Australian Aged Pension - Income Taxes in Thailand

[Pattaya57]

7 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Please dont confuse the Age Pension with a 'Pension payment' which is an option that is regularly paid by a Super Fund to someone that has reached the qualification age. 

I have not taken that option, even though it would mean that my Super Fund earnings would not be taxed.

 

I did not do that option because any money received under that 'pension' is taxable income, and I would have to pay tax on it. So I kept my Super Fund in 'accumulation phase' and the Fund pays tax on the earnings, but I can withdraw money as and when needed, and it is tax free.  

Sorry but the two sentences in bold contradict each other? You said you could take your super pension as it's tax free but havent taken it because it would be taxed?

 

Most Super pensions are tax free once you are 60 and as they are tax free they do not form part of taxable income and are not included in a tax return. You could be missing out on some nice tax free income?

 

Note: The reason I say most is that I have an old fixed benefit Defence/Commonwealth Super which has 43% of pension tax free, while the other 57% forms part of my taxable income like the aged pension would.  

 

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, rhodie said:

Guys, please stop feeding the troll. Just ignore his posts. It's the only way he might be starved of the oxygen he so desperately needs.

You can personally attack all you like, but perhaps you can post on what basis you draw your conclusions.

 

I'll simplify it.

 

1)  Is the aged pension deemed an income at law.  Is your answer yes or no?  

 

2)  Is the aged pension taxable?  Is your answer yes or no? 

 

3)  Have you been outside of Australia (living in Thailand) for several years?  Is your answer yes or no?

 

4)  If you have been living in Thailand for years, do you think you are a non resident for tax purposes?  Is your answer yes or no? 

 

5)  Is there a tax free threshold in the non resident tax brackets?  Is your answer yes or no? 

 

I know you would like to think that receiving your pension in Thailand will be EXACTLY the same as receiving your pension as if you were living in Australia, where there is a tax free threshold and some concessions.  When the proposed changes are passed, can you guarantee the pension you receive living in Thailand will be the same as if you were living in Australia, some supplements aside?  Is your answer yes or no?

 

The difference in tax law between resident and non resident is considerable.  I would really like to know why you think your taxable income (pension) will be treated by the Australian government the same as if you are living in Australia, when you are living in Thailand?   

 

Now, I think we are past "that's just for guys like Paul Hogan" and "I still have a Medicare Card so I am a resident."  Can you post why you think your taxable income (pension) will be treated the same as a tax resident, when you are clearly a non resident for taxation purposes? 

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

It's all part of your taxable income. If you don't reach the threshold you are not taxed - be it net capital gain, pension, or something else. If it's over you get taxed. You seem to be suggesting that the age pension is treated differently but it's not - it is part of income and it is taxed as part of total income if you reach the the threshold to pay tax. 

This is not to suggest that the guys in Thailand long term should alter what they are doing - only that the pension is taxable same as other sorts of income. 

Exactly, but there is no tax free threshold for non residents for tax purposes.  It 30% from $0. 

 

The game changes with your geographic location. 

[KhunHeineken]

15 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

To clarify a bit further - the statement that -   'The ATO does not tax age pension payments - ever - if you can prove that they do, then put up or shut up' - is clearly wrong. My example of a combined income of $70000  is to show you are taxed on the $70,000  - offsets may apply as they do at the lower end meaning you may pay no tax - but the age pension is taxable and taxed in the same way as the capital gain. 

 

You are correct. 

 

The aged pension is included in the "mix" of whatever, from wherever, you have some other income.  It does not stand outside of other income earned. 

 

The pension goes towards what tax bracket you are in. 

 

Now, as a non resident for tax purposes, tax is paid at 30% from $0.

 

If someone can post a link to any "offsets" for anything, including an aged pension, for non residents, I would be happy to read it, and no, it's not the DTA between Australia and Thailand.   

[rhodie]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You can personally attack all you like

Amazing. I didn't mention any name and yet!

[KhunHeineken]

15 hours ago, rhodie said:

Can you show an example of someone who only gets the pension, which is clearly above the tax threshold, being taxed? I have never heard of it. 

Are they in Australia or overseas?  Different rates.  The ability to "collect" or "withhold" will change in the near future.

 

15 hours ago, rhodie said:

Are you implying that if someone on the full pension received additional income of $100 in interest they would be taxed on the combined earnings of the pension plus the interest? So, about $3000 in tax?

They can avail themselves of the tax free threshold, something that non residents for tax purposes can not. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

13 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

 

To hopefully clarify the above, according to the ATO the aged pension is taxable income, however they provide a "Seniors and Pensioners tax offset" (SAPTO) of $2230 for a single. This means a single pensioner can have a taxable income of $32,279 without having to pay any tax (after tax free threshold + $2230 tax rebated)

 

If a tax resident of Australia, right? 

 

What if they are a non resident for taxation purposes?

 

Do you think it's EXACTLY the same?

[KhunHeineken]

13 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

The pension is taxable but there is the tax free threshold for residents and offsets such as the Seniors and Pensioners tax offset that apply. Often meaning no tax with or without the extra 100 of interest. 

To work out tax you decide if you are a resident - take your income - work out tax - apply tax offsets  - and that's your tax payable.  I used a higher income example to show that a pension is taxable and can have tax on it - to clarify the other posters comments which I felt were not correct as written. 

Note too for non residents interest would normally have withholding taken from it as has been discussed. 

Over the course of many months, many threads, and many posts, and much debate, non resident pensions either believe, need to believe, or want to believe, or have to believe, their pension, which is an income, and taxable, will be treated in the EXACT same way as it would be as if they were living in Australia, yet, they are non residents for taxation purposes, and living full time in Thailand. 

 

When asked on what basis they draw their conclusions that their income, being the pension, will be treated the same way as a pensioner living in Australia, all you get is personal attacks.  No links. No quotes.  No youtube.  Nothing. 

 

Indeed, some confused "portability" with being "tax free pension" as if they were residing inside Australia. 

 

"The Paul Hogan Syndrome." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Amazing. I didn't mention any name and yet!

Any content to contribute????

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

You don't add $2230 SAPTO to $18,200 tax free threshold. $2230 is a tax rebate for tax due, whereby it takes about $14,000 income above threshold to get $2230 tax due (at new 16% rate)

 

Using your figures of $29,021 Pension - $18,200 tax free = $10,821 taxable @ 16% = $1731 tax due. As this is less than the $2230 SAPTO rebate, no tax to pay

 

Once again, reliant on whether one is a resident or non resident for taxation purposes. 

[Pattaya57]

On 8/15/2024 at 10:16 PM, rhodie said:

Guys, please stop feeding the troll. Just ignore his posts. It's the only way he might be starved of the oxygen he so desperately needs.

I find the "ignore function" a perfect way to not read a Troll's posts, especially when it's just the same spiel over and over in every thread they post....

 

[KhunHeineken]

31 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

I find the "ignore function" a perfect way to not read a Troll's posts, especially when it's just the same spiel over and over in every thread they post....

 

Yet, you refuse to address the basics that the aged pension is deemed an income.  The aged pension is taxable.  There is no tax free threshold in the non resident tax brackets.  The first non resident tax bracket is 30% from $0.  You are a non resident for taxation purposes because you are living in Thailand. 

 

Add all of these together, and it's better to call me a troll than address the real taxation issue that will soon face Aussie expat pensions.  

 

Ignorance is bliss. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

You don't add $2230 SAPTO to $18,200 tax free threshold. $2230 is a tax rebate for tax due, whereby it takes about $14,000 income above threshold to get $2230 tax due (at new 16% rate)

 

Using your figures of $29,021 Pension - $18,200 tax free = $10,821 taxable @ 16% = $1731 tax due. As this is less than the $2230 SAPTO rebate, no tax to pay

 

Go to this website if you want to work out if you have to lodge a tax return.

Guess what??  If you are only getting the Pension you do not !!

Not because of SAPTO - because of Age Pension.

One last time - SAPTO is for income earned ABOVE the Pension.

I give up - why do I bother - 20 years dealing with ATO - what do I know.

Work out if you need to lodge a tax return | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

[TroubleandGrumpy]

15 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

Sorry but the two sentences in bold contradict each other? You said you could take your super pension as it's tax free but havent taken it because it would be taxed?

 

Most Super pensions are tax free once you are 60 and as they are tax free they do not form part of taxable income and are not included in a tax return. You could be missing out on some nice tax free income?

 

Note: The reason I say most is that I have an old fixed benefit Defence/Commonwealth Super which has 43% of pension tax free, while the other 57% forms part of my taxable income like the aged pension would.  

 

 

Money in Super is in two 'types' - they all start as Accumulation.

Accumulation - working and contributing (pre and post tax) etc etc etc.

Retirement - no longer working, and not contributing etc etc etc.

Earnings/interest etc in an Accumulation account is taxed at 15%.

Retirement is not - compulsory to switch to that type/phase when 75 - optional before.

 

Tax on super benefits | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

 

I am staying in Accumulation phase because once in the Retirement phase 'pension payment' withdrawals are counted as taxable income. Those are monthly regular payments - just like the Age Pension.  The downside the Govt is that they miss out on taxes on earnings, the upside is that they get to include Super's pension payments as taxable income in your tax returns. It is 'income' and can affect your age pension (if over the limit) and can also affect you with other monies received (like inheritances) .

 

The old Defence/Commonwealth Super Fund is taxed differently from others because it has minimal/nil taxes applied to the Fund earnings in Accumulation phase - only to certain contributions. All very complicated and I dont know all of it because I dont have that type of Super. 

[Captain Flack]

At the request of the OP I have locked this topic to any further comments, but existing comments will remain for reference.