Has A Prenutial/pre-marital Agreement Ruined My Future Relationship?

[sbk]

Wow, I guess I must have a really old fashioned opinion of relationships, commitment and marriage. For me, anyway, its not all about what I want or what I get from it but what I can give. Relationships are a two way street and if the only thing you can see is what is in it for you then perhaps you are better off with someone who is only in it for the money. At least then the motivations and considerations are clear.

[sierra01]

Wow, I guess I must have a really old fashioned opinion of relationships, commitment and marriage. For me, anyway, its not all about what I want or what I get from it but what I can give. Relationships are a two way street and if the only thing you can see is what is in it for you then perhaps you are better off with someone who is only in it for the money. At least then the motivations and considerations are clear.

No offence sbk but I think you are seeing this in an old fashioned way. In the old days pre nups were unheard of, at least among us poor bu**ers anyway! IF divorce came about the man lost his shirt and sometimes paid maintenance, sometimes not. Now us men are wiser, some anyway, and we'd like to keep a little something. Thai women have something of a reputation of giving plastic love, maybe to get to the west, maybe to secure their future, real love only plays a small part, if any, in it. That's not always the case how often has the guy lost a great deal of money in LOS, be it in the form of actual money, property, land or whatever. Now we're trying even it out a bit, trying to make sure it's not a rip off or scam.

I'm all in favor of each party keeping what they already had before the relationship started, and a 50/50 split of anything accrued during the relationship, with allowances made for the woman not working because of kids. The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?

[November Rain]

Wow, I guess I must have a really old fashioned opinion of relationships, commitment and marriage. For me, anyway, its not all about what I want or what I get from it but what I can give. Relationships are a two way street and if the only thing you can see is what is in it for you then perhaps you are better off with someone who is only in it for the money. At least then the motivations and considerations are clear.

No offence sbk but I think you are seeing this in an old fashioned way. In the old days pre nups were unheard of, at least among us poor bu**ers anyway! IF divorce came about the man lost his shirt and sometimes paid maintenance, sometimes not. Now us men are wiser, some anyway, and we'd like to keep a little something. Thai women have something of a reputation of giving plastic love, maybe to get to the west, maybe to secure their future, real love only plays a small part, if any, in it. That's not always the case how often has the guy lost a great deal of money in LOS, be it in the form of actual money, property, land or whatever. Now we're trying even it out a bit, trying to make sure it's not a rip off or scam.

I'm all in favor of each party keeping what they already had before the relationship started, and a 50/50 split of anything accrued during the relationship, with allowances made for the woman not working because of kids. The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?

If that's genuinely what you guys feel about Thai women (I'm waiting for the outcry, here! ) then why do so many of you come here to marry said Thai women?

[solo siam]

Wow, I guess I must have a really old fashioned opinion of relationships, commitment and marriage. For me, anyway, its not all about what I want or what I get from it but what I can give. Relationships are a two way street and if the only thing you can see is what is in it for you then perhaps you are better off with someone who is only in it for the money. At least then the motivations and considerations are clear.

No offence sbk but I think you are seeing this in an old fashioned way. In the old days pre nups were unheard of, at least among us poor bu**ers anyway! IF divorce came about the man lost his shirt and sometimes paid maintenance, sometimes not. Now us men are wiser, some anyway, and we'd like to keep a little something. Thai women have something of a reputation of giving plastic love, maybe to get to the west, maybe to secure their future, real love only plays a small part, if any, in it. That's not always the case how often has the guy lost a great deal of money in LOS, be it in the form of actual money, property, land or whatever. Now we're trying even it out a bit, trying to make sure it's not a rip off or scam.

I'm all in favor of each party keeping what they already had before the relationship started, and a 50/50 split of anything accrued during the relationship, with allowances made for the woman not working because of kids. The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?

If that's genuinely what you guys feel about Thai women (I'm waiting for the outcry, here! ) then why do so many of you come here to marry said Thai women?

I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

[Artamus]

quote name='sbk' post='1453428' date='2007-08-03 13:50:20']..... The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?....

I wonder if the ratio of failed marriages is any higher between Thai/farang than farang/farang or Thai/Thai? Anyone care to guestimate or have any statistics? We all hear that failure rates of "western" marriages (UK, US, Aus etc) are about 30-40% (when I last looked - could be more by now )

From my own and friends experiences I'd recon that Thai/farang marriages are in general less doomed to failure than back home - but could that be due to most of them (Thai and farang) coming from the more educated end of the spectrum?

[sierra01]

quote name='sbk' post='1453428' date='2007-08-03 13:50:20']..... The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?....

I wonder if the ratio of failed marriages is any higher between Thai/farang than farang/farang or Thai/Thai? Anyone care to guestimate or have any statistics? We all hear that failure rates of "western" marriages (UK, US, Aus etc) are about 30-40% (when I last looked - could be more by now )

From my own and friends experiences I'd recon that Thai/farang marriages are in general less doomed to failure than back home - but could that be due to most of them (Thai and farang) coming from the more educated end of the spectrum?

I would still be very careful, if I had anything to lose that is! In Thailand farang haven't got much of a leg to stand on, it's stacked against them. The biggest outlay a relationship usually has is property, in Thailand even though most farang stump up for it they have to sign away all claim to it right at the start.

It's a difficult subject, so many 'right' ways to do it, so many 'wrong' ways. My own opinion is that anyone that goes into it without some protection in place needs his bumps felt, any partner that gets the hump because of it I would be a bit wary of.

[Tinkelbell]

Bloody he11, so totally.... freaking......nutso.... foolish......blind..... AHHHHHH. After all this time there are still men that think like this in THIS COUNTRY? Its not like the information is hidden! It's all over the net and papers and social networks. BAR GIRL MAN! Sheet that is the end of the conversation right there, no need to wonder after you mention that. My God, ok, moving along to big obvious sign number TWO: freaks out at a prenup! It's ALL ABOUT MONEY. Wake up my brother, move along and get a real girlfriend, not a woman that has sex for money geeze. I love how men are so arrogant they absolutely refuse to learn from others mistakes. Of course this is the source of the worlds problems right... why do we still have greed and wars? You know why I'm getting so angry? Because you obviously have a good heart and are a good man (although naive and stupid - sorry can't believe you freely admit she's a bargirl but don't see anything dangerous in that) and you don't deserve what is coming to you, but it's definately coming, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. And it makes me so sad.

And Jayhech... couples break up ALL the time, protecting yourself from something bad happening is just COMMON SENSE, it's like using condoms... cripes.

My woman has..... alot more money than I, if and when we get married I am TOTALLY EXPECTING to sign a prenup so that she is protected in the event of some terrible divorce. I love her and want her to feel secure and protected and always never fear that my love is not pure and real and stronger than anything else... including money.

Damian

DamianMavis, couldn't put it better myself.

A woman like her, 29, with a ten years old daughter, working as a BG, little education; has not much chances to meet a prince. Every BG always dream of marrying an eligible bachelor from Western countries. If she ever catchs one that means a meal ticket out of misery .

The OP shouldn't give in, not even an inch. You have all the bargain chips in your hand, don't spoil it. What she's up to now is that she is putting out her best acting to see how far you allow her to. She knows very well, if she misses this once in a life time dream, she is mostly ends up with one of the guys in her inner circle. In any decent Thai family, they never accept BG into family as their in-law. Never ! Period !

To be honest, Thais do not look highly on farangs who married BGs either. And I think some of these mixed couples had experienced this prejudice many times over. It gets to the point that the farang hubbies always start with ....my GF or wife is not a BG..... she is highly educated......

To OP, do not give the impression that you can not live without her. Instead, tell her that you'll take time to cool off to clear your head, and you'll see how fast she would change her bargain chips.

[canadiangirl]

If that's genuinely what you guys feel about Thai women (I'm waiting for the outcry, here! ) then why do so many of you come here to marry said Thai women?

This never ceases to puzzle me!

[November Rain]

Wow, I guess I must have a really old fashioned opinion of relationships, commitment and marriage. For me, anyway, its not all about what I want or what I get from it but what I can give. Relationships are a two way street and if the only thing you can see is what is in it for you then perhaps you are better off with someone who is only in it for the money. At least then the motivations and considerations are clear.

No offence sbk but I think you are seeing this in an old fashioned way. In the old days pre nups were unheard of, at least among us poor bu**ers anyway! IF divorce came about the man lost his shirt and sometimes paid maintenance, sometimes not. Now us men are wiser, some anyway, and we'd like to keep a little something. Thai women have something of a reputation of giving plastic love, maybe to get to the west, maybe to secure their future, real love only plays a small part, if any, in it. That's not always the case how often has the guy lost a great deal of money in LOS, be it in the form of actual money, property, land or whatever. Now we're trying even it out a bit, trying to make sure it's not a rip off or scam.

I'm all in favor of each party keeping what they already had before the relationship started, and a 50/50 split of anything accrued during the relationship, with allowances made for the woman not working because of kids. The rate of divorce is very high these days, the chance of your relationship breaking down IS high, what's wrong with making a fair to each side agreement if it does go south?

If that's genuinely what you guys feel about Thai women (I'm waiting for the outcry, here! ) then why do so many of you come here to marry said Thai women?

I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

Perhaps, but to have two men confirm that this is the way that many men think is sad beyond belief - for both partners in these marriages.

Actually, I think the quote was a huge (& often very unfair) generalisation. But no-one argued with it, just confirmed it. And of course the inherent snobbery about bar girls raised its head again...

Very sad.

[Yamantaka]

i think you have been lucky to see the true nature of your girlfriend's feelings before you married her....i have been here seven years and sadly have seen almost no successful farang-thai marriages....by successful i mean an equal and equitable relationship full of affection, mutual respect and understanding, not "tinted" by the farang's fincial status....

yes there is a huge cultural difference and a pre-nup is something i doubt many thais can comprehend....but i also doubt that having experienced her reaction you could ever feel comfortable and 100% trusting of her motivations in marrying you....

even when a thai woman truly loves a farang man, the financial aspect is almost always part of that love....the level of deprivation here is such a that a farang who brings financial stability to a thai woman and her family becomes an object of respect and love....your money makes her feel secure....making someone feel secure always enhances love....i wonder if in this situation, the person can be separated from the security he brings....

[Sheryl]

A lot of issues here and some unknowns.

First point: should you insist in a pre-nup? IMO it depends on whether or not Canadian law protects assets acquired before marriage or whether under it there is a chance she could take them. My understanding is that they (your assets acquired before marriage) are already protected under Thai law. I don't know Canadian law. If your assets acquired before marriage are protected then I don't see a need for a pre-nup, if they aren't, then yes, you should not marry without one.

BUT, keeping in mind that the plan is for your gf to leave her homeland behind and move to a strange country where she probably has little scope for employment, the pre-nup to be fair should make some provision for her.

Second point: why is she so upset? Lots of possibilities:

- the content of the agreement (with no provision for her) may have been unacceptable to her or made her feel a lack of concern for her welfare on your part.. OR

- she may have difficulty understanding the entire concept, since it is not a Thai custom. There are however Thai customs which serve a similar purpose in terms of protecting the woman (that's what the dowry etc are supposed to help do) and Thai law already protects assets acquired before marriage. You would need to explain to her how Canadian and Thai laws differ and why it is common in Canada to have a pre-nup. Could also present the pre-nup as being in some ways similiar to the Thai dowry/ sin sod custom but needed protect (in this case) the husband since otherwise under Canadian law he could end up losing assets even those acquired before marriage (assuming this is in fact the case. If it is not, then I wonder why you feel the need for a pre-nup??). Annd, of course, the pre-nup should be designed to protect both parties and explained to her as such along with the fact that in Canada divorce sett;lements can be drawn out messy legal affairs. This is all quite new and unfamiliar for a Thai of rural background. In rural Thailand, when a couple breaks up there is usually no legal division of property, they each keep whatever they had in their own name or are physically in possession of, it's usually the husband who splits and the woman is protected by the dowry/sin sod paid to her family and (hopefully, if the parents are conscientious) put aside to assure her future. So lots of cross-cultural differences to be explained....and/OR

-she may have taken offense at the way you talkjed to her about the pre-nup ... OR

- she may have been in this for the money.

Not knowing her, I can't say. Also can't say, if it is any but the last factor, whether it is possible to undo the damage.

One point of caution, I gather from your post that the only reason for getting married was the visa hitch and that you would otherwise have planned on just iving togehther at least for the near future. Which makes me wonder if your relationship is really ready for marriage. While visa rules and physical distance do create barriers that can be painful, it is probably not a good idea to legally marry someone only because of them.

For future reference:

- BE SURE THE PRE-NUP TERMS AND LANGUAGE REFLECT CONCERN FOR HER WELFARE AS WELL AS YOURS

- PRESENT IT AS BEING FOR MUTUAL PROTECTION

- PRESENT IT CAREFULLY AND PROVIDE ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT THE CULTURAL AND LEGAL FACTORS IN YOUR COUNTRY WHICH ACCOUNT FOR THE NEED FOR THIS (maybe enlist the hep of a westernized hai as middleman to explain all this)..

[ianh68]

Past being a bg has no relevance here and it would be bloody obvious if she was only in it for the dosh. I suspect she doesnt understand. Any rate prenups are not enforceable in thailand, so I doubt it makes much difference.

Has anyone got a second opinion on whether prenups are enforceable or not in Thailand?

[alexisthetiny]

That's a tricky question. Possibly, its the same mindset as Chinese people have about buying life insurance, if you prepare for it, you're wishing it on yourself and its sure doom ahead.

Just an idea though, back home, we'd have Singaporean men marry mail order brides from "third world countries" and a handful would ill-treat their wives or start having mistresses outside. Not all, but a handful. And their wives are powerless to do anything because if they did, their husband would divorce them and according to the agreement the agency provides to the guy, she gets sent home with no money. And well, obviously, she can't divorce him either because, see above. I'm sure you're a nice and decent person but sh*t happens all the time and stories DO get around. That she might possibly be leaving with you to live in a foreign country with no family or friends for any amount of time, its not too hard to see how her imagination might start working overtime when you ask for a pre-nup.

The thing is, you want to cover your butt, however, don't forget that she is entitled to want to do the same as well. There's nothing wrong with two people thinking this way because in this day and age, not even marriage is sacred. But if both of you cannot reach a compromise, then marriage isn't on the cards for you. Imagine if you somehow hounded her into it and got married. You would always wonder why she had to be hounded into it and she would always doubt your intentions. Any fool can tell you that's path to a self fulfilling prophecy of doom for the marriage and the relationship.

[tamsin]

hi,

i just wanted to warn that this will be a long long post, but i am looking forward to reading responses from the local thai's that might frequent this forum.

as my topic asks, i need to know if i have ruined my relationship with my long-time thai GF with a prenutial/pre-marital agreement.

me - 37 year old canadian that met my thai GF in bangkok 2 years ago & lived with for 18 months. i have enuff money that i am comfortable & can afford to take life ez & want to find someone to share life with.

thai GF - 29 year old ex-bar girl that i clicked with when we, well clicked. after living with this girl i know she is honest, generous, a great cook, same sense of whacky humour as myself, & we seem to enjoy each other's company. i think we are basically best friends. she has an 11 year old daughter (with local hometown thai guy) but has never previously been married. her daughter has always lived in the GF's home town with her mother (GF's, daughter's, grandmother that is) while the GF worked in bangkok to support her family in the home town.

we - we lived together in thailand for 18 months & we just seemed to mesh. things couldn't have been better from where i stood. we were a perfect fit the entire time.

so after the new thai visa law changes in the fall of 2006 i decided i had to return home to canada. i wanted my GF to come back with me but her tourist visa was refused. i thought at that time no problem because i took the whole tourist visa process very lightly & she was refused as a result.

so i returned home in december 2006 & we kept in touch almost daily. missing my GF beyond belief i asked my GF marry me. she said YES... woohoo ME! she told me how excited her entire family was that she was getting married to me (i have met her mother two times & daughter several times while we were living together in bangkok). i was going to be the first honky to marry a thai in her hometown... it seemed like some kind of an event to be!

we re-applied for a tourist visa for her in april, while i am here in canada & she in bangkok. again i was mistakenly sure it would be no-brainer as i provided so much extra info this time about us. it seems that might have actually been a problem, but that is a whole other discussion in itself. the result was that my GF was again refused a tourist visa to visit me in canada.

so no big problem as we were preparing to marry when i quit my job here in canada to return to thailand in september. we were first planning to do the lawful marriage in bangkok that canada would recognize so we could start her permanent residence application ASAP. we were then going to do the marriage ceremony in her home town as per thai buddist marriage ceremony tradition. i was actually so looking forward to this ceremony as i thought i would quite a great experience!

so we have been planning to marry for 6 months now. we talked about everything including dowry to her mother, my GF's (would then be wife) permanent residence to canada after the marriage, sponsoring her daughter to come to canada after my GF was settled in canada & living together while i worked & socked away some cash so we could eventually retire back in thailand... where i really wanted to get back to!

ever being the stickler for detail, i presented my GF with a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement two weeks ago that would protect everything i have been working for in the past 12 years before we marry. i already was aware that a prenup was not really required for us while we resided in thailand as the thai law already protects a person's pocessions/belongings before a marriage. the prenup i was presenting was in the (hopefully) very unlikely event things between me & the GF went sour & we decided to divorce. i just wanted to protect what i had going into the marriage.

she has alot of land in thailand that is already protected by thai law. i wouldn't want any of that land, even if it was possible in the course of a divorce. i just wanted the same for my pocessions going in.

i think i have made the HUGE mistake of thinking that a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement wouldn't be a problem. it has turned our relationship upside down! i tried to explain that the agreement is in the UNLIKELY event things don't work out! i expect them to work out so hopefully this agreement means nothing in the end. what i currently have will be used to keep us going & happy for a long-hopeful future!

my GF says she doesn't want anything from me in the event we ever decide to divorce. my response being, well put in ink what you say because i know divorce is nasty business & things change at that point. well she just thinks now that i don't trust her.

i have held my ground & i will NOT marry without an agreement, whether it be with her or any female. i have worked too long & hard for what i have now to hand over half in the event things don't work out down the road. i have asked the GF how she would feel if thai family law was different & she had to give me 50% of her land in her homeown if we had to divorce.

unfortunatley she couldn't seem to relate with me. since then everything seems to be on-hold or even pretty much cancelled. my first thoughts are to conclude that if she has such a problem with a prenutial/pre-marital agreement than money has had ALOT more to do with our relationship than what i have believed it has!

or perhaps i really have offended my GF! although i have lived in thailand for 18+ months, there IS alot i need to learn about thai custom. did i offend in such a manner my GF is willing to write off the past two years we spent together because of a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement? i honestly can't believe she could be that offended or upset from this.

i am wondering if the 8 months apart might be a factor in us actually drifting apart & this preuptial/pre-marital agreement is an ez way out of the relationship is that is what she really wants. i know the GF has a friend at work that wants her to move in with her to help share the rent. perhaps this friend is convincing my GF that i am not what she wnats/needs & that the GF should forget me so she can move in with this firend & help share the cost of rent. i am sure this is a LONG shot, but i am thinking of all possible reasons why my GF is so pissed off or upset about a prenuptial/pre-marital agreement i wanted to discuss! we have always been able to talk about everything, but since this we haven't been able to talk about much.

i am beyond gravelling, but i really don't want to give up on my baby! i love her damit! if i have offended her & not even relaized it i would like to know!

is this something that could totally offend a thai? something that might de-mean a thai?

i am not sure what to do next. i know i love her! i hope she still loves me!

any suggestions or input is appreciated!!!

Here we go again. You're like the boring blokes back home who, when in a pub with their mates all having a drink and a larf, will sidle up to some random woman at the bar (probably also enjoying a drink and some convivial company. by the way) and think you can BORE HER STUPID with your problem with your wife/girlfriend, just because she shares the same gender. Na?

[girlx]

why did someone bring up this very old post?

well i for one agree wholeheartedly with damian. OP she's a bargirl! her whole life is about getting money from farangs! of course she is going to balk when you try to prevent that.

[mssabai]

Here we go again. You're like the boring blokes back home who, when in a pub with their mates all having a drink and a larf, will sidle up to some random woman at the bar (probably also enjoying a drink and some convivial company. by the way) and think you can BORE HER STUPID with your problem with your wife/girlfriend, just because she shares the same gender. Na?

Bit harsh Tamsin? Some blokes come on the ladies forum because they get a more sensitive response. I also think the OP's post was valid and interesting.

[Boo]

tamsin, chill out love, you don't have to read it

[LaReina]

So what was the conclusion??

Did she sign the pre-nup or not?

Are you guys married or not??

Status update on what the two of you decided to do?