Distemper Oubreak

[November Rain]

One of the larger dogs has gone down with it really quickly. He's still eating, but not as much & really seems quite poorly. He's running a high temp as well. He's on half a 625mg tablet of Augmentin twice a day, vit B once a day and 250mg paracetamol twice a day to bring his temp down. These are all the dosages prescribed by the vet. Whilst checking him over this evening, I noticed the whites of his eyes & the inside of his ears were going slightly yellow. His gums are still a healthy pink, as is his tongue. Are these tablets affecting his liver? Is there anything better I can give him? Any suggestions would be welcomed. Sorry, he's about a year old & approx 20kg - quite a well fed, hefty dog.

Food:

Someone has recommended I give broccoli in the food & someone else has recommended I give as much high fat food as possible to the infected dogs. I'm quite happy to do both of these, as long as it won't do any harm. Has anyone heard of either of these? Will they/might they help? Can the high fat diet do any harm (particularly to the dog whose liver may have been affected)? Foods like pate & cream cheese were mentioned. Would dairy products increase mucous production & be harmful, or would it be OK? Thanks for any replies.

[elfe]

NO paracetamol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is deadly for dogs! will destroy the liver quickly. give iboprofen instead.

good luck

[elfe]

i would not give fatty food for sick dogs which eat medicine as their liver has to work through the medicine already, more i would give healthy light food like lean meat or fish with rice and soup.

[Nienke]

One of the larger dogs has gone down with it really quickly. He's still eating, but not as much & really seems quite poorly. He's running a high temp as well. He's on half a 625mg tablet of Augmentin twice a day, vit B once a day and 250mg paracetamol twice a day to bring his temp down. These are all the dosages prescribed by the vet. Whilst checking him over this evening, I noticed the whites of his eyes & the inside of his ears were going slightly yellow. His gums are still a healthy pink, as is his tongue. Are these tablets affecting his liver? Is there anything better I can give him? Any suggestions would be welcomed. Sorry, he's about a year old & approx 20kg - quite a well fed, hefty dog.

Food:

Someone has recommended I give broccoli in the food & someone else has recommended I give as much high fat food as possible to the infected dogs. I'm quite happy to do both of these, as long as it won't do any harm. Has anyone heard of either of these? Will they/might they help? Can the high fat diet do any harm (particularly to the dog whose liver may have been affected)? Foods like pate & cream cheese were mentioned. Would dairy products increase mucous production & be harmful, or would it be OK? Thanks for any replies.

I'm so sorry for the big dog. That the dog turns yellow can also be due to destruction of red blood cells, which can be caused by a virus. What's the color of his urine?

You might check the blood (RBC, WBC, platelets, liver, kidneys) and for tick fever (has similar symptoms to CDV). If both RBC and platelets are low, I'm more thinking in the direction of doxycycline.

In my experience it isn't easy what ingredients are the most needed by an ill individual. So I had years ago a 1-year old surviving CDV solely on whole wheat bread. Another dog with scary low red blood cells would only eat muscle meat and liver from buffalo or cow. And my liver patient finally started eating, even with gusto, after red beet was added to his diet. Go figure! During the CDV period I switched many dogs to a raw food diet, which they still wanted to eat while completely refusing dryfood. Once recovered, the dryfood eaters went back to their original diet, with which they had no problems at all.

With a high fat diet I would be careful. In certain diseases it's not recommened.

Nienke

[Nienke]

NO paracetamol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it is deadly for dogs! will destroy the liver quickly. give iboprofen instead.

good luck

Paracetamol can be given to dogs, if one knows the dose (I assume NR's vet knows). As paracetamol is so commonly taken by people, many think it's ok to give to the dogs as well. With this self medication over-doses easily occur.

Iboprofen isn't necessarily safer than paracetamol!

Nienke

[November Rain]

He has only had one dose of paracetamol (this evening) I was giving 250mg ibuprofen each time, but it didn't seem to be helping, so I spoke to the vet & the paracetamol & dosage was his directive.

Thanks both of you for your advice. I was a bit iffy about the high fat thing too. His urine is a dark yellow today, Nienke, again in line with jaundice. I'll take him to the vet tomorrow & get his blood tested. If I go early & there's no other clients, he's usually OK about seeing the distemper patients.

Thanks again

Edited August 8, 2007 by November Rain

[November Rain]

Just to let you know, Nienke, you were right. Titus (the dog's name) does have blood parasites & other blood disorders. The vet phoned me last night with the results of his blood test, so I'm going in to collect the new meds first thing this morning. I just hope they work quickly enough to bring his immune system up enough to fight the distemper (I'm still assuming he has that, also). From his size, he should have had a good chance to fight it off, but with the blood parasites as well, he's really low. The 3 small pups are going downhill, now, too. Tried them all (Titus & the babies) on raw diet last night & they showed far more interest than they have in other foods in the last day or so, but still not that good. Will keep persevering. Thank you for the advice.

[November Rain]

Titus was hospitalised today. The vet doesn't think he has distemper, but is quarantining him, just in case. He's on a plasma IV. He just got worse & worse, despite changing the meds & everything I was trying to do for him. He's severely jaundiced now and swollen from fluid retention. His lymph nodes at his throat are huge, not eating. The poor boy is a mess, so I'm really grateful they took him. If they hadn't been prepared to do anything, I think I'd have requested he be put to sleep, he was suffering so much. Fingers crossed that this does the trick.

The 3 pups are still with us. Still extremely poorly, but eating a little & holding on in there. They started to refuse the raw food, but will eat a little of their usual cooked food, so that's what I'm giving them, again.

[Nienke]

I'm so sorry for this. i've send you a PM

Nienke

[November Rain]

2 more pups went to Rainbow Bridge Park yesterday. Goodbye, Flower & Lassie.

Only 1 small pup left now (Lassie's brother, Laddie) & 2 slightly bigger ones, Shadow & Manao. Then we're onto pups of around 5 - 7 months. I'm hoping the conveyor belt stops somewhere (& soon) but I don't know where on the line I'll start seeing some success.

Titus is still alive & the vet says he's started eating again. He still looks dreadful though - jaundiced & swollen, & sounds worse, wheezing & coughing. I can't find his blood results, Nienke. My helper must have "tidied" them. They were low, but not through-the-floor low, but I can't recall the exact numbers. The vet had been giving him IV Augmentin, but I suggested Doxy (as per your suggestion) & he said that he could use a cocktail of both. No, I don't have that homeopathic remedy (I'd never heard of it). If you can get me some, I'd be very grateful, as I think the vet will give him back to me today. Apologies for replying to a pm publicly again, but it saves me time. He (Titus) was very happy to see me yesterday, waggy tails for the first time in days, which I'm choosing to see as a good sign.

[LookSaMoon]

Sorry to hear about your little pupies na kha and wish the best for the rest dogs

Soo Soo!

[Nienke]

Titus is still alive & the vet says he's started eating again. He still looks dreadful though - jaundiced & swollen, & sounds worse, wheezing & coughing. I can't find his blood results, Nienke. My helper must have "tidied" them. They were low, but not through-the-floor low, but I can't recall the exact numbers. The vet had been giving him IV Augmentin, but I suggested Doxy (as per your suggestion) & he said that he could use a cocktail of both. No, I don't have that homeopathic remedy (I'd never heard of it). If you can get me some, I'd be very grateful, as I think the vet will give him back to me today. Apologies for replying to a pm publicly again, but it saves me time. He (Titus) was very happy to see me yesterday, waggy tails for the first time in days, which I'm choosing to see as a good sign.

Sorry, about Tutsi. I'll be happy to send you the homeopatic remedy, but wonder if it still will help because he is already very sick for quite a while. You should have called me, as in emergency cases TV is rather slow.

Nienke

[November Rain]

Thanks, Nienke for your emails & pm. You'll be happy to know that Titus is miles better, but I'm going to email a contact in Canada to see if he can send me the remedy Dr Luc recommended. Thanks for your efforts!

OK, this is going to be a long, rambling one. Basically, I need to know from BambinA & those of you who have been through distemper outbreaks (elfe & Nienke or anyone else) what to expect now. I'm going to use the dogs' names, not to personalise them or to confuse anyone, but simply so I don't forget to ask about any of them. Also, I realise that Nienke & elfe both caught their outbreaks earlier than I did, so my dogs will be more advanced with the illness. And I know that the antibiotic therapy I'm giving does not fight the distemper, only any subsequent infections.

Right, the dogs fall into very different groups now, and what I really want to know is, what is the prospective future for each group & should I stop/change medication for any of them?

All of the small puppies (9 of them) have died. Laddie was the last to go, the day after my last post. Now we're left with 2 slightly older pups, and then some pups between 6 months & a year and a couple of adults.

Manao & Shadow These are about 3-5 months old. Manao has an intermittent fever & a cough, but she has been in exactly the same state for about a month now. No nasal discharge, tiny bit of eye discharge, some lethargy sometimes, still eating well. Shadow has bad eye & nose discharge & cough. He has started vomiting small amounts of food through coughing so hard. He has had diarrhoea (about 5 days ago) but his faeces are normal now. Shadow's lymph nodes are inflamed, Manao's don't seem to be. My feeling is that both of these will get worse. Anybody have any thoughts?

Mango She is about 6 months old. She has had bad nasal & eye discharge, which has dried up in the last 4 days (I haven't needed to clean eyes or nose in that time) She has a cough, but no fever. She's eating & playing well. Has she almost beat it, or is she heading for stage 2 in your experiences?

Dee & Sangsom Both young adults (age unknown, but I think under a year). Both were very sick with coughs, eye & nasal discharge etc. Both now seemingly clear. Coughs negligible & discharge gone. Both eating & playing well. Same question as for Mango ie prognosis now?

Jerry & Patch Both about 8 months. Jerry did have bad cough & eye discharge - gone now. Patch has some hardening of her pads & did have vomiting & diarrhoea (cleared up now). She didn't develop respiratory symptoms. Both seemingly healthy & normal at the moment, both eating really well.

Foofoo Adult poodle cross (approx 2 years). She had blood parasites (diagnosed by blood test) & a cough. Has been on doxy for that & I've been giving her Vit B, just in case. Cough is slightly better, but not gone. Gums & membranes are healthy colour now. Should I carry on with doxy, switch to augmentin or discontinue all medication?

Titus Adult male (1 year to 18 months approx). Doing much better. Swelling gone, jaundice virtually gone (just the slightest tinge left), eating very well, playing & barking again. Still lots of discharge from eyes (not much from nose, now) & productive cough. What chance has he of fighting the distemper if the blood parasites are gone? Normally healthy 20kg dog. As I told Nienke before, I'm going to try alternative therapy (Reiki) with him also, and also a homeopathic remedy she suggested, if I can get hold of it. He's on Augmentin 3 times daily, doxy once daily & Vit B & iron tabs

Bambi, Charlie & Tong All adult dogs with one vaccine previously given against distemper. None have developed any symptoms, despite being in the vicinity of the affected dogs & perhaps more susceptible (Bambi was the mother of 5 pups who died, Charlie & Tong are paraplegic). They have all been on medication (Augmentin & Vit B ) since diagnosis of the others, despite having no symptoms. Is it likely they'll develop distemper symptoms now? Should I carry on with meds or discontinue them?

Unless otherwise stated, all dogs are on Augmentin, as prescribed for their weights & Vit B daily.

I'd be really grateful for anyone's thoughts about what sort of prognosis the above dogs have & what I should be preparing for now. Thanks.

Edit - to change silly smiley that comes when you put B and ) together!

Edited August 18, 2007 by November Rain

[Nienke]

Thanks, Nienke for your emails & pm. You'll be happy to know that Titus is miles better, but I'm going to email a contact in Canada to see if he can send me the remedy Dr Luc recommended. Thanks for your efforts! Happy that Titus is doing so much better. I won't be surprised that it's the doxy that does its job, as IME that's the drug of choice where it concerns tick disease. The dog of my friend also started clearing up right after he received doxy, while it was most probably the distemper at the time that made that the parasite could multiply so fast, as the immunity couldn't fight it anymore.

N.B. a word of warning here though, DO NOT self-medicate with doxy, as it is very possible to over medicate or to encounter a dog that happens to be sensitive to the drug. I have seen quite severe doxy overdose cases, due to owners' misunderstandings. Luckily the dogs pulled through.

OK, this is going to be a long, rambling one. Basically, I need to know from BambinA & those of you who have been through distemper outbreaks (elfe & Nienke or anyone else) what to expect now. I'm going to use the dogs' names, not to personalise them or to confuse anyone, but simply so I don't forget to ask about any of them. Also, I realise that Nienke & elfe both caught their outbreaks earlier than I did, so my dogs will be more advanced with the illness. And I know that the antibiotic therapy I'm giving does not fight the distemper, only any subsequent infections.Concerning all the dogs I'll write you a private mail. I don't want to do this over a public forum as I'm inexperienced and could only do it with the help from abroad. Therefore, it's not advice that i give, but solely sharing my experience.

I do, though, strongly suggest to provide a whole fresh various raw diet to all the sick dogs and those that are in close contact with them. Especially now, the dogs need a extremely good diet. With many of the dogs that showed symptoms I switched to a raw diet, after recovery I switched them back to kibble with no problems at all. How you do this you can read in the article 'feeding your dog a natural diet' on my website (which I need to update, though), see profile.

Nienke

[elfe]

very sorry for the pups wishing them a good trip to a better world where they are healthy forever.

nr, i'm so sorry. but with so many and especially in a shelter as yours it is almost impossible to save all or most lives of infected or diseased very young puppies. it is so hard work especially if not treated at the very first light signs of illness. to be successful the pups have to stay inside the house and you have to be around them almost 24/7, even take them into your bedroom if possible. then applying medicine as eyedrops, cough relief etc every few hours, giving meds and vitamins/calcium in intervalls as they don't go together. cleaning all the times their output on the floor. watching out if they maybe vomit out the medicine again, giving fluids, treat diarrhea, comfort them etc etc. it is so hard work and if you have many and other many dogs as well it will eat yourself up. i been through all of that some years ago and thankfully 10 out of 13 survived and are here to this day and fit and healthy, one still died of the damage at age of about 5 months, no signs to be seen only that she was always exhausted easily. it is extremely hard work, saddening and of course all the insecurity of about what the pups really suffer from, you'll never know exactly and search around for info and help like mad. it can be distemper, it can be parvo, it could be leptospirosis or other viral diseases like tick fever which have similar symptoms or a mix of many of those. i could never go through that again and also lost 10kg in two weeks and almost no sleep for weeks. one or two once in a while was ok after that but more i just could not bear anymore at a time.

so my heart goes out for you and you have all my respect that you work on this, having these troubles on a constant level as you got a shelter and take in many pups. i wish you all the strength which is possible but please also think of yourself sometimes.

as for treatment of the remaining dogs. i would give all of them doxy for 21 days, i did so then also with older dogs which got some eye discharge then and i panicked. all went well. it could be also from tick disease, did your pups ever have ticks? it could well be the cause of all that and of course make other diseases worse and dogs unable to fight them.

can you check for bloodparasites? if so test some of your dogs and pups and if positive treat all of them.

manao&shadow: continue meds and try small amount of dexamethasone maybe it picks them up again.

mango: continue with treatment and good care (sorry it will be not necessary to say but still).

she will make it!

same for dee&sangsom.

jerry&patch: well done! keep them on vitamin b for all time and also c.

carry on with meds for all of them! at least for 25 days each!

just give them good care and food and vitamins etc and doxy. more i cannot advise, just my personal experience and knowledge. am sure the others have more advice.

good luck and take care.

edit: fresh food - best raw - is a must for sick pups as nienke said. i also found that sick puppies won't prosper much on kibble or tin food. the fresh meat will give them extra energy and good feeling! try raw beef or minced raw beef or chicken. usually the go crazy for it and it does them good also in psychological sense.

Edited August 18, 2007 by elfe

[November Rain]

Thanks both. Just a quick note on food - although not giving them raw, I'm not giving canned or kibble either. At the mo, they're getting cooked chicken & cooked vegetables, eggs, brown rice, some cooked offal, soybean oil etc. I have checked out your raw food article Nienke & also saved it to my computer. Particularly wondering about the fish, as my dogs all seem to like fish. Is fish suitable for all the remaining dogs I have now? Is it better to alternate (ie fish one day, chicken the next) or does that cause upset stomachs? Meaty bones would be the likes of chicken wings or chicken legs, right? How about oxtail, or does that come under recreational bones?

[Nienke]

Thanks both. Just a quick note on food - although not giving them raw, I'm not giving canned or kibble either. At the mo, they're getting cooked chicken & cooked vegetables, eggs, brown rice, some cooked offal, soybean oil etc. I have checked out your raw food article Nienke & also saved it to my computer. Particularly wondering about the fish, as my dogs all seem to like fish. Is fish suitable for all the remaining dogs I have now? Is it better to alternate (ie fish one day, chicken the next) or does that cause upset stomachs? Meaty bones would be the likes of chicken wings or chicken legs, right? How about oxtail, or does that come under recreational bones?

Haven't been able to answer the rest of your post, so you can still expect that part.

It is best/a must to feed a various diet, meaning that you need to alternate with different protein sources. Fish is a good source. Again best is to give small raw seafish, such as mackerel and sardines with all on and in it including the bones. My dogs rather starve than eat raw fish, so i feed them canned without the tomato sauce. Not the most optimum choice as most canned fish contain MSG and head and guts are taken out, but better than nothing. I feed 1 to 2 times a week fish mixed with blended veggies.

The soya oil I would change for coconut oil or, easier, grated coconut meat or kati from the market. Soya isn't as good as the industry has made us to believe. The coconut you can give every day, 2 tbsps morning evening for a big dog and one for a small dog.

Chicken wings, necks with head and legs are ok IF you feed other sources of meat as well. What I normally do is buy whole chicken with all still in it. This I cut in pieces. I give pork as well: pork rib and offal. Furhter beef, tripes (not the cleaned ones, but the dirty smelly ones) and I can choose from the left over on the local market the best parts out of it such as the intestines, testicles, milk glands, brains, pieces of heart, tongue,livr kidneys. Sometimes I give duck as another variation. Other animal protein sources are above my budget. Oh, and yoghurt, preferable goat yoghurt (although pretty costly), is also quite good. Oxtail I never give to the dogs. Can't recall anymore why exactly, but it has something to do with that it can cause harm. But how and what???? I certainly would not give it cooked.

Home-made cooked food is better than kibble (if done properly), raw is better as it is unprocessed. Heating changes the chemical composition of many nutrients, making it hard or impossible for the animal to take up in the body.

Keep a very good eye on the dogs concerning anemia symptoms, which can very well occur when the animal is sick for a long time.

It might be an option to add on a daily basis a multi vitamin/mineral tablet and high doses of Vitamin C (up to bowel tolerance) to the food during the period of high stress, and the illness certainly causes high stress.

Hope this helps,

Nienke

[elfe]

why not boil fish. my dogs would not eat much of the raw fish but make a horrible mess with it everywhere.

i boil mackerel (pla tu) and mix wiht some rice and eggs etc. also tuna (pla o), this you can also buy already grilled at markets, better bought raw and shortly boiled by yourself of course and cheaper.

the tuna has the advantage that it will be bigger solid parts to hand feed the dogs.

beef i only give the softer meaty chest bones raw as cheapest and my adult dogs chew them up completely. also give raw leg bones for chewing and entertainment.

offals and insides i usually boil with some rice, eggs, veggies etc so it makes more volume and i can avoid kibble. also give chicken liver raw per hand feeding.

[November Rain]

Just a quick update for anyone interested.

All dogs still OK. Shadow, Manao & Titus on raw diet. Shadow & Manao love it, Titus likes the fish (boiled briefly with veggies, as per elfe's suggestion), but has to be hand fed chicken/pork etc. All three have improved vastly. Titus has also had a psychic healing session which he loved & whether it's that, the raw diet, meds or a combination, he is so much better, I can't believe it.

All other dogs now have no symptoms at all, or their symptoms are reduced. Not one has got worse (touch wood!) I'm beginning to feel more positive about this. Thanks to everyone who has helped so much, particularly Nienke.

[draggons]

Glad to here that the dogs are getting over it. Been following this since it started but kept out of it as I'd nothing constructive to add. Think you do a hel_l of a good job with all the dogs.

Draggons

PS Think a mate of mine was your neighbour a couple of years ago, Kevin?

[November Rain]

Glad to here that the dogs are getting over it. Been following this since it started but kept out of it as I'd nothing constructive to add. Think you do a hel_l of a good job with all the dogs.

Draggons

PS Think a mate of mine was your neighbour a couple of years ago, Kevin?

Thanks, draggons

Yeah, how is Kevin? Haven't seen him for ages. Had a few boozy nights on his porch, drinking his beer when we were neighbours. Good guy. Give him & his family my love when you see him.

[draggons]

The old git's doing ok, living up in the wilds of Chaing Rai. known him for 25years+, he was my best man first time round.

[November Rain]

Hopefully this will be my last update on this subject. Earlier this week (as I mentioned briefly on another thread), most of the affected dogs got the "all clear" from the vet. Only 3 dogs still have any symptoms - Shadow, Manao & Titus - and all 3 are vastly improved. I have no reason to believe they won't recover fully too (touch wood!!)

9 pups died & one adult (Lang Thom, the dog who brought it in)

15 dogs made it. 12 recovered fully & the other 3 I have very high hopes for.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart to elfe, Bambi & Nienke (esp Nienke). Without your help, ladies, I am sure the death toll would have been much higher. You don't know how grateful I am for all of your help & advice. And, for ThaiVisa, otherwise I wouldn't have "known" any of you or be able to enlist your help. 3 cheers for all of you.

Edit - Nienke & Onzestan - received your pm's, thank you. Still quite busy, but will answer you soon.

Edited September 7, 2007 by November Rain

[elfe]

nr - you're very welcome. happy to read that quite a few doggies made it and good luck to the 3 still a bit struggling

want to say a big thanks to nienke, too. always up for help and advice with such big heart for the animals

Edited September 7, 2007 by elfe

[Nienke]

The fact that 15 dogs fully recovered and the other three are on close to full recovery is for me rewarding enough.

Can you believe that I got a complete neglected Golden in (rescued by my pork delivery lady) that's completely yellow? He has severe tick fever, similar to Titus. He's on doxy, liver support and vitamin/mineral pills, liver diet and, naturally, a homeopathic remedy. I keep my fingers crossed that he'll pull through.

The dog with the huge liver problem as a result of the vaccinosis is home, very happy playfull and pretty much recovered. The happiness on the owner's face to see her most beloved dog back alive and kicking was also a big reward.

Nienke

[elfe]

hi nienke, good news and sad news...

be careful with doxy with dogs with liver problem. had one dog die last year, it was just to much for the liver, was still a puppy though and not quite sure of the actual disease whiched caused all its illness...

good luck for goldie too!!!

[Nienke]

be careful with doxy with dogs with liver problem.

Yep, I'm aware of the danger. It even turned out that the vet who treated this dog gave too high of a dose, which needed to be given once a day The dog came in when i was in Holland. I came back last Monday at noon and could go immediately to the vet with Bossy, the St. Bernard that developed next to her heart problems epileptic attacks. (my workers did a fantastic job, though, while I was away!!!) I took the med's of the golden with me and consulted him about the problems and the amount of med's he was supposed to take. The vet told me, what I already suspected, to lower the dose and spread it over twice a day.

Bossy is doing a lot better now, and the golden is hanging in there. For Bossy I got enormous help from some very knowledgeable people through a Dutch epilepsy forum with one vet and one Dutch veterinary neurologist who has animal emergency hospitals in the States as members. Internet brings the world in your living room, or office in my case.

Nienke

[November Rain]

Good luck with Bossy & the golden, Nienke. I'm sure they'll pull through with your expert care.