Thailand's Expats Urged to Register with TRD for Tax, Says Expert

[Raindancer]

14 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

What the rules state and what appears to be common practise are two different things. 

 

The rules state that a tax resident who receives in excess of 60k baht in assessable income, must file a tax return, the amount increases to 120k if the income is via employment and increases again to 220k if married..

 

There is no concrete evidence that TRD levies a fine of 2k baht for not filing a return, when they were supposed to, some take this to be accepted practice that TRD doesn't want a bunch of null returns clogging up their system. Some members will tell us that no AN/TVF member has ever reported being fined for not filing a return and this may or may not be correct. If you think that AN membership is representative of the entire foreigner community in Thailand, this may be a safe bet, if it is not, caution is needed.

 

You must decide which road you want to go down.

 

 

Thank you.   I was reading your earlier post, whereby you advised/ said to a member, that he was within the threshold of his TEDA and therefore did not need to file a tax return.

 

That is why I sought clarification.  I'm quite happy to complete a TIN if legally required to do so, but not file a tax return if that is not required as I am within TEDA and also DTA.

Edited Saturday at 12:32 AM by Raindancer

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Assessable income above the  thresholds a tax return should be filed. The TEDA's will determine whether an individual has any tax to pay.

 

Income excluded from Thai Tax via a DTA is not assessable income and there is no need to get a TIN or file a tax return. Hard copies of where this income comes from and any tax paid should be kept in case it is needed at some point in the future.

 

You only require a TIN if you are going to file a tax return

Thank you.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Thank you.   I was reading your earlier post, whereby you advised/ said to a member, that he was within the threshold of his TEDA and therefore did not need to file a tax return.

 

That is why I sought clarification.  I'm quite happy to complete a TIN if legally required to do so, but not file a tax return if that is not required as I am within TEDA.

I think/hope what I wrote was that it was his decision whether to file or not if he was within his TEDA, that's my standard answer these days.

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I think/hope what I wrote was that it was his decision whether to file or not if he was within his TEDA, that's my standard answer these days.

Understood.   Thank you.

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

 

 

You only require a TIN if you are going to file a tax return

Technically, the rules state that a tax resident must obtain a TIN, within 60 days of reaching the threshold of 60k baht. 

[Raindancer]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Technically, the rules state that a tax resident must obtain a TIN, within 60 days of reaching the threshold of 60k baht. 

@chiang mai and @The Cyclist

Thank you both for your replies.   I will wait out until TRD confirm the legal requirements regarding TIN and filing a tax return for this years foreign remitted income.

 

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Technically, the rules state that a tax resident must obtain a TIN, within 60 days of reaching the threshold of 60k baht. 

 

If they have " Assessable income "

 

If they do not have " Assessable income " there is no need to aquire a TIN or file a tax return.

 

Income that is excluded from Thai taxation by way of a DTA is not " Assessable income "

 

" Assessable income " means income that may be subject to Thai tax should certain thresholds be met and and any relevant TEDA's have been applied.

[Raindancer]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If they have " Assessable income "

 

If they do not have " Assessable income " there is no need to aquire a TIN or file a tax return.

 

Income that is excluded from Thai taxation by way of a DTA is not " Assessable income "

 

" Assessable income " means income that may be subject to Thai tax should certain thresholds be met and and any relevant TEDA's have been applied.

That's how I read it too.

 

I'm happy either way.  I have no tax to pay.   But it's easier to swim with the stream than try swimming upstream here in Thailand.😀

 

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If they have " Assessable income "

 

If they do not have " Assessable income " there is no need to aquire a TIN or file a tax return.

 

Income that is excluded from Thai taxation by way of a DTA is not " Assessable income "

 

" Assessable income " means income that may be subject to Thai tax should certain thresholds be met and and any relevant TEDA's have been applied.

I'm not too sure about that, at least I am not certain. I THINK, assessable income means non-exempt/not excluded income that is applied to the tax calculation process, in order to be assessed, after which TEDA is applied and then the 150k zero rated band. But the last thing I want to do right now is get caught up in a debate about that, others must decide if they want to and which way they want to go.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm not too sure about that, at least I am not certain. I THINK, assessable income means non-exempt/not excluded income that is applied to the tax calculation process, in order to be assessed, after which TEDA is applied and then the 150k zero rated band. But the last thing I want to do right now is get caught up in a debate about that, others must decide if they want to and which way they want to go.

 

I have absolutely no intentions of going round the houses on this as their are too many variables.

 

" Assessable income " means income that should be reported in a tax filing and Thai tax may have to be paid. Which will be very individual specific.

 

" Non Assessable income " is income that is excluded from Thai taxation via a DTA and no TIN or tax filing is required.

 

Yes, you are correct. In that it is up to individuals to decide whether the income they remit is " Assessable " or comes under " Not taxable in Thailand " and the only way they will determine that is by reading the DTA applicable to the individual.

 

Personally, I have simplified things by only remitting my UK Gov Pension ( of which there are many different types ) in 2024.

 

Bank print-out in Jan 2025, attach P60 and Statement of future payments, stick in an A4 envelope and file in a drawer, should it be needed at some time in the future.

 

The transfer code attached to the monthly remittance should be enough to tell the BOT, the RD and anyone else interested, exactly what, and where the remittance comes from.

[chiang mai]

A further ten cents on this:

 

I THINK, the separation of excluded, exempt and disregarded funds, from tax assessable funds, is the assessment process  that determines assessable income.

 

I further THINK that the deduction of TEDA and the zero rated band, is part of the tax calculation process, that determines taxable income and tax due.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

A further ten cents on this:

 

I THINK, the separation of excluded, exempt and disregarded funds, from tax assessable funds, is the assessment process  that determines assessable income.

 

You could be correct, but here is another 10 cents worth.

 

International agreements ( DTA's ) trump Thai domestic tax policy / Laws ( Otherwise why bother having them )

 

Income that is exluded, exempt or disregarded by a DTA does not fall under the ' Revenue Code ' that makes up Thai domestic tax policy / Law, therefore the phrase " Assessable Income " in this context is meaningless.

 

The term " Assessable Income " will certainly apply to any other income strains remitted to Thailand that are not covered by a DTA exemption, is specifically  excluded or otherwise disregarded. In which case the Thai Revenue Code applies.

 

As a way of example

 

The UK State Pension is not covered by an exemption or exclusion. It is therefore " Assessable Income " under the Revenue Code. It should therefore be declared on a tax return, TEDA's made, and tax paid ( if any is due ) on what is left after.

 

Income remitted from abroad into Thailand

 

1. DTA applies first

 

2. Revenue Code applies second.

 

Caveat

 

This may change between today and the 31 December should a further announcement be made by the powers that be that is specific to income that is cirrently detailed in DTA's as being exempt, excluded or otherwise disregarded for Thai tax purposes.

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You could be correct, but here is another 10 cents worth.

 

International agreements ( DTA's ) trump Thai domestic tax policy / Laws ( Otherwise why bother having them )

 

Income that is exluded, exempt or disregarded by a DTA does not fall under the ' Revenue Code ' that makes up Thai domestic tax policy / Law, therefore the phrase " Assessable Income " in this context is meaningless.

 

The term " Assessable Income " will certainly apply to any other income strains remitted to Thailand that are not covered by a DTA exemption, is specifically  excluded or otherwise disregarded. In which case the Thai Revenue Code applies.

 

As a way of example

 

The UK State Pension is not covered by an exemption or exclusion. It is therefore " Assessable Income " under the Revenue Code. It should therefore be declared on a tax return, TEDA's made, and tax paid ( if any is due ) on what is left after.

 

Income remitted from abroad into Thailand

 

1. DTA applies first

 

2. Revenue Code applies second.

 

Caveat

 

This may change between today and the 31 December should a further announcement be made by the powers that be that is specific to income that is cirrently detailed in DTA's as being exempt, excluded or otherwise disregarded for Thai tax purposes.

But for those whose TEDA covers the current maximum of UK state pension, is there any real need to complete a tax return?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, Raindancer said:

But for those whose TEDA covers the current maximum of UK state pension, is there any real need to complete a tax return?

 

Honest answer, I dont know.

 

If I was also in receipt of the UK State Pension I would be filing a tax return to be on the safe side.

 

I would rather waste 30 minutes of my life by rocking up at the RD Office, paperwork in hand, and let them tell me that there is no need to file anything.

 

 

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

But for those whose TEDA covers the current maximum of UK state pension, is there any real need to complete a tax return?

Ah ha, that's what you have to decide.

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Honest answer, I dont know.

 

If I was also in receipt of the UK State Pension I would be filing a tax return to be on the safe side.

 

I would rather waste 30 minutes of my life by rocking up at the RD Office, paperwork in hand, and let them tell me that there is no need to file anything.

 

 

Good point.  I'll wait out until there is more info from TRD.

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Ah ha, that's what you have to decide.

Agreed....I'll go with the flow when and if it becomes necessary.😀

[garygooner]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Personal allowance (you) - 60k baht

Personal allowance (wife) - 60k

Over age 65 years allowance - 190k

Expenses for pension income. 50% of pension, max 100K - 100k

 

Sub total 410k

 

In addition, the first 150k of assessable income is zero rated for tax, 

 

Total = 150k + 410k = 560K baht

This is what I was asking before.

So, a single 60 year old with a private UK pension would get allowances of:

60k+100k+150k = 310k. 

Is this correct? 

 

[Raindancer]

8 minutes ago, garygooner said:

This is what I was asking before.

So, a single 60 year old with a private UK pension would get allowances of:

60k+100k+150k = 310k. 

Is this correct? 

 

Seems about right.  But you could also include any health insurance subs as deductibles within your TEDA, as far as I am aware.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, garygooner said:

This is what I was asking before.

So, a single 60 year old with a private UK pension would get allowances of:

60k+100k+150k = 310k. 

Is this correct? 

 

Yes

[Presnock]

On 11/7/2024 at 6:40 PM, chiang mai said:

How far under the radar can a resident foreigner be in Thailand! Immigration has all our bank details, the bank has our Immigration/visa details, everyone has copies of our passports, the BOT sees all our inbound and outbound TT's, the TRD gets details of tax withheld on savings accounts, etc etc etc. 

If the govt already has all the documentation, then anyone with an LTR with the remitted foreign income under the wealthy pensioner LTR shouldn't have to worry at all.  Same as all my previous documentation provided to immigration in order to get the "O" category visa which showed that it came from the US Govt civil service retirement and under the DTA that is only taxable by the US govt.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Seems about right.  But you could also include any health insurance subs as deductibles within your TEDA, as far as I am aware.

don't the health  insurance have to be Thai companies? 

[Raindancer]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

don't the health  insurance have to be Thai companies? 

I'm not really sure, hence my caveat " as far as I am aware".

 

I read it among all the other posts on the various posts on " income submitted to Thailand " etc.

 

But I cannot recall if it had to be a Thai health insurance.

[Raindancer]

14 minutes ago, Presnock said:

don't the health  insurance have to be Thai companies? 

Update to your question.

 

It seems you are correct, well spotted.  Thank you for raising this.

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-expat-tax-rates-allowances-and-deductions/

[chiang mai]

48 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If the govt already has all the documentation, then anyone with an LTR with the remitted foreign income under the wealthy pensioner LTR shouldn't have to worry at all.  Same as all my previous documentation provided to immigration in order to get the "O" category visa which showed that it came from the US Govt civil service retirement and under the DTA that is only taxable by the US govt.

Except they want their copies man, you gotta make lots and lots of copies.

[chiang mai]

48 minutes ago, Presnock said:

don't the health  insurance have to be Thai companies? 

Yes

[RocketDog]

On 11/7/2024 at 8:12 AM, ikke1959 said:

Paying tax is ok IF you get rights too... but now Thailand want to have tax from our income and assets overseas, and in the meanwhile they give nothing in return except double standards, no voting rights, no social security etc, while all imported goods are on very high tax, like wines and although they promised to lower the tax nothing happened yet since March. It is always a one way ticket in Thailand. I strongly believe after they chased the backpack tourists away and the people who could for one or another reason not apply for a long term visa, but contributed a lot to the Thai economy and families, now they want get rid of expats and retirees... 

This is not starting this year but already a long time the matter... Thailand doesn't look what is brought in but only how much money they can get out of you.

 

i once was at the immigration office several years ago and an elderly couple was at the desk and their visa could not be extended. The man had not enough money, but he told the immigration officer that he had bought a houseof 5 million, and furniture and a car, and paid it all and he told the officer he could not have 800k on a bank account anymore.... And the officer said it is the rule and the wife started to cry..... I don't know the end of the story as I was finished with my stuff, but it just an example of the shortsighted ideas in Thailand.. Children and grandchildren will come and visit the parents/grandparents and spend money here, good for tourism and economy, but Thailand only sees short term benefits and destroys everything on the long term

All true, but what can we do? Follow the rules or leave I guess?

Obviously railing against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune didn't help the old couple.

How are you or I or any expat any different from them?

 

Venting is OK but don't shoot yourself in the visa.

[1happykamper]

A "tax expert ".... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I doubt that in Thailand 

[Lorry]

On 11/8/2024 at 2:59 PM, chiang mai said:

Between 2004 and 2008, interest rates of 5% plus could be had from the banks here. At the time, I started a thread called bank interest rates which was the first of many. Foreigners were falling over themselves to take out fixed deposits plus banks like CIMB were paying above average market rates. Hundreds if not thousands of farangs were flocking to the TRD in the new year to get their tax on interest returned because at 5% it meant something, many of us had many millions on deposit at the time. ALL of those foreigners entered the tax system, the moment they applied for their refunds, many stayed there, some left and some passed away but there will still be a sizeable number of people still registered from that period.

The TRD's system has forgotten them already (not kidding).

In theory,  they could still find them.

In reality,  a couple of years back, no more. 

[Lorry]

On 11/8/2024 at 4:22 PM, chiang mai said:

I think most readers will agree that very few foreigners in Thailand, exist here on less than 50k baht per month, if all the threads about how much does it cost to live in Thailand are true. I've been reading those threads for twenty years and 50k is the minimum mentioned in recent years, That equates to 600k baht a year, minimum and is more than three times the level of average earnings by Thai's. 

 

From my personal perspective, my cost of living has reduced, as I've grown older but 50K a month is what I spend, my wife has income that is similar and our house and cars are paid off and we have no debt either. 

 

 

We  know different people.

I hardly know anybody who spends more than 50000 a month. 

(But sure,  I know these people exist. )

And many people aren't here 12 months per year.