'orth. I'm with canadiangirl. I would be very upset if anyone asked me to sign a pre-nup. To me it would smack of my future husband not trusting me & also caring more about his assets than he did about me.

For the record, my marriage did break down & apart from asking my husband to buy me out of our jointly owned house (which I had contributed financially towards - and which he did, at vastly less than my half was worth), I have not asked him for a penny. He does not & never has paid me any form of alimony or support or other settlement. So, some of us women do have the integrity not to fleece our partner when our marriages fail. Having said that, we had no kids. Had we had children, I would have expected adequate support for them.

I think pre-nups say a lot more about the person asking for them (and their view of their partner) than the person being asked to sign, personally.

[jumnien]

I think some people are missing the point that it is a pre-nuptial agreement not a pre-nuptial mandate. If you both can't come to a mutually acceptable agreement before you are married, what is marriage going to be like? In my agreement with my wife far more is provided for her than would be under Thai law. It's not to come out ahead that we went thru the process. It did protect my mother's income which I provide for and other situations like this. As for canadian girl's suggestion that if I trusted my wife I would be willing to put my mother's monthly income at risk, well, I don't think so!

[DamianMavis]

Canadiangirl and November Rain, c'mon, this isn't about prenuptial agreements, this is about prenuptial agreement with a BARGIRL. Do you really put yourself in her shoes and find commonalities with her and think that she will act and behave in anyway similar to you? And that some form of protection is not in order for the man?! C'MON! seriously.

I don't get it anyway, my woman is definately going to want a prenutial and I don't blame her, why should I get to marry her and then take her money a few years later in a divorce? How do I deserve anything that was hers before we got married?! I just don't get it. It's not a matter of trust or faith or planning to break up, its just common sense. And by signing the prenuptial she KNOWS I love her and has no worries or anxiety about the future and leaves us to just enjoy our love.

Damian

Edited July 30, 2007 by DamianMavis

[LaoPo]

Just my 2 penn'orth. I'm with canadiangirl. I would be very upset if anyone asked me to sign a pre-nup. To me it would smack of my future husband not trusting me & also caring more about his assets than he did about me.

For the record, my marriage did break down & apart from asking my husband to buy me out of our jointly owned house (which I had contributed financially towards - and which he did, at vastly less than my half was worth), I have not asked him for a penny. He does not & never has paid me any form of alimony or support or other settlement. So, some of us women do have the integrity not to fleece our partner when our marriages fail. Having said that, we had no kids. Had we had children, I would have expected adequate support for them.

I think pre-nups say a lot more about the person asking for them (and their view of their partner) than the person being asked to sign, personally.

I'm surprised by your 'old fashioned' view and way of thinking, November Rain.

A prenuptial agreement is to protect BOTH parties. There are thousands of reasons WHY a prenup is important before you marry.

One important one is to protect the wife if a man goes bankrupt or vice versa; ever thought of that?

The assets/house/money/cars of the partner cannot be claimed by the tax people or others and THUS, just for that one reason alone, it is extremely important to sign a prenup and it has NOTHING but NOTHING to do with trust; on the contrary...

There is another important reason: if the man/woman was married before and has child(ren); if there is NO prenup the danger could occur ,that if the one with most assets passes away, the other partner inherits all of the assets, leaving the child(ren) in the cold.

THAT would not be fair towards the children of the deceased. It would become even more dramatic if the man/woman has child(ren) with the new partner...think of that.

Let me put it another way, and these things DO happen!

Assume you inherit or win an enormous amount of money. You're single.....you meet someone not so well off, or even poor....you fall in love and want to marry...

What would you do ? Split the money 50/50 because you are so much in love....he/she is soooooooooo good in bed...buy you flowers all the time....????

I could go on but the FACTS are that marriages DO break up, even after a short while and MOST marriages break up in a bitter dispute.

What would YOU do ?

ALWAYS a prenuptial agreement.

LaoPo

[DamianMavis]

Ahmen, it's just common sense. Can't live with your head in a fairy tale, life is far too harsh.

Damian

[November Rain]

I probably know a lot more than you that life is harsh, DM.

I'm sorry you're surprised by my old-fashioned view, LaoPo, but it's my view. And, yes, it applies the other way around. My last BF had a lot less than me, financially; if we'd got married I would not have suggested a pre-nup. No amount of argument will change my view, nor either of yours, I'm sure.

And, LaoPo, I also (as I said) have experience of a marriage ending in acrimony. Still doesn't change my view.

Edited July 30, 2007 by November Rain

[OxfordWill]

If she is a decent person and not after you to screw you over, then my assumption here would be she doesnt fully understand what a prenup is and why you want one. Can you get a Thai person (older, male) to explain to her in proper Thai with no language difficulties?

If she is not a decent person, and you really have no way to be certain after just 18 months, then she is simpy worrying about having chosen the wrong victim. (consciencesly or not).

[canadiangirl]

I think some people are missing the point that it is a pre-nuptial agreement not a pre-nuptial mandate. If you both can't come to a mutually acceptable agreement before you are married, what is marriage going to be like? In my agreement with my wife far more is provided for her than would be under Thai law. It's not to come out ahead that we went thru the process. It did protect my mother's income which I provide for and other situations like this. As for canadian girl's suggestion that if I trusted my wife I would be willing to put my mother's monthly income at risk, well, I don't think so!

Hi mdeland,

I'm sorry you take such strong offence at my post, because if you go and reread it, you'll notice I was careful to say that this is my personal view of marriage, and I respect other people's right to arrange things differently for themselves -- please respect mine.

[canadiangirl]

Canadiangirl and November Rain, c'mon, this isn't about prenuptial agreements, this is about prenuptial agreement with a BARGIRL. Do you really put yourself in her shoes and find commonalities with her and think that she will act and behave in anyway similar to you? And that some form of protection is not in order for the man?! C'MON! seriously.

I don't get it anyway, my woman is definately going to want a prenutial and I don't blame her, why should I get to marry her and then take her money a few years later in a divorce? How do I deserve anything that was hers before we got married?! I just don't get it. It's not a matter of trust or faith or planning to break up, its just common sense. And by signing the prenuptial she KNOWS I love her and has no worries or anxiety about the future and leaves us to just enjoy our love.

Damian

Hi Damian,

I respect your more pragmatic view of marriage, but I don't share it. Please respect my view as well.

Obviously, no one's opinion really matters, except for the two people involved.

I'm a pretty independant person, and I've never been set on getting married. I would, if the right person comes along, but it's not something that absolutely has to happen for me to be happy. Correspondingly, my views on marriage are strong: the kind of person I would marry is the kind of person I would want with me at the end of the world, for better or for worse, the kind of person I would die for and live for, who would do the same for me. If I don't feel this strongly about someone, I wouldn't marry them. Again, you don't have to share my view, but please respect mine.

As for bargirls, I see nothing wrong with being a bargirl, or marrying a bargirl -- whatever makes you happy, but what I wouldn't do is marry someone that I looked down on in any way.

Edited July 30, 2007 by canadiangirl

[OxfordWill]

As an aside..Isn't it odd- this idea that is so fashionable now that two opposing opinions must be mutually "respected"?

An opinion is only as respectable as the argument it contains and it is only on the merit of the arguments validity and force (or lack of force) of logic which compels anyone to respect (or not respect) it.

But then maybe I'm just old fashioned.

[canadiangirl]

As an aside..Isn't it odd- this idea that is so fashionable now that two opposing opinions must be mutually "respected"?

An opinion is only as respectable as the argument it contains and it is only on the merit of the arguments validity and force (or lack of force) of logic which compels anyone to respect (or not respect) it.

But then maybe I'm just old fashioned.

I wouldn't call civilised conversation a "fashion".

[LaoPo]

Correspondingly, my views on marriage are strong: the kind of person I would marry is the kind of person I would want with me at the end of the world, for better or for worse, the kind of person I would die for and live for, who would do the same for me.

Most couples who marry have the same intentions as you, Canadiangirl.

Nevertheless, a lot of the same couples end up in a divorce, whatever the reasons.

That's exactly why a prenuptial agreement should be considered, unfortunately, but true.

To protect both parties. Quite a few people fail to see the advantages; they only see: MISTRUST...

LaoPo

[DamianMavis]

Nobodys disrespecting anybodys opinion. Just disagreeing completely. But just to be clear, I only MILDLY disagree with you about prenuptial agreements, it's actually not that big a deal UNTIL you roll in the bargirl factor. Then I vehemently disagree with you. Just to be clear, a bargirl is a HOOKER, a woman that has sex for money with multiple strange men (if possible) each night (not counting slow nights and days off). You see nothing wrong with that, well you probably have very little experience with them, after all you are not their target. These women don't know what love is, they see men as an opportunity to scam, lie and steal from. Getting into a situation with a woman like that where they can potentialy take LOTS of money from you is beyond stupid.

Damian

[canadiangirl]

it's actually not that big a deal UNTIL you roll in the bargirl factor. Then I vehemently disagree with you. Just to be clear, a bargirl is a HOOKER, a woman that has sex for money with multiple strange men (if possible) each night (not counting slow nights and days off). You see nothing wrong with that, well you probably have very little experience with them,

Hey Damian,

I'm familiar with the type. I have a few Thai gay friends that are not really barboys -- but, let's say -- freelancers. I've seen the endless parade of older farang boyfriends -- each thinking they are the only ones -- the money sent from abroad, the text messages, the creative lying. They've been good friends to me -- a straight girl -- but I wouldn't consider them relationship material, never mind marriage material, if I were a gay man.

So I don't disagree with you about your concerns re: dating a hooker -- but to me the solution lies in not marrying someone that I can't trust, not in treating family like business.

[thaitang]

not in treating family like business.

i guess you nailed it almost bang-on canadiangirl.

so i did try talking to the GF last nite. i explained that i wanted to discuss the possibility of providing some sort of security in the future in the event things with marriage go sour.

well her response was that she doesn't know why i have to treat getting married like a business deal. i did truely feel bad. it was almost as if i could hear the life of our relationship being drained to almost nothing.

there is NO doubt about the love i have for my GF, but i still think a pre-nup is the way to go for me. there is almost no doubt for me how much my GF loves me, but in the end i guess there is no room in a marriage for a pre-nup for her.

oh well i never would have saw us ending up like this. but i guess there isn't much of any place else to go from here.

Has A Prenutial/pre-marital Agreement Ruined My Future Relationship?

it would appear so.

tt

[teacup]

To the OP

From you post…what I’m seeing here is all about you, not her. Whether she will sign the prenup or not, is irrelevant. It’s you who obviously having doubts with this relationship. When you ask her to sign one, that is like saying to yourself…. you are not really sure if you two will make it. If she is the right one for you, the money shouldn't matter and will never be an issue. Besides, if it's true love, it'll never come to divorce correct? If you think she may turn into a gold digger after you say "I do", then do not marry her!

Think about it in the ongoing relationship between two of you after the ceremony. Isn’t it giving you,somewhat “subconsciously”, the permission not to work as hard on your relationship because nothing is at stake here?. In the end the only thing you walk away with will probably be a bunch of some honeymoon pictures, is this all you want from the marriage?

[DamianMavis]

Canadiangirl, Well ya, step one is DON'T MARRY A HOOKER. But if you fail at that then get a prenup haha.

Damian

Edited July 30, 2007 by DamianMavis

[canadiangirl]

not in treating family like business.

i guess you nailed it almost bang-on canadiangirl.

so i did try talking to the GF last nite. i explained that i wanted to discuss the possibility of providing some sort of security in the future in the event things with marriage go sour.

well her response was that she doesn't know why i have to treat getting married like a business deal. i did truely feel bad. it was almost as if i could hear the life of our relationship being drained to almost nothing.

there is NO doubt about the love i have for my GF, but i still think a pre-nup is the way to go for me. there is almost no doubt for me how much my GF loves me, but in the end i guess there is no room in a marriage for a pre-nup for her.

Dear Thaitang,

I am truly sorry to hear this. From your post, you sound like you truly care for your girlfriend. I don't think you were doing anything "wrong" by asking for a pre-up -- just that it doesn't fit into my own personal idea of marriage. I am sad to hear that this turns out to be the case for her as well. I guess in the end it's no different from any other major issue where people love each other but have incompatible views: kids vs. no kids, staying at home vs. working, where to live, taking care of parents, etc.

I had a wonderful Chinese boyfriend that I almost married, but one major issue was the idea of his parents one day coming to live with us. He was absolutely marvelous, but his parents didn't like me because I'm white, and I had a really hard time contemplating 20 years of my life defering to an bossy Chinese mother-in-law in my own house. This isn't what broke us up, but it would have definitely been a thorny one to work out, had we gotten married.

I respect you for being honest and upfront about your values with your girlfriend. I hope that you can either find a way to make it work together, or someday find someone compatible to share your life with.

[canadiangirl]

Canadiangirl, Well ya, step one is DON'T MARRY A HOOKER. But if you fail at that then get a prenup haha.

Damian

A recipe for success!

[thaitang]

if she is the right one for you, the money shouldn't matter and will never be an issue.

if i am the right man for my GF, the pre-nup shouldn't matter and will never be an issue. yeah?

i am actually trying to take money out of the equation. let's remove money from the table & get married becuase i love her & she loves me.

If you think she may turn into a gold digger after you say "I do", then do not marry her!

like i have tried to explain to the GF. it is not her i don't trust. it would be the person (in the hopefully highly unlikely event) i would be divorcing, that i don't trust. heck i don't think i would trust myself let alone anyone else in a divorce. divorce is ugly business & tends to bring out the worst in people.

Besides, if it's true love, it'll never come to divorce correct?

exactly! so that pre-nup should never amount to anything meaningful anyway.

it is just that i feel i am in a situation where i am left swinging in the wind according to canadian law in the event of a divorce without a pre-nup.

my GF is not in that situation. she has all of her family's land in her name. but if we ever do divorce then thai law naturally protects what was hers & what was mine before marriage (not to mention that non-thai's can't own land, i understand that). but what if thai law didn't protect her land & non-thai's were allowed to own land. do you not think there would be discussion about protecting that land in the hopefully very unlikely (but there is always a possibility) event of divorce? i would certainly expect there to be.

i wish canadian law viewed pre-marital interests of a person the same way as thai law does but it doesn't. canadian law leaves it up to the individuals to decide what to protect in the event of a divorce by way of a pre-nup.

well now i am just starting to rant i guess. it is what it is. i wish it was different but it's not. i feel there isn't much left to do that would make both my GF & myself feel easy about the situation.

tt