Distemper Oubreak

[November Rain]

Firstly, I hope no-one thinks I'm being rude, but I'd like to ask no-one to give advice who isn't absolutely sure of what they're saying, as this is a critical matter. Thanks.

OK, after 2 weeks of treating some pups for a respiratory illness (under vet supervision) and them not getting any better, despite repeated visits, I received the news yesterday that the illness was "probably distemper".

Some relevant history: We had a distemper outbreak about 2 years ago, while we were using a different vet. He tested each suspected dog (discharge from nose & eyes) & if the result was positive, we (on his recommendation) put the dog to sleep immediately, to avoid risk to the other dogs. We have since changed vets over an unrelated matter, but he is still in town & we could go back to him.

The new vet (whom I've been happy with till now) will not test the dogs. He says the test is unreliable & often gives false results. About 18 pups/dogs are infected at the moment, with a further 6 or so unvaccinated, so at large risk. The reason they were not vaccinated was because they were too young or new (so injured or sick already=cannot vaccinate). There are also another 15 dogs who are vaccinated adults in the same vicinity. None of these are showing any signs.

The new vet says that I need to treat them with antibiotics, vitamins & good food for 4 weeks at least. He says some will die, but some will recover (the old vet told me the chances of a fully healthy recovery were very slim). He says that the vaccinated dogs are at very low risk of getting it, and if they do, they will just get mild symptoms (I was told by the old vet that distemper vaccine was only about 70% - 80% effective, and vaccinated dogs could possibly contract full blown distemper)

OK, so questions:

Can antibiotics treat distemper? I thought it was viral?

Is the test reliable or not?

What is a realistic recovery rate?

Can vaccinated dogs get it & how severely?

I'm sorry, but I don't know which advice I've been given to believe. I am more than willing to try & nurse the dogs through if they have a chance & if the infection chances for the vaccinated dogs is low (too late for isolation now, the affected dogs & unaffected dogs have all been in contact with each other for the last 2 weeks. The initial case, although not showing signs & not brought in for that was isolated, but obviously not well enough). So, what are the facts? Which vet is right?

Thanks for any help - I'm really grateful.

[Tywais]

Very sorry to hear about your pets situation. I'm not an expert but am a pretty good researcher. Regarding viral and antibiotics, it is correct that the antibiotics can not treat the distemper but only side effects such as weakened immune system attacks by bacteria. A couple of good articles for you.

"Many bizarre protocols have emerged over time as we grope for meaningful anti-viral therapy. The fact remains that recovery from distemper is all about immunity and the only real treatment is supportive care while the patient mounts its own immune response. If the patient has pneumonia, antibiotics are used on the secondary bacterial infections. Airway dilators are used as needed. Physical therapy is used to promote cough. If the patient has diarrhea, intravenous fluids are used to prevent dehydration etc."

http://www.animalhealthchannel.com/distemper/diagnosis.shtml

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_canine_distemper.html

http://www.dogchatforum.com/distemper-dog.htm

Since distemper also resembles other infections, just be sure the diagnosis is correct from the vet. Unfortunately the prognosis is not promising if they do have distemper and wish you all the best.

[November Rain]

Thanks, Tywais. Those were very helpful. I'm still not sure about the test's (it's like a pregnancy test, but uses discharge) efficacy. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the articles. Although, the other tests don't seem to be conclusive, either.

Also, how safe are the vaccinated dogs? Anyone know?

I guess the antibiotics are to treat any resultant infections, so that's OK. Will carry on with them.

[Nienke]

The new vet (whom I've been happy with till now) will not test the dogs. He says the test is unreliable & often gives false results. About 18 pups/dogs are infected at the moment, with a further 6 or so unvaccinated, so at large risk. The reason they were not vaccinated was because they were too young or new (so injured or sick already=cannot vaccinate). There are also another 15 dogs who are vaccinated adults in the same vicinity. None of these are showing any signs.

The new vet says that I need to treat them with antibiotics, vitamins & good food for 4 weeks at least. He says some will die, but some will recover (the old vet told me the chances of a fully healthy recovery were very slim). He says that the vaccinated dogs are at very low risk of getting it, and if they do, they will just get mild symptoms (I was told by the old vet that distemper vaccine was only about 70% - 80% effective, and vaccinated dogs could possibly contract full blown distemper)

OK, so questions:

Can antibiotics treat distemper? I thought it was viral? As Tywais already mentioned, anitbiotics does nothing about the virus, but treats possible secondary bacterial infection.

Is the test reliable or not? Not a clue, never done it. The symptoms alone said enough to me.

What is a realistic recovery rate?On regular med's for pups about 70 to 75% fatal. Adults have more chance to survive, depending on their immunity

Can vaccinated dogs get it & how severely?OH YES!!! I recently had an outbreak brought in by vaccinated pups, who got the disease due to the vaccine. ALL dogs at the kennel are vaccinated, still over 15 dogs with symptoms . The dogs most affected were the pups, though. The adults pulled through fairly quickly. But then, treatment started with the first the best sign of disease, meaning you need to be on full alert ALL the time. One iny sneeze, softening of feces, just a little watery drop of nose or from eyes, eating but just a tiny slower than normal, taking temperature twice a day, the first the best cough how soft that may be, smell out of mouth, change of color from tongue, panting while it's cool, etc etc. Also behavioral changes are of extreme importance: dogs suddenly becomes slightly scared, on distance, play less, becoming more dependent, etc. Dogs DO talk, it's just up to us to learn their, often very subtle, language and that's not easy!

I'm sorry, but I don't know which advice I've been given to believe. I am more than willing to try & nurse the dogs through if they have a chance & if the infection chances for the vaccinated dogs is low (too late for isolation now, the affected dogs & unaffected dogs have all been in contact with each other for the last 2 weeks. The initial case, although not showing signs & not brought in for that was isolated, but obviously not well enough). So, what are the facts? Which vet is right?How I know what you are going through and how I symphatize with you! Please, don't blame yourself, as you have done nothing 'wrong'! It's so difficult to recognize signs, because animals will not show that they are not feeling well as easy as us humans do. By the time you do see they are sick, they usually already are sick for a while. Not even to mention the incubation time, where the animals does not show symptoms but is able to spread the virus.

Anyway, in my case I went the homeopathic way with great succes (all but one survived). But I got help for this from abroad (costly) and none received regular med's. Couldn't and still can't do it alone. I can share my experience with you though, but will do that in a private mail later in the day. Have to go to the vet now with a dog that has a severe liver problem after his annual booster (vaccinosis ) Normally the SGPT should be under 89, his is 1100 and is still going up despite the regular treatment he is receiving. So now I've asked advice overseas again. Oh man, how I know what you are going through ... Hang in there !!!!

Nienke

Edited August 1, 2007 by Nienke

[November Rain]

Thanks, Nienke. That's great. I look forward to hearing from you later. OK, most still eating & taking meds OK. One eating, but not taking meds (I put it in liver sausage for palatability), so I have to force them into him, which he hates. One not eating, not taking meds (again I have to force her, but I think she's going to be the next to go - very lethargic.) One died yesterday.

2 more questions: On the links Tywais got, it mentioned IV fluids for dogs not eating. I'm not confident about putting an IV into a sick pup, but will give fluid subcutaneously. How much do I need to give & over what period of time? How often? The pup I'm worried about at the moment is maybe 2 or 3kg.

Any nutrients I can give for pups not eating? Nutrigel or similar? Any suggestions?

[elfe]

hi nr, my sympathies, i know what you're going through rigth now.

as for cure yes there is, but depending on age and severeness some may still die or damage will remain. it is hard work but many will pull through - there's good chance!!!

i had many dogs/pups with any kind of disease, my adult vaccined and healthy dogs never got anything which i am aware of. but to best to seperate them completely of course, also to give the sick ones peace and quiet.

for fluids, put several fluid depots under skin, not too much at one place and not to tight. like one on the neck, one between shoulders, then left and right before the hips at the side. you can do this every 4-5 hours just watch how the fluid will be absorbed. also give sachets with mineral powder, you can dilute in water and give quite concentrated with syringe in the mouth, there is a especial electrolyte for pets but the one for people will do as well. you can give nutrigel and honey for energy. don't try to forcefeed them, if they don't want to eat solid food it is better for them at the moment.

for treatment with antibiotics, this will help as the infected dogs die actually from the diseases as diarrhea, pneumonia which are caused by the virus. so you have to fight these diseases with antibiotics. for virus there are medicines like for the bird flu but very expensive and hard to get, i never used them. for respiratory problems use mucus loosen meds.

clean the eyes thouroughly all the time and apply eyedrops about 4-5 times a day.

antibiotic is doxycycline, but be careful with very sick and weak dogs, if the liver is already damaged this can kill as well. for diarrhea and also respiratory problems augmentin (amoxyclav) is very good.

keep the pups inside, give them bedding and cool room and quiet. very important daily high dose of vitamin b. cooked food, no dry food or from the tin! add little egg or yoghurt or anything, give them real good food! no rice either.

make very sure no ticks or other parasites, give them a drop in the neck and back or use flea powder. parasites weaken the pups even more.

test only shows if virus is active in the eye discharge, if negative cannot count on that surely.

these are just my personal experience. wish you good luck

[BambinA]

I'm still not sure about the test's (it's like a pregnancy test, but uses discharge) efficacy.

Ok i will answer you with this question.

The kit that the vet use is " ELISA test kit for Antigen of CD"

This kit is quite fine.If a dog has never been vaccinated, this test is quite reliable.

However, it is possible to get

1) False Positive in a dog who is vaccinated within 3 weeks of vaccination.

2) False Negative in

- Acute disease

- Early stage of disease /incubation period that viruses do not shed nor spread to the epithelial surfaces of the respiratory, enteric and urogenital tracts, skin and CNS

[Nienke]

2 more questions: On the links Tywais got, it mentioned IV fluids for dogs not eating. I'm not confident about putting an IV into a sick pup, but will give fluid subcutaneously. How much do I need to give & over what period of time? How often? The pup I'm worried about at the moment is maybe 2 or 3kg.

Hi,

A very quick reply, as I'm in the middle of searching for the liver problem dog.

I would be careful with giving fluids to the pups, even when subcutaneous. You can give too much. I just asked my vet this morning. Better to concult Bambina or your own vet about the amounts.

Also cocnerning the other med's, better concult Bambina or your vet about the amounts.

Come back to you later, probably this evening.

Nienke

[BambinA]

Estimation of Fluid Volume Requirements

1+2+3 =total volume /day

1 Existing deficit(ml) = body wt(kg) x % dehydration x 1000

2 maintennance requirments(ml) = body wt(kg) x 40 to 60 ml/kg/day

3 Continuing losses(ml) = estimation of fluid volume loss (ml/day)

example

20 kg dog is dehydrated coz of anorexia an profuse watery diarrhea of 3 days duration (dehydration is estimated to be 8%)

1 Existing deficit(ml) = 20x0.08x1000

2 Maintennance requirments(ml) =20 x 50

3 Continuing losses(ml) = 400 (estimated)

1+2+3 = 1600+1000+400 =3000 ml/day

[November Rain]

My maths is dreadful, Bambi. Asked my vet & he said between 60ml to 100ml per kg per day for a pup. Does that sound about right to you?

[BambinA]

My maths is dreadful, Bambi. Asked my vet & he said between 60ml to 100ml per kg per day for a pup. Does that sound about right to you?

Hi ...

60-100 ml/hg/days is fine and acceptable

As a dog does not have any problem about profused diarrhea and the degree of dehydration is lesser than 5%

so

1 ) 1kg x (0.01 to 0.05)x 1000= 10 to 50

2 ) 1 x (40 to 60) = 40 to 60

3 ) = 0

1+2+3 = 50 to 110 ml/kg in a period of 24 hours(first day)

Edited August 1, 2007 by BambinA

[November Rain]

Thank you so much, everyone. Feel more positive now & will keep you updated.

Thanks so much.

[Mai Krap]

Someone can correct me if they know different but distemper tends to hang in the ground, meaning if you had it 2 years before it is very likely to be the same source attacking the puppies this time.

Sorry your going through this but please keep us informed. Also what are you doing with so many dogs? Do you have a breeding kennel or rescue center or something? I hope you all get well soon, I have 7 dogs currently but two are puppies that will be sold.

[November Rain]

Not the same area, Mai Krap. I've moved since then. I know where it came from - a paraplegic female I brought in with no initial symptoms. I brought her in because she was paraplegic & had a sore on her leg you could virtually fit your fist into.

On one of those links Tywais provided, it said that the virus isn't that hardy (I believe it said 30 mins outside the body?)

Yes, it's a rescue center. Luckily the main center (healthy/cured adults) is in another location, so not affected. The affected area is my home where the sick dogs & pups can be cared for 24/7. Ironic, really

[elfe]

nr - how are your babies today?

[November Rain]

Hi elfe,

The one I was most concerned about yesterday is close to death. She's wheezing, not moving around much, just lying sleeping, not eating or drinking. I'm still giving her meds & nutrigel & fluids subcutaneously, but I'm not optimistic about her chances of seeing tomorrow. One more seems bad (ie lethargic, stopped eating & drinking) so she's getting the same treatment. The rest are still pretty lively, playing & eating & drinking - so I'll just wait & see. (Of course they're all on meds). On observation now, it looks like all but 2 unvaccinated dogs are affected. Those two have had one vaccine (but I'm not sure if 1 vaccine would be enough protection, anyway,) so I'm keeping a close eye on them.

Keeping eyes & noses clean & free of gunk & monitoring them all, constantly - so it's just a waiting game, I guess. Shame is that I've been so busy with these, I haven't been able to get into the dog center itself. My worker is being great & says they're OK up there, but I'll get up extra early tomorrow to find a couple of hours to go up. Not enough hours in the day to do everything

Thanks for your concern

[November Rain]

Update:

Puppy I was most worried about died yesterday afternoon. The next one down the sickness ladder is now in the same state as the previous one was yesterday morning & one more has stopped eating as of this morning.

Thanks for your pm, Nienke. Glad you've found a possible solution for your liver problem dog. I haven't got time to write a proper answer, going to go & start "the rounds" now they've eaten, in a second, but I'll answer one point you made here, if I may? I know subcutaneous isn't enough for when they're not eating or drinking, but as I said, I'm not confident of finding a vein in a tiny sick pup (never mind what damage I might do). I know my vet won't do it - now they have the distemper diagnosis, he's not keen on having them at his surgery at all, lest they infect other patients. So, it's down to me. I am trying to syringe in a little electrolyte solution as well, but she's not taking it very well.

A little sidenote: I'm now not sure where the distemper came from. I was talking to one of our volunteers last night & she was questioning my theory that the paraplegic dog had it (it was never suggested for her, but she did die of a respiratory illness). She couldn't understand how the pups had come down with it first, when they were confined in a seperate area & had no contact. I thought I must have inadvertently cross infected them. She reminded me that at the same time I took in the paraplegic dogs, I had one of the pups in the vets for 2 nights, due to a case of blood parasites. It was the pup who died first this week. I'm now wondering if he was unwittingly cross infected there & he brought it in & infected his siblings. Who knows? Both timings work. I don't suppose it matters, but in the midst of trying to deal with this, I can't help wondering how it came about.

Anyway, off to start today's round 2.

[elfe]

wish you all the strength and nerve to go through all that i know it is so depressing to see them getting worse and nothing really helps hope some will pull through though!!!!

as i went through all this a few years ago, a friend of mine who got many dogs here was and is of the opinion that all this mainly comes from tick disease!! that is also why doxy helps... am not sure about it and will probably never know.

[November Rain]

By 'syringe in electrolyte solution', I meant orally - just realised it sounds like I meant in the subcutaneous infusion!

Thanks for the good wishes, elfe.

[Nienke]

Update:

Puppy I was most worried about died yesterday afternoon. The next one down the sickness ladder is now in the same state as the previous one was yesterday morning & one more has stopped eating as of this morning.Sorry to read this. It's just very hard when this hits.

Thanks for your pm, Nienke. Glad you've found a possible solution for your liver problem dog.Started night before yesterday with teh first dose, yesterday morning another two times a dose, and then to the vet to check the SGPT. IT DROPPED !!!!!!!! yippie, yippie yippie. it was 1100 two days before, and it dropped to 909. Little step by little step, but think this dog is going to make is (most probably with permanent liver damage, but still.) I haven't got time to write a proper answer,don't worry about that, you have your hands and head full ast the moment going to go & start "the rounds" now they've eaten, in a second, but I'll answer one point you made here, if I may? I know subcutaneous isn't enough for when they're not eating or drinking, but as I said, I'm not confident of finding a vein in a tiny sick pup (never mind what damage I might do). I know my vet won't do it - now they have the distemper diagnosis, he's not keen on having them at his surgery at all, lest they infect other patients.I very well understand his reasoning, but he could help in a different way. For example, teach you how to give intravenous, or drop by himself. So, it's down to me. I am trying to syringe in a little electrolyte solution as well, but she's not taking it very well.

A little sidenote: I'm now not sure where the distemper came from. I was talking to one of our volunteers last night & she was questioning my theory that the paraplegic dog had it (it was never suggested for her, but she did die of a respiratory illness). She couldn't understand how the pups had come down with it first, when they were confined in a seperate area & had no contact. I thought I must have inadvertently cross infected them. She reminded me that at the same time I took in the paraplegic dogs, I had one of the pups in the vets for 2 nights, due to a case of blood parasites. It was the pup who died first this week. I'm now wondering if he was unwittingly cross infected there & he brought it in & infected his siblings. Who knows? Both timings work. I don't suppose it matters, but in the midst of trying to deal with this, I can't help wondering how it came about.That's a common questions that keeps us pestering. Of course, it is important to understand how infection occurs, so in future one will be better in preventing this. But please please please, don't blame yourself. These things do happen. Nobody's fault or neglectance.

Hang it there!!

Nienke

Anyway, off to start today's round 2.

[Nienke]

Oh, and please keep in mind:

Those that pass the rainbow bridge will be welcomed at the other side by:

Roller, bigge boss and good uncle, the rott. He was a very wise and sweet guy. and will lead and protect them anywhere

My sweet little Lucky, the boxer who will play with them forever, and teach manners as well.

Daika, another wonerfull wise creature, German shepherd,. She will be like the wise old owl.

Joshka, GSD and brother of my Jenny (who's still on this side of the bridge)

Jasmin, Afghan Lady. Will teach them table manners and how a lady should behave.

Tenbath Aghan and vagebond. Always in for a joke, but as the others a good sweet wise uncle.

They'll be there and take care of anyone who comes over the bridge,

Nienke

[Jet Gorgon]

Hope you are OK, NR, and at least a few of the pups pull through. I had four rescued puppies (at different times) with distemper, one died two weeks after her shot. Two siblings, emaciated with mange and fleas, passed. too. Another, who had a reoccurring infection on her face, survived. All were around older dogs, none of whom contracted it, but they did tend to stay away from the pups, a sign that the little ones wouldn't make it. My vet said females seemed to have a better survival rate.

Good luck and let us know how they do.

You got it, Nienke! Also at Rainbow Bridge Park:

Snuffles, Sampson, BB, Heinie, Laundry, Pizza, Dang, Dimmie, Q, Trooper, Speedy, and they're kittykat sister, Lagaz. Playtime!

My vet needed an accordian file for my brood. One nurse finally asked me about them all; oh, he died, she died...Well, I have been here ten years looking after lots of animals; she says, we only been open for five, Jettie. Gulp. Well, I paid to treat lots of rescued babies...? Felt like a LOSER.

[November Rain]

The rainbow bridge group had two new additions, overnight. RIP, Moon & Caesar.

[Mai Krap]

The rainbow bridge group had two new additions, overnight. RIP, Moon & Caesar.

Sorry for your loss, when my favorite dog died a couple years ago I went into a serious depression and did not even go outside for months. It was not until the birth of my baby that I came out of it, I still think of the dog everyday, it was a huge loss as she was so loyal and completely honest, two things humans tend to be lacking in, at least many in my world.

[pumpuiman]

November Rain,

I don't know where you find the strength. The world is a better place with people like you to inspire us all.

Thank you for your undying compassion and relentless hard work, you truly are an angel.

My heart and prayers go out to you and your pups.

Eric

[elfe]

if one is really able to love and understand and knows how to interact with his dog and what quality can be in there, it will be devastating for him to lose such friend. this friend will never give you reason to doubt its loyalty and love, things you can hardly find in humans but what is what all humans desire in life.

if we chose the love of an animal we also chose the tears which will come when time has come.

all wonderful friends, rest in peace, we know you are waiting for us over there...

[girlx]

i am sorry too november rain- i went through this last year. 9 puppies i was taking care of died of distemper. some of which i had to put down. my friend's adult dog got it and seemed to recover but then developed neurological symptoms and attacked a tourist, so she actually was forced by a group of locals to poison her own pet of 10 years. it's difficult. hang in there and realize they are better off not suffering.

here is the merck veterinary manual entry for canine distemper

Edited August 5, 2007 by girlx

[November Rain]

Thanks all. Pretty depressed today. 3 more have stopped eating. One of them has swelling in her abdomen. I think she's getting ascites (fluid in the abdomen) from not being able to breathe properly & cyanosis. I'll take her to the vet tomorrow, but I'm not sure if he'll treat her.

I don't mean to moan, but when I look at all of the affected dogs, many of whom are still playing, eating & generally happy & I think what awaits them in the next few weeks, I just want to break down & cry. Actually, I have been crying quite a lot - I'm crying now. I will be strong for them. They have no-one else & they need love & care more now than ever. Life's just not fair sometimes, they were all recovering from their various initial problems & now look what's happened. They don't deserve this, they really don't.

Edit - typo

Edited August 5, 2007 by November Rain

[Nienke]

You're not moaning, NR, you're speaking right from your heart! I wrote it already, how much I (and several others TV members) know what you're going through. Watching these innocent playing animals. They don't know anything. Actually they are kind of lucky, because they are living in the NOW, and NOW they are feeling good and are happy. They don't know what you know. They don't look further then what's happening NOW.

And THAT's something YOU have given them. Because there's a big chance that if it wasn't for you they even wouldn't have been able to enjoy this 'NOW'.

Nonetheless, it's heartbreaking and draining for those who are able to look further, then the happy moments they are experiencing at the moment.

Please, at moments of despair think of us. We are behind you, we are there for you. I'll PM my phone number. If you want to call, please do so, if it is only for a talk, to ease your mind a little.

Hang in there!!

Nienke

[November Rain]

2 more died last night. The last of Bambi's litter. All gone. Goodbye Cassie & Cajo. RIP. Only 3 remaining small pups. One has pneumonia, but is still eating. The other 2 have coughs, but are doing OK, otherwise.

I hate this. It's like a conveyor belt. One dies & another goes under to become really sick. Horrible.