Russia has a history of downing passenger planes — and covering it up

[AndreasHG]

In an article published today by the Washington Post, Max Boot updates the readers on the downing of the Azerbaijan Airlines Flight 8243. Of the 67 passengers and crew, 38 died, and many of the 29 survivors are in bad shape.

 

"Russian spokesmen blamed a bird collision, but a preliminary Azerbaijani investigation — backed by Western aviation experts and U.S. officials — concluded that a Russian antiaircraft missile most likely brought down the plane. Azerbaijani officials told local media that not only did Russian fire damage the airplane, but Russian authorities also jammed its electronics and denied it permission to land, forcing it to divert across the Caspian Sea to Kazakhstan." Evidently the Russians hoped that the plane would sink to the Caspian seabed making any investigation on the causes of the incident extremely difficult.

 

"Such accidents, admittedly, happen in wartime everywhere. On Sunday, a U.S. guided-missile cruiser in the Red Sea mistakenly shot down a Navy F/A-18 fighter that it probably mistook for a Houthi drone or missile (the pilot and a weapons officer survived with minor injuries after ejecting). In 1988, a U.S. warship battling Iranian gunboats in the Persian Gulf shot down an Iranian passenger aircraft that it mistook for an Iranian fighter aircraft, killing 290 people."

 

"But when civilized nations commit such offenses, they apologize and make reparations. They don’t refuse to admit what they did or try to blame someone else for their actions."

 

"That, however, has been the Kremlin’s reprehensible pattern dating from the 1983 downing of Korean Air Lines Flight 007 — making its protestations of innocence in Wednesday’s case all the more dismissible."

"A decade ago, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, went down over a portion of eastern Ukraine controlled by Russian-backed forces, killing 298 passengers and crew. The Kremlin denied responsibility and spun out various conspiracy theories, blaming the crash on either a Ukrainian fighter jet or some kind of elaborate CIA plot. (A Russian website even bizarrely claimed that the passengers were already dead when the plane took off.) Eventually a Dutch-led investigation proved that the airplane had been brought down by a Russian Buk surface-to-air missile system fired from the Russian-controlled region of Ukraine."

 

This pattern is repeated every time there is an incident in Russia. Think about Chernobyl: The Chernobyl disaster began on 26 April 1986 with the explosion of the No. 4 reactor of the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant near the city of Pripyat. As the plant was run by authorities in Moscow, the government of Ukraine did not receive prompt information on the accident. On April 28, radiation levels set off alarms at the Forsmark Nuclear Power Plant in Sweden,[67][68] over 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) from the Chernobyl Plant. 

That day, the Swedish government contacted the Soviet government to inquire about whether there had been a nuclear accident in the Soviet Union. The Soviets initially denied it. It was only after the Swedish government suggested they were about to file an official alert with the International Atomic Energy Agency that the Soviet government admitted that an accident had taken place at Chernobyl. 

At first, the Soviets only conceded that a minor accident had occurred, but once they began evacuating more than 100,000 people, the full scale of the situation was realized by the global community.

 

Lying through your teeth, even when unnecessary and easily refuted, must be encoded in Russia's DNA.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/12/27/azerbaijan-flight-crash-russia-ukraine-history/

[zmisha]

Grozny is currently a war zone. So those who send civil aviation to this region are aware of the risk.

[zmisha]

The main question in this story is "Who will be the judge?"

Chechen court will say that it was a NATO`s drone seen daily in the air of Grozny city.
NATO`s court will say that is was Russian rocket.

Choosing the right judge and the right court is the most important thing here. Z guys hope that no one from NATO will be allowed to investigate this. So we will have the right judge and the right conclusions. Other judges have other opinions but they will not have any access to evidences - so their statements will be unfounded.

[AndreasHG]

1 hour ago, zmisha said:

Chechen court will say that it was a NATO`s drone

If there was even a remote possibility that a Ukrainian drone caused this incident, you can rest assured Russia would have already denounced it.

The reality is that drones are not designed to shoot down planes.

[zmisha]

1 minute ago, AndreasHG said:

If there was even a remote possibility that a Ukrainian drone caused this incident, you can rest assured Russia would have already denounced it.

The reality is that drones are not designed to shoot down planes.

In any war, history is written by the winners. Whoever wins will tell the world how it all happened.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, zmisha said:

In any war, history is written by the winners. Whoever wins will tell the world how it all happened.

No need for that, it's clear what happened.

[Lacessit]

It is not just air disasters. Russia has a history of suppressing the truth. It comes with a culture of paranoia and secrecy.

 

News of the Chernobyl disaster was suppressed for 5 days, until the radiation readings from fallout in other countries made it impossible to conceal.

 

The Novocherkassk strike of 1962 resulted in 26 unarmed protestors being shot dead by Soviet troops. The massacre was concealed by the Soviet government for decades.

 

Now we have Putin, saying all is well with his special military operation. It would be most inconvenient if the real casualty figures ever saw the light of day.

[Jingthing]

The accidental targetting was somewhat understandable and excusable in the fog of war (although there should be no civilian aviation in such areas) but the refusal to allow landing and sending it over the Caspian Sea hoping to sink it was a crime of unspeakable evil. 

[novacova]

On 12/28/2024 at 10:18 AM, AndreasHG said:

Russia has a history of downing passenger planes — and covering it up

Most all countries have a history of covering up their malfeasances.

11 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Russia has a history of suppressing the truth.

Yes, as with most countries, especially the United States, we don’t publicly know even the tip of the iceberg of what some of the atrocities three letter agencies have hidden. Though as with most patriots of their homeland, the truth is impossible.

[Flyguy330]

22 minutes ago, zmisha said:

Can`t see anyone blaming Russia outside the NATO+ (including Japan, Israel and SK).

Putin apologises for shootdown...https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/putin-apologises-aliyev-over-tragic-incident-with-azerbaijan-airlines-plane-2024-12-28/

[blazes]

What's in it for Russia to bring down the Azerbaijan plane????

[3NUMBAS]

Russia is a Pariah for years and there is no way back for the apemen 

[3NUMBAS]

4 minutes ago, blazes said:

What's in it for Russia to bring down the Azerbaijan plane????

Drunken operators at the controls ,they don’t know what they’re doing sober

[AndreasHG]

2 hours ago, zmisha said:

In any war, history is written by the winners.

Then rest assured the downing of the Azerbaijani flight will be blamed on the Russians 

[AndreasHG]

1 hour ago, novacova said:

Most all countries have a history of covering up their malfeasances.

Actually I already replied to a similar comment and I stand by what I said. Of course, for a Russian who has never experienced living in an open society is difficult to understand.

”

Cover-ups in open, democratic societies simply don't work. In the event of an incident, the simple implementation of follow-up, corrective and prevention measures, involving tents of people, playing different roles within an organization, is almost impossible to hide and a clear sign that something went wrong.

 

Cover-ups only work under totalitarian regimes, or in the sick minds of conspiracy theorists and in Hollywood movies, which spare no effort to undermine Americans' trust in national institutions.

 

Those who don't understand this do not understand the true nature of open, democratic societies, vs totalitarian ones. And very likely don't deserve to live as free men and women in an open society. 

 

”

[blazes]

WAPO still fighting the Cold War.

Relying on people's short memories (about Korean Airlines in 1983).

That plane was deliberately flown into Soviet air space to test Soviet defences (in particular to see if they were prepared to shoot down a civilian airliner).

 

The plane was surrounded by Mig jets, ordering the plane to land on Soviet territory.  I seem to recall that the Mig pilots gave the KA pilot 15 minutes to comply.  He flew straight on.

Even if you don't believe this explanation, you still have to account for why the KA jet was flying over Soviet territory.

[Patong2021]

21 minutes ago, blazes said:

WAPO still fighting the Cold War.

Relying on people's short memories (about Korean Airlines in 1983).

That plane was deliberately flown into Soviet air space to test Soviet defences (in particular to see if they were prepared to shoot down a civilian airliner).

 

The plane was surrounded by Mig jets, ordering the plane to land on Soviet territory.  I seem to recall that the Mig pilots gave the KA pilot 15 minutes to comply.  He flew straight on.

Even if you don't believe this explanation, you still have to account for why the KA jet was flying over Soviet territory.

Your revisionist history is factually incorrect. No order to land was given. On the contrary, the Russian  general who ordered the aircraft to be shot down was aware of it being a civilian aircraft and chose to  act on his own.  (Putin has promoted this madman to General of the Army). The senior political leaders of Russia were not informed. They would not have allowed this error to have been made.  Following the incident, Russia denied involvement for 5 days and blocked any foreign recovery efforts. The black box, later found by the Soviet Union, confirmed that Korean Air 007 was not conducting any reconnaissance operations, and the plane had merely deviated from its course. The pilots had failed to verify their autopilot settings. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, President Yeltsin handed over all case materials to international organizations and  the cascade of errors was revealed.

 

Putin refuses to accept responsibility for Russia having fired the missile  and had the aircraft not survived he would have been as dishonest  about this event as he was with the  dowinng of the  KLM flight. The Azerbajabians are furious and rightly so. Russia has a shoot first and ignore the consequences attitude. It is a natation of barbarians.

[AndreasHG]

58 minutes ago, blazes said:

The plane was surrounded by Mig jets, ordering the plane to land on Soviet territory.  I seem to recall that the Mig pilots gave the KA pilot 15 minutes to comply.  He flew straight on.

Even if you don't believe this explanation, you still have to account for why the KA jet was flying over Soviet territory.

 

Stop posting nonsense. I understand that the St. Petersburg troll factory must keep you guys busy, but there is a limit and that limit is decency.

 

The Korean Airlines flight was shot down by a Soviet Sukhoi Su-15 on September 1, 1983. 

 

It took the Soviets 5 days to recognize that the Boeing had been shot down and another three days to admit that they knew where the wreckage was located.

 

But even when admitting the downing of the Boeing 747 by a missile attack, the Soviets kept on lying.

For 9 years and until 1992, when Russian President Boris Yeltsin finally disclosed five top-secret memos dating from a few weeks after the downing of KAL 007 in 1983.

The memos contained Soviet communications (from KGB Chief Viktor Chebrikov and Defense Minister Dmitriy Ustinov to General Secretary Yuri Andropov) that indicated that they knew the location of KAL 007's wreckage while they were simulating a search and harassing the American Navy; they had found the sought-after cockpit voice recorder on October 20, 1983 (50 days after the incident); but they had decided to keep this knowledge secret, the reason being that the tapes could not support that KAL 007's flight to Soviet territory was a deliberately planned intelligence mission.

 

What would be the point of lying for 9 consecutive years if the killing was the result of a legitimate, proportionate and well-considered action?

 

It's simple: the action was not legitimate, not proportionate, and it was even reckless.

This was a cold-blooded murder of the 269 people on board, including 22 children under the age of 12 and 23 active crew members plus 6 deadheading crew members.

 

Russia never paid any compensation to the families of victims of the Korean Air Lines (KAL) Flight 007 disaster.

 

Compare it to the downing of Iran Air Flight 655 by the US Navy, on the morning of 3 July 1988.
The Department of Defense (DoD) officials initially said that Vincennes had shot down an Iranian F-14, but issued a retraction within hours and confirmed Iranian reports that the target was instead a civilian Airbus.

 

In February 1996, the U.S. agreed to pay Iran US$131.8 million. US$61.8 million of the claim was in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed in the shootdown: $300,000 per wage-earning victim and $150,000 per non-wage-earner.

As part of the settlement, the US agreed to send Iran two Airbus A300-600s, the first Western planes to be supplied to the country since 1980 (after the 1979 Iranian revolution).

 

This is what a decent country does. 

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, novacova said:

Most all countries have a history of covering up their malfeasances.

Yes, as with most countries, especially the United States, we don’t publicly know even the tip of the iceberg of what some of the atrocities three letter agencies have hidden. Though as with most patriots of their homeland, the truth is impossible.

Vladimir thanks you.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

Russia is a Pariah for years and there is no way back for the apemen 

Generations.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, blazes said:

What's in it for Russia to bring down the Azerbaijan plane????

It wasn't hit intentionally.

But once hit they wanted to bury the evidence in the Caspian sea.

[zmisha]

5 hours ago, blazes said:

WAPO still fighting the Cold War.

Relying on people's short memories (about Korean Airlines in 1983).

We remember Korean Airlines and Iran Air also

[AndreasHG]

37 minutes ago, zmisha said:

And let's forgive those who decided to fill their pockets with bucks by sending a passenger plane into a war zone. They are small, unreasonable children who became victims of a big, scary and cruel Russia - how could they know about the consequences?

 

Misha, frankly speaking, your comments are childish, mis constructed and misinformed. 

 

The International Civil Aviation Organization (a United Nations agency which helps 193 countries, which would include Russia, to cooperate together and share their skies to their mutual benefit), states, under the Montreal convention, that "States and States alone maintain sovereign authority over their airspace".

 

"This authority carries with it the responsibility to issue risk advisories regarding any threats to the safety of civilian aircraft operating in their airspace. Said threats may include, but are not limited to, armed conflicts, ash clouds due to volcanic eruptions, missile tests and rocket launches, etc."

 

"States also have authority to close their airspace where certain safety threats may warrant that action".

 

Even "ICAO does not possess the authority to over-ride sovereign States in order to close their airspace or reroute airline traffic".   

 

Airlines have some discretion in their decision making. "Aircraft and airline operators  are responsible for assessing global airspace risks communicated by States, and/or third parties, before deciding where they fly".

But do you really expect the flag airline company of Azerbaijan, a country which is a member of Russian dominated Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) and which is de-facto and de-jure a military ally of Russia, to dispute the Russian authorities claim that the Russian territory is safe?

 

Do you really expect the Azerbaijan Airlines to tell the whole World that Russia is lying, and its skies are dangerous to fly, because the Russian air defenses are crap?

 

If you do, you are childish.

 

https://www.icao.int/Newsroom/Pages/ICAO-Clarifies-International-Conflict-Zone-Guidance.aspx

[AndreasHG]

6 minutes ago, zmisha said:

The future of aviation depends on how we respond to events like this. If society continues to assume that airlines can easily send planes wherever they want, then billionaires will continue to line their pockets with bucks at the expense of passengers' lives.

 

You can write to the daughter of the Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, a key ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Mrs. Arzu Aliyeva, who owns the airline, together with other members of Azerbaijani political elites, and voice your displeasure.

I am sure both lham Aliyev and Vladimir Putin will appreciate and prepare to welcome you when you'll be back in Moscow.

You can find Mrs. Arzu Aliyeva in Baku.

 

Arzu Aliyeva - Wikipedia

 

[Rimmer]

Some troll / deflection posts have been removed.

@zmisha

 

[Lacessit]

22 hours ago, novacova said:

Most all countries have a history of covering up their malfeasances.

Yes, as with most countries, especially the United States, we don’t publicly know even the tip of the iceberg of what some of the atrocities three letter agencies have hidden. Though as with most patriots of their homeland, the truth is impossible.

Your post ignores the fact in democracies, mistakes are acknowledged, such as the My Lai massacre, and the downing of the Iranian passenger aircraft.

 

Russia extends its paranoia to its own people. The personnel of the Kursk submarine which sank in August 2000 might have been saved,  if Russian officials had not refused help from nearby vessels. It took 5 days for Putin, holidaying in Sochi, to authorize assistance from British and Norwegian divers. By then, it was too late.

 

The usual deflection from a Kremlin troll.

 

 

[spidermike007]

"But when civilized nations commit such offenses, they apologize and make reparations. They don’t refuse to admit what they did or try to blame someone else for their actions."

 

There is absolutely nothing civilized about Russia's leaders and a good percentage of the Russian population, absolutely nothing. Expect only lies and expect a total lack of responsibility. 

[Mavideol]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:12 AM, zmisha said:

Grozny is currently a war zone. So those who send civil aviation to this region are aware of the risk.

perfect example of Russian denial

[Mavideol]

2 hours ago, AndreasHG said:

 

Misha, frankly speaking, your comments are childish, mis constructed and misinformed. 

 

The International Civil Aviation Organization (a United Nations agency which helps 193 countries, which would include Russia, to cooperate together and share their skies to their mutual benefit), states, under the Montreal convention, that "States and States alone maintain sovereign authority over their airspace".

 

"This authority carries with it the responsibility to issue risk advisories regarding any threats to the safety of civilian aircraft operating in their airspace. Said threats may include, but are not limited to, armed conflicts, ash clouds due to volcanic eruptions, missile tests and rocket launches, etc."

 

"States also have authority to close their airspace where certain safety threats may warrant that action".

 

Even "ICAO does not possess the authority to over-ride sovereign States in order to close their airspace or reroute airline traffic".   

 

Airlines have some discretion in their decision making. "Aircraft and airline operators  are responsible for assessing global airspace risks communicated by States, and/or third parties, before deciding where they fly".

But do you really expect the flag airline company of Azerbaijan, a country which is a member of Russian dominated Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) and which is de-facto and de-jure a military ally of Russia, to dispute the Russian authorities claim that the Russian territory is safe?

 

Do you really expect the Azerbaijan Airlines to tell the whole World that Russia is lying, and its skies are dangerous to fly, because the Russian air defenses are crap?

 

If you do, you are childish.

 

https://www.icao.int/Newsroom/Pages/ICAO-Clarifies-International-Conflict-Zone-Guidance.aspx

typical behavioral from Russians....

 

Police arrested a Russian man who went on a violent rampage at a hotel in the Choeng Thale area of Phuket, physically assaulting other hotel guests and Thai police officers.

 

[Rimmer]

Another troll post and a reply to it has been removed