Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[White Rabbit]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:57 AM, Ben Zioner said:

This will be my policy now. Just hope LTR lasts until I die, 4 or 5 years hopefully, as 77/78 would be a nice age to go.

 

I would then be proud of having limited my  IT to 4 or 5 % of my life's income. Which is everyone's duty: keep the basturds honest.

Ya can make it to 88 and it's a lucky number.

[Ben Zioner]

2 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Ya can make it to 88 and it's a lucky number.

Nope, my prognosis is based on medical facts, not stats. 

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Not entirely - but there is nothing in CRS rules about requiring countries to report individual's global income

 

Bingo.

 

and another thought before I head off to the Hospital.

 

Did the New interpretation of the rules, the issuance of POR 161 / 162, not move Thailand to a defacto worldwide taxation policy, albiet, still with some exemptions?

[oldcpu]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:57 AM, Ben Zioner said:

This will be my policy now. Just hope LTR lasts until I die, 4 or 5 years hopefully, as 77/78 would be a nice age to go.

 

 

We are hoping you can last much longer with a very healthy and mobile life - and able to enjoy and appreciate the great things in life.

 

I suspect (possibly like you) that when the 10 years of my LTR is over , and if LTR still available, I need to decide:  do I go for another 10 years, or simply revert back to a Type-O (with annual extensions) ?  Possibly by then an agent will appeal to me more which will drive up the Type-O annual extension costs, and I may still stay with the LTR visa.  ...  Taxation may also be an issue then, although that is far in the future, and given TIT, who knows?

[Ben Zioner]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:59 AM, SportRider said:

ATM cards will at some time be included (but not yet implemented AFAIK). 

 

Credit cards not included (and may be too complicated). 

Not complicated at all. Only needs computing power, which becomes cheaper every day.

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Not entirely - but there is nothing in CRS rules about requiring countries to report individual's global income.  Further, CRS rules even exempt government regulated accounts for individuals.

Please elaborate.

CRS rules apply to FIs. FIs (may) try to make their customers comply with what CRS require them.

Individuals are free to comply or not (with/without consequences) with their FIs policy/requirements.  

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Bingo.

 

and another thought before I head off to the Hospital.

 

Did the New interpretation of the rules, the issuance of POR 161 / 162, not move Thailand to a defacto worldwide taxation policy, albiet, still with some exemptions?

 

No Paw.161/162 did not do such.  Those documents only refer to income remitted into Thailand, with 1-Jan-2024 being a demarcation date.

 

There is no Thailand tax on global income if not remitted to Thailand.  Further, there is no requirement by Thailand to list global income due to CRS requirements, despite what some on this forum inaccurately post.

.

[watchcat]

Does pension  count as overseas income?

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Please elaborate.

CRS rules apply to FIs. FIs (may) try to make their customers comply with what CRS require them.

Individuals are free to comply or not (with/without consequences) with their FIs policy/requirements.  

 

For example, both the Thailand and Canada faq on CRS implementation aspects for their countries, while noting in general that Financial Institutions accounts for individuals need to be reported to OECD per CRS, also note that government regulated accounts are not reported to CRS. 

 

For example such government regulated accounts in Canada include (but are not restricted to) Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs) and Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs). Money in RRSPs and RRIFs are allowed to grow tax free by Canadian law.  However when one is taking money out of the RRIFs and RRSPs, one must then pay tax to Canada on such withdrawals, and one must file a Canadian Income tax return.

 

The Thailand FAQ re: CRS also notes Thailand government regulated funds for individuals are not reported to CRS.

[White Rabbit]

12 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I hear you ...  i read what you note.  But I think we both know the current practice is different in cases involving some foreigners.

 

My wife had the view (likely incorrect) that I needed a TIN even thou my income not assessable.  I did not know what was correct.

 

She applied online for a tax ID for me (via some Thai language site).  She had to upload my passport, pink-ID, etc ... and provided other information on me.

 

This goes to the Central RD office in Bangkok.  Guess what they do?  .... I'll tell you.  They pass the application to Phuket RD.

 

What did Phuket RD do?  They called my wife and I up on the phone (my wife answered and talked to them).  They noted they would not give me a tax ID even thou  I was spending > 180 days in Thailand (closer to 300 days per year in Thailand) as I was not remitting income to Thailand.  But ... but ...  but what about "CRS" that some post on-and-on-and-on about (not you posting that - granted). It was never mentioned.  I don't think the Phuket RD (to which Bangkok RD delegated this to) cares less about CRS for individuals.

 

So ?   Bangkok RD passes this to the local office to decide.

 

I don't dispute what you typed ... but the facts are also that neither the HQ Bangkok RD nor the local provincial RD will provide myself tax-ID at this time.

 

I am not saying do not file an income tax return nor am I saying don't go try to get a Thai TIN.  I am saying I tried and failed (with full disclosure to them as to my finances).

 

Everyone needs to decide on their own approach.

 

I just play super safe - stayed 172 days and on a LTR WP visa. Am I super paranoid?

 

BTW: I wouldn't mind to pay some taxes but fed up filling out forms and undressing myself outside the bedroom. Understandable at my age. 😉

Thailand would be well advised to levy a flat tax per head of 3000.- USD or so. In return we'd get a proper tax residence/TIN - can be useful should our home countries/other institutions demand such.

That might not be in line with OECD regulations but then who cares? Thailand can safely ignore. 

 

(Joining the OECD with its agenda of creating worldwide bureaucracies which Thailand obviously aims to really has no advantages except perceived prestige. However, with Trump I don't think the OECD has a bright future anyway. He doesn't favour worldwide regulations and rightly so. The Chinese will never join as secrecy culturally always trumps transparency for them.)

[oldcpu]

16 minutes ago, watchcat said:

Does pension  count as overseas income?

 

 If the pension comes from overseas, then I would say yes. 

 

In the case of Thailand, my understanding is 'pensions' are treated as 'income'. 

 

Although having typed that, note that Thai Tax code article 42 lists exempt income that is not to be included in tax calculations,  where income exempt due to ministerial regulations are not to be included in Thai tax calculations.  One the needs to accurately assess if their overseas income (in particular pensions) are exempt due to Thai ministerial regulations. In some  cases they are exempt, in other cases they are not exempt.

 

For example, Canada's DTA (Double Tax Agreement) with Thailand states  Canada has exclusive taxation rights on Canadian pensions (for Canadian pension receipt by those who are tax residents of Thailand).  In contrast, German's DTA with Thailand states Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on German pensions (for German pension receipt by those who are residents of Thailand).

 

There are of course other relevant ministerial regulations.

[oldcpu]

20 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

I just play super safe - stayed 172 days and on a LTR WP visa. Am I super paranoid?

 

I don't think you are paranoid.  In my case, I previous planned for such an eventuality as this 'uncertainty' period, and while a non-resident moved a fair amount of money to Thailand, which can pay for my lifestyle here for a few years without replenishment.

 

So at present I remit no money to Thailand.

 

I am also on an LTR visa.

 

and I reside here for just under 300 days per taxation year.

 

 

20 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Thailand would be well advised to levy a flat tax per head of 3000.- USD or so. In return we'd get a proper tax residence/TIN - can be useful should our home countries/other institutions demand such.

 

Speak for yourself. I am not keen on paying $3000 USD in Thailand taxes - given I not need legally pay any to Thailand in the current circumstances.   I have invested in Thailand (condo , Thai government bonds) and I pay Thailand VAT.

 

20 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

That might not be in line with OECD regulations but then who cares? Thailand can safely ignore. 

 

(Joining the OECD with its agenda of creating worldwide bureaucracies which Thailand obviously aims to really has no advantages except perceived prestige. However, with Trump I don't think the OECD has a bright future anyway. He doesn't favour worldwide regulations and rightly so. The Chinese will never join as secrecy culturally always trumps transparency for them.)

 

A lot of the posts here on this forum about OECD CRS requirements are unfounded scare mongering.  Best to conduct one's own research and not believe the scaremongering posts.

.

 

[Yumthai]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

For example, both the Thailand and Canada faq on CRS implementation aspects for their countries, while noting in general that Financial Institutions accounts for individuals need to be reported to OECD per CRS, also note that government regulated accounts are not reported to CRS. 

 

For example such government regulated accounts in Canada include (but are not restricted to) Registered Retirement Savings Plans (RRSPs) and Registered Retirement Income Funds (RRIFs). Money in RRSPs and RRIFs are allowed to grow tax free by Canadian law.  However when one is taking money out of the RRIFs and RRSPs, one must then pay tax to Canada on such withdrawals, and one must file a Canadian Income tax return.

 

The Thailand FAQ re: CRS also notes Thailand government regulated funds for individuals are not reported to CRS.

Sure. My point is Financial Institutions may incur legal penalties for non-compliance with the CRS regulations, individuals not.

Individuals won't face legal penalties either, other than possibly account restrictions/closure, for not willing to file the CRS form presented by their banks. Therefore, individuals are not required to directly/strictly comply with CRS.

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Sure. My point is Financial Institutions may incur legal penalties for non-compliance with the CRS regulations, individuals not.

Individuals won't face legal penalties either, other than possibly account restrictions/closure, for not willing to file the CRS form presented by their banks. Therefore, individuals are not required to directly/strictly comply with CRS.

 

Well ... individuals face no fines from CRS.  That doesn't mean that national governments could then not fine individuals.

 

I believe CRS requirements will be flowed down to the national level , and fines structured accordingly.

 

Having typed that, don't believe the scaremongering hype of some about what CRS demands. Such hype is unfounded opinion, and when asked for official OECD references they don't post any.  Why? Because there is none - and its easier for them to post unfounded scare mongering.

[The Cyclist]

Mr Hart's latest video

 

 

 

Are the IRS Agents that he mentions, here at the invitation of the Thai Government ?
 

I have no doubts that there is agents of the OECD here in Thailand, advising and directing at the top levels.

 

But honestly folks, its all fake news, scaremongering, and people posting on forums, apparently pushing agendas, and nothing will be changing in Thailand.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Mr Hart's latest video

 

 

 

Are the IRS Agents that he mentions, here at the invitation of the Thai Government ?
 

I have no doubts that there is agents of the OECD here in Thailand, advising and directing at the top levels.

 

But honestly folks, its all fake news, scaremongering, and people posting on forums, apparently pushing agendas, and nothing will be changing in Thailand.

 

A Benjamin Hart opinion video on American taxation.   Hah !!

 

Aside from the American's - who  cares? Further, note one of the very first word from him is that this is an opinion video.

 

My view - is if not an American, don't waste one second of your time watching such - and second for the Americans, note the video source - and then search this forum to understand the view of many on this forum in regards to posts from that source.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, watchcat said:

Does pension  count as overseas income?

Only if accessable AND remitted (as per your DTA). 

Otherwise of no interest to Thai revenue.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

You are free to work your way through the list of CRS Countries, and try and identify a CRS Country, where you do not have to declare foreign income.

 

You are free to work YOUR way through the list of CRS countries and try and identify (what I presume to be) the tiny minority that DO require tax residents to declare all foreign REMITTANCES, assessable or not.

 

Take your time, I'll wait.

 

But you'd be wasting your time. 

 

As we all know the only CRS requirement on the part of individuals is to self-identify using standard CRS (or FATCA for property of the US government) forms when opening an account, giving the financial institution the means to report your name and tax ID and total balances to the treasury and tax departments of the country, so that they in turn can prepare their annual report notifying the countries that their tax residents also have some form of tax residency and of their names and ID numbers and total balances.

 

 

 

[watchcat]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Only if accessable AND remitted (as per your DTA). 

Otherwise of no interest to Thai revenue.

 

Well it's sent to me automatically to my bankaccount in Thailand and they have deducted the tax in my country already.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, watchcat said:

 

Well it's sent to me automatically to my bankaccount in Thailand and they have deducted the tax in my country already.

Irrelevant to how Thailand views it. Check your DTA.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

If they do remit foreign income into Singapore, some of it is taxable and some of it is not. I think you would have to declare it, to be on the safe side of what is taxable and what is not taxable.

 

Don't guess, don't just 'think' and call it a day.

The googles is indeed a thang.

 

Generally, you do not need to pay tax or report overseas income received in Singapore, including income deposited into a Singapore bank account. However, you would need to pay tax on overseas income for the scenarios below.

 

Overseas income that you pay tax on

1. You receive it through partnerships based in Singapore.

2. Your overseas employment is related to your Singapore employment (e.g. you need to travel abroad as part of your job).

 

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/individual-income-tax/basics-of-individual-income-tax/what-is-taxable-what-is-not/income-received-from-overseas

 

But, but, but...........CRS!!!!

 

But nothing!

 

Here's a nifty explanation of how CRS and FATCA affect you.  Hint:  you inform financial institutions of your tax residency.

 

"your financial institution will ask you for information on your jurisdiction of residence for tax purposes,".

 

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/international-tax/common-reporting-standard-(crs)/basic-information-for-account-holders-of-financial-institutions

 

Why, Singapore has even published a handy-dandy flyer explaining just what CRS is and what your and your financial institution's responsibilities are!

 

 

https://www.iras.gov.sg/media/docs/default-source/uploadedfiles/pdf/iras-crs-brochure-(1pg).pdf?sfvrsn=f060f938_4

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Bingo.

 

and another thought before I head off to the Hospital.

 

Did the New interpretation of the rules, the issuance of POR 161 / 162, not move Thailand to a defacto worldwide taxation policy, albiet, still with some exemptions?

 

No.

 

Worldwide taxation is being considered, with allegedly some preliminary legislation already having been drawn up.

 

Under a global taxation scheme, all income worldwide....regardless of remittance........would be taxable by Thailand.

 

Thailand still only taxes assessable income remitted into Thailand.

[watchcat]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Irrelevant to how Thailand views it. Check your DTA.

 

have a DTA or the country of my origin have a DTA with Thailand. What about money in the bank, I have the 800K for the wxtension and another account about the same amount .

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, watchcat said:

 

have a DTA or the country of my origin have a DTA with Thailand. What about money in the bank, I have the 800K for the wxtension and another account about the same amount .

DTAs relevant to Thailand are tax treaties between Thailand and other countries. The intention is usually to avoid double taxation but having a DTA does not mean you automatically aren't taxed in Thailand. That depends on the specific source of income and what the DTA says about that type of source. Some countries have no DTA with Thailand. 

Your existing 800k baht account in Thailand not relevant except for top ups later.

Money in a bank account abroad that you can prove existed before Jan 1 2023, is tax free in Thailand anytime in the future if remitted and isn't reported on Thai tax forms.

[NoDisplayName]

***UPDATE TO YEAR 2024 TAX FILING***

 

I filed online Jan 06 with no supporting documentation, assuming TRD had access to 2024 tax withholding data.  Maybe this was too soon?

 

Received a text message today to check the system for additional documentation request.

 

I must now provide (*):

 

1.  Certificate of withholding tax, Section 40(4)(a) Interest (bank deposits, bonds, etc.)

2.  Marriage certificate

 

(*)  ONLY if I want a refund.  The return was accepted and confirmed.  If I ignore the document request, I've still filed a valid return.  I just won't get withholding tax refunded.

 

Last year, filing late, this documentation was not requested.

 

I filed a joint return with my wife (no income), and requested refund of interest and dividend tax withholding.  I declared NO remittances, and no other income.

 

The Kenyan CRS Task Force has not arrived at my residence, and no jackbooted thugs are kicking in the door to drag me off for trial and deportation.

 

Wish me lucky!!!

[Robaht]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Money in a bank account abroad that you can prove existed before Jan 1 2023, is tax free in Thailand anytime in the future if remitted and isn't reported on Thai tax forms.

Do you actually mean Jan 1, 2024 ?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Robaht said:

Do you actually mean Jan 1, 2024 ?

Yes. Oops. Thanks for the correction.

Maybe better to say the balance on December 31, 2023.

[Robaht]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes. Oops. Thanks for the correction.

Maybe better to say the balance on December 31, 2023.

Okay, so in your opinion, if I were able to show that all 2024 funds transferred and all credit card purchases were paid by 2023 or earlier year funds, I wouldn't need to file? And if I were not able to do that for 2025 funds transferred and all credit card purchases, then in that case I would need to potentially file? Just wondering. 

 

A second question in case someone knows, I used to have a TIN when I owned a Thai business and had a WP. How can I check if it is still valid or if it was canceled with the WP (which I did do as required)? I will call my old accountant but just curious.

 

 

[WebGuy]

Didn't know that if being on LTR and getting income from abroad is not taxed. Is this really correct? 

 

If this is correct, I am closing my Thai company and switching to LTR.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, Robaht said:

Okay, so in your opinion, if I were able to show that all 2024 funds transferred and all credit card purchases were paid by 2023 or earlier year funds, I wouldn't need to file? And if I were not able to do that for 2025 funds transferred and all credit card purchases, then in that case I would need to potentially file? Just wondering. 

 

A second question in case someone knows, I used to have a TIN when I owned a Thai business and had a WP. How can I check if it is still valid or if it was canceled with the WP (which I did do as required)? I will call my old accountant but just curious.

 

 

Right.

 

No need to file with the pre 2024 savings remitted any time. 

 

Maybe need to file with later income or savings 

 

If

 

Remitted and

Accessable as per DTA and

Over the threshold 60k baht single filers