Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Cat Boy]

The denials and backpedaling from the Revenue Department will begin immediately, if they have not already done so.

[cjinchiangrai]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I think this is the part where someone says "citation needed."

Looks like a no brainer to me. Bank statements and a tax return. They need to update the rules with MFA but that is easy enough. There are plenty of tax returns with zero due for record only. File one.

[black tabby12345]

11 minutes ago, Lopburikid said:

It is important to note that these new amendments are only in the drafting stage at the moment and formal approval by the Cabinet and the Thai parliament is required before they can be enacted.  This was of September 24TH 2024. has it been passed yet?

 

That date is long gone...

That 'news' first  made a headline in May last year.

9 months on, no real new development though.

All we could ever hear was,  the Empty Bark of the tax chief and these lousy accounting firms(targetting expats).

[Card]

6 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

If they did, then the Thai taxes would not be an issue. If they pay 0 at home, then the entire income becomes taxable here. You just need to fill in the forms to know that.

If only if that was wholly true. Paying taxes in uk on income there does not mean u don't have to file a tax return when u remit it to thailand. Taxation in uk only provides CREDITS fir tax already paid in uk. It dies not mean that it is not liable for filing or tax liability in thailand.

[NoDisplayName]

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The UK main tax return, SA 100, Check box 5 ( if you have foreign income ) and complete SA 106.

 

Yes, it is a supplementary, to list your foreign income, taxes paid overseas and list any DTA's that you wish to utilise.

 

Show me the law that says I have to submit an SA100 when I file my THAI tax return.

 

If you can do that, I'll show you the box where you declare the number of times taxpayer has flogged a dead horse. 

[Card]

Just now, black tabby12345 said:

 

That date is long gone...

That 'news' first  made a headline in May last year.

9 months on, no real new development though.

All we could ever hear was,  the Empty Bark of the tax chief and these lousy accounting firms(targetting expats).

The regs have already been implemented for tax on remitted earnings abroad. Any taxable income remitted to thailand from 1 Jan 2024 have to be assessed by March this year at the latest. What's in the pipeline is global tax on earnings!

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, Card said:

If only if that was wholly true. Paying taxes in uk on income there does not mean u don't have to file a tax return when u remit it to thailand. Taxation in uk only provides CREDITS fir tax already paid in uk. It dies not mean that it is not liable for filing or tax liability in thailand.

And income exemptions in the UK do not mean anything for Thai taxes or filing requirements. They only reduce UK taxes but that can increase Thai taxes.

[Mattd]

4 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I would need to see an actual reference to that - from a legitimate source - before I'd believe it.

Everything I've been reading about the subject suggests they want to see all of your income, even if it's covered by a treaty, and the only way to do that is by filing a return.

It is worth pointing out that even a lot of "experts" (as in Thai professionals) don't seem to know what the regulations actually are or will be. I think that was in a Bangkok Post article last year about the taxation of foreigners where they quoted some (Thai) tax lawyers who noted there were a lot of unanswered questions about what was taxable and who was actually required to file.

But if there's a Revenue Department document or notice in the Gazette that says you don't have to file a return if your only remitted funds are from non-taxable pensions - that should be pinned to the top of this discussion.

As that would definitely clear up most of the confusion for most of the people here.

 

I would agree with @card that Thailand will only apply income tax to funds earned or remitted to Thailand, below quoted from the Thailand Revenue Code:

 

"Section 41 A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand."

 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding from some posters (not your good self) that if their income earned or remitted into Thailand is below the allowances that they do not need to submit a tax return, technically this is incorrect, any person deemed resident in Thailand for tax purposes must submit a tax return, regardless of the level of income.

This applies only to income from the previous tax year that is earned or remitted to Thailand.

 

None of this is new, it has been a part of the revenue code for years, what is new is the authorities deciding to look in to those deemed tax resident in Thailand and not paying any income tax, this applies to both Expat and Thais.

 

I would think that for most it is going to be a case of seeing how this evolves.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Cat Boy said:

The denials and backpedaling from the Revenue Department will begin immediately, if they have not already done so.

 

Despite all the goings on over this issue, for the last 18 months.

 

It says it all, when the Revenue Department (;The actual tax people ) have said nothing.

 

Impossible that they cannot know, via the media etc, what is going on, but have flat out refused to say a dicky bird, to quash all the lies that are being perpetrated in the media, online and elsewhere.

 

The silence from Embassies is also rather telling.

[anrcaccount]

3 hours ago, Card said:

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Don't worry, I agree with you, it's the other poster who is parroting 'expat' tax advice from a foreigner fronted firm that only sprung up 18 months ago.........

 

The only "real" knowledge has been shared by multiple members now,  who have gone to their local TRD, and been sent home packing.

 

With the real world status quo being - TRD isn't interested in taxation of foreigners remitted funds. 

 

 

 

 

I went to the trouble of sharing my source with you and all you give in return is a sneering remark about parroting. Don't ask me again.

 

I asked if your source was A or B.

 

A) a slick presented, foreigner fronted 'expat' tax specialist that sprung up less than 18 months ago?

 
Or

 
B) did you take it from an established firm that has actually had experience filing Thai taxes , and dealing with the TRD, over many years? 

You said B, when it was in fact A, so remarks are warranted IMO. 

 

Be very careful with this source, as it is not an established Thai tax firm, it was only established in late 2023, and as such, has a short tenure filing Thai taxes or dealing with the TRD. 

 

Many are arguing this firm is illegally giving advice, as it has multiple foreigners dispensing tax advice on free calls and publishing multiple webinars, none of which feature a single Thai person........... but, I guess that's a different issue...........

 

 

[samtam]

11 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Looks like a no brainer to me. Bank statements and a tax return. They need to update the rules with MFA but that is easy enough. There are plenty of tax returns with zero due for record only. File one.

 

Do you know whether when you file a tax return online with no tax due, (because it falls beneath TEDA), whether RD then automatically ask you to provide evidence to prove your self-assessment? I have all the evidence, but it's rather complicated, in that it's in (a foreign) bank statements, which I have printed off as a record, and keep in my files. But to submit these scanned statements without explanation would be pretty meaningless to the RD officer. 

[J Branche]

2 hours ago, darrenrrrr said:

So if I have a tax free pension in Australia but live in Thailand you are saying I will be taxed , that’s not how I read clause 19 of the Australian DTA it states in the contracting state where is is earnt 

It also points to Clause 16 in the language by my interpretation supports the Pension would be taxed in the Contracting State where it was earned.

 

This is one of the problems with laws, contracts, etc.

They make them just vague enough that you question what the actual intended interpretation is.

 

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Looks like a no brainer to me. Bank statements and a tax return. They need to update the rules with MFA but that is easy enough. There are plenty of tax returns with zero due for record only. File one.

 

Well, sure, immigration could require a tax return for anyone tax resident during their current extension.  It's not likely to happen as immigration doesn't have the manpower or skillset to inspect every applicants worldwide tax records, given that the majority (I assume) of applicants are not required to file a return. 

 

TRD hasn't changed the regulations.  It's still (mostly) clear as to who is required to file, and I doubt TRD will accept the additional workload upon orders from immigration.

 

Perhaps immigration can dust off the unused tax clearance certificate rules.

 

But anyhoo, I want a citiation for pending legislation introduced and actual legal requirements for any of this. 

 

Hub of fearporn.

[cjinchiangrai]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

 

Do you know whether when you file a tax return online with no tax due, (because it falls beneath TEDA), whether RD then automatically ask you to provide evidence to prove your self assessment? I have all the evidence, but it's rather complicated, in that it's in (a foreign) bank statements, which I have printed off as a record, and keep in my files. But to submit these scanned statements without explanation would be pretty meaningless to the RD officer. 

No idea, I have not filed yet. I expect that there would be a record requirement though.

[samtam]

1 minute ago, cjinchiangrai said:

No idea, I have not filed yet. I expect that there would be a record requirement though.

 

Thanks. Maybe someone who has recently filed could answer. If records are required to be presented, RD is going to increase their workload substantially, but maybe they're prepared for that🤔?

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

Well, sure, immigration could require a tax return for anyone tax resident during their current extension.  It's not likely to happen as immigration doesn't have the manpower or skillset to inspect every applicants worldwide tax records, given that the majority (I assume) of applicants are not required to file a return. 

 

TRD hasn't changed the regulations.  It's still (mostly) clear as to who is required to file, and I doubt TRD will accept the additional workload upon orders from immigration.

 

Perhaps immigration can dust off the unused tax clearance certificate rules.

 

But anyhoo, I want a citiation for pending legislation introduced and actual legal requirements for any of this. 

 

Hub of fearporn.

Immigration would not be auditing, just collecting the filings. It has not been offered in a bill as far as I know but that does not mean anything. It could be a quick check on remitted income.

[Card]

3 hours ago, AsiaCheese said:

I would strongly advise to watch this guy here, and what he has to say. As long as there are no clear instructions from the Thai tax authorities, having someone talk about what's not set in any way (by the proper authorities) makes little sense...!

 

 

 

He said nothing of value. Total waste of time 

[black tabby12345]

13 minutes ago, Card said:

Any taxable income remitted to thailand from 1 Jan 2024 have to be assessed by March this year at the latest. 

 

Haven't remitted any money from outside Thailand.

So looks like I am not involved...

[NoDisplayName]

13 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Looks like a no brainer to me. Bank statements and a tax return. They need to update the rules with MFA but that is easy enough. There are plenty of tax returns with zero due for record only. File one.

 

I did.  Filed three returns last year (filed late) and got refunds, and filed 2024 last week, expecting a refund in a couple weeks.

 

Filed in accordance with regulations, not according to misinformation from internet tax grifters.  I did not declare any remittances as all were non-assessable.

 

The effective change in the tax law last year, actually just a re-interpretation of existing law, affects me not other than my being more careful to remit only pre-2024 income.

[Card]

1 minute ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Immigration would not be auditing, just collecting the filings. It has not been offered in a bill as far as I know but that does not mean anything. It could be a quick check on remitted income.

Immigration will only need a letter from the Thai tax authorities to confirm that you have filed a tax return and it is in order. Immigration will use it like any other document u need for extension as long as it is validated by the relevant authority. Same with your bank statement and letter.

 

But this is only likely when they bring in global earnings tax which is inevitable. The current remittance tax, which is now law, is just to warm us up.

[stubuzz]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

18 hours ago, stubuzz said:

If you transfered money to buy proerty, would this be taxed?

Maybe

So, buy a condo and receive a 30% tax bill the folowing year. Not going to help the housing market.

[koolkarl]

Even if you paid only 100 baht, you get nothing in return except more polluted air.  Still have to do 90 day, have to report to immigration within 24 hours even if you stayed 1 nite in a hotel, max retirement visa is 1 year which is nothing more than a tourist visa, can't own land, no health care, no immigrant status, etc.  Talk about a rip off.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

But anyhoo, I want a citiation for pending legislation introduced and actual legal requirements for any of this. 

 

Yet again, Royal Decree dated 31 March 2023, will allow Thailand ( without any new Laws, pending legislation, or farts in space ) to implement whatever is required to comply with CRS, rules and regulations.

 

I can appreciate that some people do not want to hear that. That is the reality of signing up to International Agreements.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

43 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

 This is a Canadian model, where non taxable (non assessable) income is factored in with taxable income, to potentially drive up the tax bracket, and thus collect more taxes on taxable income. Thailand would be smart to emulate this, as its potential to raise tax brackets, and thus taxes collected on assessable income.

 

 

 

This is also how the IRS now treats the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. Prior to about ten years ago, this wasn't the case. 

[StayinThailand2much]

12 minutes ago, Mattd said:

A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part (...)

 

Sorry, but that raises so many questions, e.g.:

 

1. 'Income' from when, 1975 (or whenever it was earned), since residing in Thailand, or just for the tax year?

2. If I hold $20,000 in savings, had a taxable income overseas of $5,000 last year, and transfer $3,000 to Thailand, how does the Thailand Revenue Department know whether such transferred money came out of my savings, or last tax year's income?

 

[Card]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yet again, Royal Decree dated 31 March 2023, will allow Thailand ( without any new Laws, pending legislation, or farts in space ) to implement whatever is required to comply with CRS, rules and regulations.

 

I can appreciate that some people do not want to hear that. That is the reality of signing up to International Agreements.

Exactly. The dinosaurs who reject anything that takes them out of their Thailand comfort zone are in for a rude awakening.

[StayinThailand2much]

4 minutes ago, stubuzz said:

So, buy a condo and receive a 30% tax bill the folowing year. Not going to help the housing market.

 

Yes, this may actually backfire, as the economy may lose way more than the few $$ extra revenue...

[Card]

Just now, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Sorry, but that raises so many questions, e.g.:

 

1. 'Income' from when, 1975 (or whenever it was earned), since residing in Thailand, or just for the tax year?

2. If I hold $20,000 in savings, had a taxable income overseas of $5,000 last year, and transfer $3,000 to Thailand, how does the Thailand Revenue Department know whether such transferred money came out of my savings, or last tax year's income?

 

Haha nice one. YOU have to prove it. You should not mix your earnings with your pre 1 Jan 2024 savings and have statements to prove it.  No.mixing. otherwise it's too complicated to bother trying to prove it 

[NoDisplayName]

13 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Do you know whether when you file a tax return online with no tax due, (because it falls beneath TEDA), whether RD then automatically ask you to provide evidence to prove your self-assessment? I have all the evidence, but it's rather complicated, in that it's in (a foreign) bank statements, which I have printed off as a record, and keep in my files. But to submit these scanned statements without explanation would be pretty meaningless to the RD officer. 

 

No documentation needed.

 

When you file online, you list ONLY Thai-sourced income and assessable foreign remittances.

 

You are not even required to upload tax withholding statements from your bank/broker to get a refund, as TRD (apparently) has access to current year tax withholding data.

 

For prior years filed late, TRD (apparently) does not have ready access to this data, so a request is sent for a bank withholding statement.

 

No documentation is needed (not employed in Thailand, so that may be different) unless you're called in for an audit.  I've only read of two individuals on this here forum that have been audited, and I believe one was employed here but stopped filing, and the other had a business here.

 

 

[Lapun]

For anyone interested, this is my take on the Double Tax Agreement between Thailand & Australia.

 

Also, as far as I know, the Thai Revenue Code is existing legislation that the Revenue Department has asked the department to enforce.