How will it end?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, AlexRich said:

The Penny always drops, but for the fools that take populists at face value it tends to drop too late.

and populists always benefit when politicians that should know better do terrible things, like inflicting millions of aliens on them without so much as a referendum to see if that is what they want.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Woof999 said:

 

Why would I be? I'm neither Ukrainian nor Russian.

 

What I am though is in total admration of the fight that the Ukrainians are putting up. I also think that they are very much aware that, if they rolled over and surrendered, just as you suggest, Putin would expand his land grab even futher. Yes they are in an awful position with awful choices. Giving in to Putin would likely be the worst of the choices.

 

Things do surprise me though. For example, you say you have a friend 😉

and when they finally negotiate from a position of weakness, rather from one of strength, before people started dying, I'm sure your admiration will cheer the widows and fatherless children of Ukraine. 

 

I just made up the friend- I couldn't possibly have any of those if I don't toe the sheeple conformist  line, could I? 🙂

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:07 AM, AlexRich said:

 

The Lend Lease Act of the United States supplied the Soviet Union with the equivalent of $180 billion (in today's money) of arms and equipment from 1941 - 1945.

 

Without this support the Soviets would have lost the War. 

 

An inconvenient truth that the Soviet lovers on this board will find hard to swallow. 

Actually I am aware of that, and also of the hundreds if not thousands of men that lost their lives transporting the equipment to Russia while under attack by Germans, but in a similar though reversed situation to the present conflict, it was the Russians that died in their millions to defeat Germany. Without lend lease to Russia Germany might still have been defeated by the Allies but at a far greater cost in lives. So, lend lease was worth the money to save American lives.

[Woof999]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and when they finally negotiate from a position of weakness

 

A negotiation that involves giving up swathes of your territory to an invader that still occupies it is already a position of weakness.

 

If a bully is holding you by your throat while telling you to "negotiate", are you in an equal position to talk or are you likely just expecting to capitulate to the bully's demands, which would likely never stop?

 

Ukraine joining NATO is only a threat to Putin, NOT a threat to Russia (although in Putin's mind they are one in the same thing, he IS Russia). A NATO aligned Ukraine would mean the other NATO members would be obliged to support Ukraine if (when) Russia attacked and THAT is the reason Putin could not let it happen. It had nothing to do with a threat to the Russia that already was.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:13 AM, AlexRich said:

 

We have the same in the UK. Then it was Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, in the 1930's. We see the same today with Farage and his Reform party, with extensive links to Russian affiliates. The vast majority of the old muppets who support them have no idea what lurks behind this mob of fascists.

 

They are all linked ... Farage, Le Pen, Trump, Orban, AfD in Germany ... and all roads lead to Russia.  

I never realised till I came on this thread how many western people believe in the Russians bad bad boogyman, western allied good good saviours of humanity.

 

If Russia didn't exist the neocons would have to invent one to scare the children with.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

A negotiation that involves giving up swathes of your territory to an invader that still occupies it is already a position of weakness.

 

If a bully is holding you by your throat while telling you to "negotiate", are you in an equal position to talk or are you likely just expecting to capitulate to the bully's demands, which would likely never stop?

 

Ukraine joining NATO is only a threat to Putin, NOT a threat to Russia (although in Putin's mind they are one in the same thing, he IS Russia). A NATO aligned Ukraine would mean the other NATO members would be obliged to support Ukraine if (when) Russia attacked and THAT is the reason Putin could not let it happen. It had nothing to do with a threat to the Russia that already was.

A NATO aligned Ukraine would mean the other NATO members would be obliged to support Ukraine if (when) Russia attacked and THAT is the reason Putin could not let it happen. It had nothing to do with a threat to the Russia that already was.

 

By that logic Kennedy should have let the Russians put nukes into Cuba.

 

If Putin waited till Ukraine was in NATO it would be a bit late to do anything about it- surely you can see that?

[Woof999]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

By that logic Kennedy should have let the Russians put nukes into Cuba.

 

If Putin waited till Ukraine was in NATO it would be a bit late to do anything about it- surely you can see that?

 

Nukes physically being positioned a few miles off your coast is still a step or ten away from a country joining a defensive alliance.

 

Putin's invasion of Ukraine also cemented Finland's (and Sweden's) joining of NATO, adding 1,300 additional kilometers of direct border with a NATO member. Finland's closest border is roughly the same distance from Moscow as Ukraine's (with the latter being closer), but much, much closer to St Petersburg.

 

Did the master planner Putin not see this coming? If ensuring that any nukes pointed at Russia remaining at longer ranges was Putin's goal then he has achieved the exact opposite.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Woof999 said:

 

Nukes physically being positioned a few miles off your coast is still a step or ten away from a country joining a defensive alliance.

 

Putin's invasion of Ukraine also cemented Finland's (and Sweden's) joining of NATO, adding 1,300 additional kilometers of direct border with a NATO member. Finland's closest border is roughly the same distance from Moscow as Ukraine's (with the latter being closer), but much, much closer to St Petersburg.

 

Did the master planner Putin not see this coming? If ensuring that any nukes pointed at Russia remaining at longer ranges was Putin's goal then he has achieved the exact opposite.

Cuba was joining a defensive alliance. The US was Cuba's enemy, or have you forgotten the bay of Pigs?

If they were in NATO you think the US would not have put nukes on the Russian border?

 

Did the master planner Putin not see this coming?

IMO he thought it would be over before that would happen. I think he didn't realise how effective the Ukrainian resistance would be, or how long they would hold on for. I suspect a few advisors are in a colder place now.

 

You think Putin plans everything himself, seriously? He hasn't lasted this long by being stupid.

 

 

 

[Woof999]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Cuba was joining a defensive alliance. The US was Cuba's enemy, or have you forgotten the bay of Pigs?

 

There is a big difference between joining a defensive alliance and then covertly installing nukes within 100 miles of a major US city. Even today, the US doesn't have land based nukes (to my knowledge) anywhere near that close to Russia (or at least parts of Russia that anyone gives a damn about). That's all almost by the by as nuclear armed submarines are what nations really need to worry about.

 

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If they were in NATO you think the US would not have put nukes on the Russian border?

 

If the US really wanted to provoke the short man then probably yes. Again, with Finland now in NATO he did not stop this happening anyway, so if that was his goal, he's already lost.

 

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You think Putin plans everything himself, seriously? He hasn't lasted this long by being stupid.

 

Of course I don't think he plans everything himself, but I also believe that his planners only toe the line to his objectives. I don't believe he listens to anyone that doesn't share his game plan. Planning what he does and listening to advice that is counter to his objectives are two different things.

 

Stupid is not a word I have used (as far as I can remember) to describe him. Megalomaniac, sure. I've written before that any country who's consitutional laws have been amended to allow a single man to stay in power for extended periods does not bode well for world harmony. Putin is one of a few. Robert Mugabe, Xi Jingping, Hun Sen, The North Korean clan... can you really admire any of their ilk from a humanitarian perspective?

[Woof999]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never realised till I came on this thread how many western people believe in the Russians bad bad boogyman, western allied good good saviours of humanity.

 

If Russia didn't exist the neocons would have to invent one to scare the children with.

 

That comment has zero balance. Spend just a few minutes reading the comments sections of articles on rt.com and you'll see the reverse in operation to a level that's hard to believe.

 

There is a big difference though. The US and the like don't arrest their population for  peaceful demonstrations against a war (sorry, a special miliraty operation) that they don't agree with.

 

 

 

Are these the actions of a nation you seem to want to admire?

 

[BobBKK]

19 hours ago, rabas said:

 

Just to clarify who 'they' refers to:

 

Reuters: Pro-Russian demonstrators burn books, storm buildings in eastern Ukraine (2014)

 

HRU: Blow to History: Ukrainian Literary Works Destroyed in Recent Incidents  'Russians continue to destroy the cultural heritage of Ukraine in the temporarily occupied territories.' (Feb 2023)

 

Russia destroys almost all Ukrainian literature in occupied Donbas, calling it ‘extremist’ (Dec 2023)

 Always two sides to every coin

[BobBKK]

6 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

That comment has zero balance. Spend just a few minutes reading the comments sections of articles on rt.com and you'll see the reverse in operation to a level that's hard to believe.

 

There is a big difference though. The US and the like don't arrest their population for  peaceful demonstrations against a war (sorry, a special miliraty operation) that they don't agree with.

 

 

 

Are these the actions of a nation you seem to want to admire?

 

 That is true; they manipulate the media. A recent democratic election gave Putin 88% on a 78% turnout.

[BobBKK]

3 hours ago, Woof999 said:

 

Why would I be? I'm neither Ukrainian nor Russian.

 

What I am though is in total admration of the fight that the Ukrainians are putting up. I also think that they are very much aware that, if they rolled over and surrendered, just as you suggest, Putin would expand his land grab even futher. Yes they are in an awful position with awful choices. Giving in to Putin would likely be the worst of the choices.

 

Things do surprise me though. For example, you say you have a friend 😉

 "total admration of the fight that the Ukrainians are putting up"

and they do it all alone with sparse resources - amazing haha

[Woof999]

Just now, BobBKK said:

and they do it all alone with sparse resources - amazing haha

Where did I say that they had no help?

 

Neither did I comment on Russia's use of Belarus via Lukashenko, in power via another "democratic" election that you can be proud of.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 "total admration of the fight that the Ukrainians are putting up"

and they do it all alone with sparse resources - amazing haha

I don't know what you've got to laugh about, have a look at your team's abysmal effort, though they are pretty good at flattening old ladies residences........ 

[BobBKK]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

I don't know what you've got to laugh about, have a look at your team's abysmal effort, though they are pretty good at flattening old ladies residences........ 

 

 Going well thanks

[BobBKK]

16 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Where did I say that they had no help?

 

Neither did I comment on Russia's use of Belarus via Lukashenko, in power via another "democratic" election that you can be proud of.

 None of our business - the US can't even secure its own borders, let alone help Ukraine secure theirs. What a farce, and the Ukrainian people suffer terribly.

[Woof999]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

None of our business

 

What is? Russia's use of Belarus? It's as much of our business as the help that Ukraine is receiving, which you brought up.

 

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

the US can't even secure its own borders, let alone help Ukraine secure theirs. What a farce

 

What does US immigration policy and the clusterfcuk that it is creating have to do with any of this? Are you trying to equate that to the power of the US military?

 

Take nuclear weapons off the table and Putin's military is nothing. But we can't take nuclear weapons off the table and Putin rattles that sabre because he has to. Russia has the combined population of France and Germany combined (less in fact). It should be a powerhouse of a nation by its natural resources alone, but it's not. The population is both declining and aging, neither being an precursor to future strength.

 

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

and the Ukrainian people suffer terribly

 

Agreed, yes they do, because of the actions of one man.

 

...and the Russian military youth suffer terribly, for the same exact reason.

[rabas]

44 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Always two sides to every coin

 

And you always carefully mention only one. 

 

Why the sad Bob?  I only provided 3 links to reputable sources. Afraid of truth? 

 

FYI, I'm not the one giving you sads etc. 

[BobBKK]

28 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

What is? Russia's use of Belarus? It's as much of our business as the help that Ukraine is receiving, which you brought up.

 

 

What does US immigration policy and the clusterfcuk that it is creating have to do with any of this? Are you trying to equate that to the power of the US military?

 

Take nuclear weapons off the table and Putin's military is nothing. But we can't take nuclear weapons off the table and Putin rattles that sabre because he has to. Russia has the combined population of France and Germany combined (less in fact). It should be a powerhouse of a nation by its natural resources alone, but it's not. The population is both declining and aging, neither being an precursor to future strength.

 

 

Agreed, yes they do, because of the actions of one man.

 

...and the Russian military youth suffer terribly, for the same exact reason.

 As as I know, Belarus did not send Billions USD to Russia - very poor reasoning

[BobBKK]

18 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

And you always carefully mention only one. 

 

Why the sad Bob?  I only provided 3 links to reputable sources. Afraid of truth? 

 

FYI, I'm not the one giving you sads etc. 

 I think it fair that someone, at least, tries to offer balance, as 90% on here are happy to spew out the MSM BS.

[Woof999]

47 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

As as I know, Belarus did not send Billions USD to Russia - very poor reasoning

 

The thing is, you don't get to set the rules on what counts as "help".

 

Belarus allowed Russia to stage its invasion forces attacking Kiev from Belarus territory, more than halving the distance needed to reach the capital. It also allows Russian missiles to be staged from their territory.

 

Not that they have much of a choice eh. Poor reasoning my arse.

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, Woof999 said:

 

The thing is, you don't get to set the rules on what counts as "help".

 

Belarus allowed Russia to stage its invasion forces attacking Kiev from Belarus territory, more than halving the distance needed to reach the capital. It also allows Russian missiles to be staged from their territory.

 

Not that they have much of a choice eh. Poor reasoning my arse.

 

You just keep on believing MSM brother - I'll seek out the truth
 

 

[rabas]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 I think it fair that someone, at least, tries to offer balance, as 90% on here are happy to spew out the MSM BS.

You provided an unverified accusation with no reference or other info. (drive by shooting)

 

I provided 3 references that the cultural destruction is by Russia, there are 100s or 1000s of references from reputable sources and international organizations.

 

Google: Ukraine cultural destruction

Google: Ukraine cultural destruction books

 

... and choose. Russia is destroying books, libraries. book printers, and  cultural sites. It is deliberate.

 

Where is your evidence? 

 

[Woof999]

14 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

You just keep on believing MSM brother - I'll seek out the truth
 

 

 

I'm surprised you didn't show this one:

 

 

[BobBKK]

15 hours ago, rabas said:

You provided an unverified accusation with no reference or other info. (drive by shooting)

 

I provided 3 references that the cultural destruction is by Russia, there are 100s or 1000s of references from reputable sources and international organizations.

 

Google: Ukraine cultural destruction

Google: Ukraine cultural destruction books

 

... and choose. Russia is destroying books, libraries. book printers, and  cultural sites. It is deliberate.

 

Where is your evidence? 

 

 100s references the other way, too - it's a pointless battle of references. Trump is considering a proposal if he becomes President - basically, Ukraine will lose territory and no NATO. All those deaths for nothing.

[Woof999]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

 100s references the other way, too - it's a pointless battle of references. Trump is considering a proposal if he becomes President - basically, Ukraine will lose territory and no NATO. All those deaths for nothing.

 

That's genius. A solution that keeps everyone happy and ensures that Putin will never decide to invade and land grab again. Sign me up.

 

"All those deaths for nothing". So the wife beater was right. It WAS the wife's fault that her husband had to keep hitting her. If only she'd do what she was told he would stop.

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Woof999 said:

Stupid is not a word I have used (as far as I can remember) to describe him. Megalomaniac, sure. I've written before that any country who's consitutional laws have been amended to allow a single man to stay in power for extended periods does not bode well for world harmony. Putin is one of a few. Robert Mugabe, Xi Jingping, Hun Sen, The North Korean clan... can you really admire any of their ilk from a humanitarian perspective?

If you want to start pointing fingers at politicians for being bad people I can think of some that fit that bill in western countries present and past, warmongers all Nixon, Bush the minor, and the ones you know well in israel, London, France and Washington... can you really admire any of their ilk from a humanitarian perspective?

[BobBKK]

26 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

That's genius. A solution that keeps everyone happy and ensures that Putin will never decide to invade and land grab again. Sign me up.

 

"All those deaths for nothing". So the wife beater was right. It WAS the wife's fault that her husband had to keep hitting her. If only she'd do what she was told he would stop.

 Disingenuous 

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, Woof999 said:

That comment has zero balance. Spend just a few minutes reading the comments sections of articles on rt.com and you'll see the reverse in operation to a level that's hard to believe.

 

There is a big difference though. The US and the like don't arrest their population for  peaceful demonstrations against a war (sorry, a special miliraty operation) that they don't agree with.

Hasn't RT been banned in some western countries? So much for free speech.

 

Didn't some British politician try to make chanting "from the river to the sea" an arrestable offense?