6 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Right now, I think the wait to apply for citizenship in the USA is five years.

By "true democracy," I just mean allowing all citizens to vote (with a minimum age qualification and not felons in prison). So, in that sense, all citizens are "equal." Under the USA's capitalistic economic system, no, they certainly are not "equal." To be truly equal, you'd have to go clear to a communistic economy. Even in socialism, not everyone is "equal" in the sense that they all share everything equally.

Anyway, I think once an immigrant has qualified to become a citizen, he/she should be eligible to register to vote—even former pig farmers from Nicaragua. 

 

I have real doubts if democracy works on a mass scale, with massive vested interest groups. This applies not just to immigrants, but also to the elderly for instance. In many countries the older voters have realised their importance and succeeded in voting into power governments that focus on providing benefits for the very elderly at the expense of the present and younger generations.

 

Each vested interest group will pursue its self interest. 

 

However, it seems to me that true democracy required a very serious common bond, like in Athens when you had to be eligible for military service, had to have property to get office, those who could vote shared those characteristics.

 

However, if a Nicaraguan pig farmer gets to vote he will have nothing in common with an American IT worker in terms of education, property ownership and other aspects.

 

I wonder if democracy is nearing the end of its usefulness, and if that is why we are seeing the morphing into an oligarchy.

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Cameroni

1 minute ago, proton said:

He's right, the way the Dems have packed swing states with immigrants who will vote for them is in danger of creating a one party state in the USA where they are unlikely ever to lose an election.

Maybe the Republicans could wind back their anti immigrant rhetoric, simply not stoking hatred against legal Haitian immigrants would be a start.

 

But then that might lose them the redneck vote.

 

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Do you have evidence of any significant numbers of non citizens voting?

So you think there is nothing wrong with that? Why do I need a passport to fly, an ID at hotel, a drivers license for driving, an ID for pharmacy etc and you think we shouldn't need it to vote huh. This is how you lose your county.

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well tough, that’s how democracy works.

 

 

You're not making me happy Chompers. I'm not happy with that at all. And if I'm not happy, you know what happens, when people are not happy with their democratic system? Strange people come to power and it dies.

 

It's vital that I'm happy with this system. Millions of people are not happy with this kind of democracy, and this attitude of "feck you".

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I have real doubts if democracy works on a mass scale, with massive vested interest groups. This applies not just to immigrants, but also to the elderly for instance. In many countries the older voters have realised their importance and succeeded in voting into power governments that focus on providing benefits for the very elderly at the expense of the present and younger generations.

 

Each vested interest group will pursue its self interest. 

 

However, it seems to me that true democracy required a very serious common bond, like in Athens when you had to be eligible for military service, had to have property to get office, those who could vote shared those characteristics.

 

However, if a Nicaraguan pig farmer gets to vote he will have nothing in common with an American IT worker in terms of education, property ownership and other aspects.

 

I wonder if democracy is nearing the end of its usefulness, and if that is why we are seeing the morphing into an oligarchy.

I do see the USA morphing into an oligarch - a plutocracy. On that, we agree. I myself am a far-left liberal and advocate some form of democratic socialism, removing the capitalistic portions of our economy. But I know that will not happen in my lifetime, especially mine since I am now 78 years old. 

Oh well, we'll all have to do our best with what we've got and try to make whatever changes we feel are important to support the society in which we want to live. 

Trump, IF he wins is going to be a dictator ,and will implement

2025  ,and anyone wanting to be in his government ,will have to

swear allegiance to him ,and him alone ,he wants to be just like

his hero's ,Xi ,Putin ,Kim ,Hitler and Orban , he is a dangerous narcissist.

and @rsehole .

 

regards Worgeordie

 

 

10 minutes ago, 300sd said:

So you think there is nothing wrong with that? Why do I need a passport to fly, an ID at hotel, a drivers license for driving, an ID for pharmacy etc and you think we shouldn't need it to vote huh. This is how you lose your county.

Non citizens voting is a federal crime.

 

Please provide evidence of how many non citizens have voted.

8 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I do see the USA morphing into an oligarch - a plutocracy. On that, we agree. I myself am a far-left liberal and advocate some form of democratic socialism, removing the capitalistic portions of our economy. But I know that will not happen in my lifetime, especially mine since I am now 78 years old. 

Oh well, we'll all have to do our best with what we've got and try to make whatever changes we feel are important to support the society in which we want to live. 

 

 

Wow, I have to say I am full of respect that even after all the events that have happened your belief in socialism has not wavered. That is some hardcore ideological staying power in the face of adversity.

 

But I agree, we have to work in the system, the thing is if people change the sytem and rig it in their favour, some people will not want to play anymore. Really bad things can happen then. 

Musk is a moronic bull<deleted>ter

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Non citizens voting is a federal crime.

 

Please provide evidence of how many non citizens have voted.

Please provide your answer to my reply!

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Two technological innovations that were developed by others and which Musk bought into then actively attempted to claim ‘founder status’.

So definitely of the narcissistic ego kind. 

If you look at a list of Musk's accomplishments, one noticeable thing about their is they tend to be two categories. One category is the first for a private citizen and the second is the first for mankind. Then again I guess you have been top busy providing communications desperately needed in Ukraine and for the hurricane relief efforts and implanting chips that interface directly into the brain to help quadriplegics. 

 

I guesss that doesnt match up to being an assistant foot ball coach or pretending to work at McDonaalds for a summer. In your world. Like Musk or not belittling his massive list of accomplishments makes a person look ignorant at best and moronic and hateful at the other end.

 

Let me know the next time they ask you to rescue astronauts stranded in space, kiddo.

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Cryingdick

3 hours ago, 300sd said:

So you think there is nothing wrong with that? Why do I need a passport to fly, an ID at hotel, a drivers license for driving, an ID for pharmacy etc and you think we shouldn't need it to vote huh. This is how you lose your county.

You need to provide evidence of non citizens voting.

 

Then you can move onto the problem of voter ID requirements disenfranchising citizens.

 

https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/voter-id

Edited October 2, 20241 yr by Chomper Higgot

30 minutes ago, Cryingdick said:

If you look at a list of Musk's accomplishments, one noticeable thing about their is they tend to be two categories. One category is the first for a private citizen and the second is the first for mankind. Then again I guess you have been top busy providing communications desperately needed in Ukraine and for the hurricane relief efforts and implanting chips that interface directly into the brain to help quadriplegics. 

 

I guesss that doesnt match up to being an assistant foot ball coach or pretending to work at McDonaalds for a summer. In your world. Like Musk or not belittling his massive list of accomplishments makes a person look ignorant at best and moronic and hateful at the other end.

 

Let me know the next time they ask you to rescue astronauts stranded in space, kiddo.

Musk’s achievements comprise buying into other people’s innovations and claiming them as his own.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-wasnt-original-founder-130014807.html

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2017/04/04/152788/meet-the-guys-who-sold-neuralink-to-elon-musk-without-even-realizing-it/

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

You're not making me happy Chompers. I'm not happy with that at all. And if I'm not happy, you know what happens, when people are not happy with their democratic system? Strange people come to power and it dies.

 

It's vital that I'm happy with this system. Millions of people are not happy with this kind of democracy, and this attitude of "feck you".

Forgive me for upsetting you, I didn’t realize you had a vote in this forthcoming election.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You need to provide evidence of non citizens voting.

 

Then you can move onto the problem of voter ID requirements disenfranchising citizens.

 

https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/voter-id

No, I do not. You need to understand why voting without a proper ID is being allowed in some states. If you think that is OK then you need to understand how it may affect your country, which seems to be tearing itself apart. Your link means nothing, same as main stream news! I think I'm done here.

2 minutes ago, 300sd said:

No, I do not. You need to understand why voting without a proper ID is being allowed in some states. If you think that is OK then you need to understand how it may affect your country, which seems to be tearing itself apart. Your link means nothing, same as main stream news! I think I'm done here.

You can’t demonstrate that non citizens are voting (which in any case is a federal crime) while in the other hand  there is evidence that voter ID disenfranchises millions of citizens.

 

Yet here you are claiming the non citizens voting who you can’t demonstrate are a risk to the nation while you ignore the real damage of millions of citizens being disenfranchised.

 

And you tell me I need to understand.

 

Righty-o!

He sounds like he's lost the plot about comparable to the extent to which Trump has lost the plot. They both seem to have degenerated into their own unique type of insanity. 

 

The fact that he supports Trump tells you everything you need to know about Trump's economic policies and how favorable they're going to be to huge corporations. It's all about the money. 

15 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

If you look at a list of Musk's accomplishments, one noticeable thing about their is they tend to be two categories. One category is the first for a private citizen and the second is the first for mankind. Then again I guess you have been top busy providing communications desperately needed in Ukraine and for the hurricane relief efforts and implanting chips that interface directly into the brain to help quadriplegics. 

 

I guesss that doesnt match up to being an assistant foot ball coach or pretending to work at McDonaalds for a summer. In your world. Like Musk or not belittling his massive list of accomplishments makes a person look ignorant at best and moronic and hateful at the other end.

 

Let me know the next time they ask you to rescue astronauts stranded in space, kiddo.

Firtstly, Elon isn't the only person to have made some major contributions to humanity but he is one of the very few who feels the need to continually spread debunked conspiracy theories (the point of this whole post).

 

Whether it was loudly declaring that children are immune from catching Covid or George Soros  “wants to erode the very fabric of civilization” and “hates humanity.” or that Jews have promoted “dialectical hatred against whites” and deliberately facilitated mass migration into the U.S. by “minorities” or when he allows a number of accounts that flood X (Twitter) with misinformation and racist tropes which in turn he boosts visibility with a one-word reply (“Concerning,” “Crazy,” “Evil”) or just punctuation (“!!”) to what we have here which is a white supremacist trope of a “Great Replacement' which has widely been debunked.

 

His genius in science doesn't also give him a no consequence free pass to spread antisemetic, anti-immigration, anti-vacine propaganda that in turn influences so many people who like yourself, hold him in such high regard.

 

In the immortal words of Spiderman, 'with great power comes great responsibility', something ol' Elon seems to not give a cr@p about. 

 

 

On 10/2/2024 at 12:48 PM, Cameroni said:

The Democrats ARE trying to mold the system in their favour. Only Trump can stop it.

Unlike the "Can't appoint a Supreme in an election year", "should be the people's choice", then appoint one 2 days before being kicked out of office, SCOTUS stacking, federal judgeship stacking, Twitler? THAT is system-stacking.

 

22 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Maybe the Republicans could wind back their anti immigrant rhetoric

 

Why would they do that, given all the problems it is causing to ordinary Americans?

26 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Why would they do that, given all the problems it is causing to ordinary Americans?

Except it’s not.

 

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Except it’s not.

 

 

Not in your magical world.

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Not in your magical world.

Not in the world of Americans picking up cheap agricultural produce at the super market, getting their yard work done, picking up their laundry, getting their car detailed, consuming any of the vast number of goods and services that Immigrants work to provide at a cost Americans want to pay.

 

 

Edited October 3, 20241 yr by Chomper Higgot

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Not in the world of Americans picking up cheap agricultural produce at the super market, getting their yard work done, picking up their laundry, getting their car detailed, consuming any of the vast number of goods and services that Immigrants work to provide at a cost Americans want to pay.

 

 

 

In other words, providing cheap labour for multinationals and simultaneously lowering wages for ordinary working class Americans.

 

All while increasing the pressure on housing, schooling and public services. 

Elon still sulking after he wasn't invited by Biden to the 2021 EV Summit. Man child like TRump that need their ego to be stroked. Since then, he has been funding right-wing organisations like Building America's Future who has been consistently attacking Biden and undermining black support for him. That he is singing praises for Trump is not surprising. His endorsement may backfire as it give Kamala/Waltz opportunity to attack their anti-worker stances and 2 self-obsessed billionaires is not a good look for the ordinary people. 

6 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Firtstly, Elon isn't the only person to have made some major contributions to humanity but he is one of the very few who feels the need to continually spread debunked conspiracy theories (the point of this whole post).

 

Whether it was loudly declaring that children are immune from catching Covid or George Soros  “wants to erode the very fabric of civilization” and “hates humanity.” or that Jews have promoted “dialectical hatred against whites” and deliberately facilitated mass migration into the U.S. by “minorities” or when he allows a number of accounts that flood X (Twitter) with misinformation and racist tropes which in turn he boosts visibility with a one-word reply (“Concerning,” “Crazy,” “Evil”) or just punctuation (“!!”) to what we have here which is a white supremacist trope of a “Great Replacement' which has widely been debunked.

 

His genius in science doesn't also give him a no consequence free pass to spread antisemetic, anti-immigration, anti-vacine propaganda that in turn influences so many people who like yourself, hold him in such high regard.

 

In the immortal words of Spiderman, 'with great power comes great responsibility', something ol' Elon seems to not give a cr@p about. 

 

 

Where is evidence of genius?  He is a looney with a lot of money, that is all.

55 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

In other words, providing cheap labour for multinationals and simultaneously lowering wages for ordinary working class Americans.

 

All while increasing the pressure on housing, schooling and public services. 

If ordinary working class Americans are competing against immigrants from South America they have more problems than immigrants.

Multinational farms, multinational yards, multinational laundries, multinational car detailers.

 

Get up early in any town or city across America and you’ll see immigrants on their way to work, often hours before most folk start their jobs.

 

 

On 10/2/2024 at 3:24 PM, WDSmart said:

If he/she has the qualifications and passes the tests to become a US citizen, is one, and has registered to vote, then of course I am. Why wouldn't I be?

And in anticipation of your response, how long do you think a citizen should have to be a citizen before he/she should be allowed to vote? Or what other qualifications do you think he/she should have?

Smart answer,lets see if there is a response.

On 10/2/2024 at 5:06 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Non citizens voting is a federal crime.

 

Please provide evidence of how many non citizens have voted.

As opposed to genuine zits that never vote  but complain  after !

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Why would they do that, given all the problems it is causing to ordinary Americans?

Can you say how how it is causing problems to you personally?