Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You asked for trouble. Your mistake. You knew that pension was not accessable and you also knew it's only about accessable money remitted in. Why did you ask for a TIN in the first place?

 

Because he has more than one Pension and only 1 of them is a Government Pension ?
 

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I now have to contact my other 2 pension providers to see if they can tell me how much tax I paid in the UK 01/01/2024 to 31/12/2024.

 

@billd766

 

Does your other pension providers not send out a Statement of future payments with your P60's ?
 

Mines gives the monthly payment and tax deducted in a box in the bottom right hand corner

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because he has more than one Pension and only 1 of them is a Government Pension ?
 

 

@billd766

 

Does your other pension providers not send out a Statement of future payments with your P60's ?
 

Mines gives the monthly payment and tax deducted in a box in the bottom right hand corner

In that case don't mention the non-accessable pension remittances at all.

Now he's locked into an incorrect ruling probably unless he hires an expensive lawyer to correct them. 

[hunkidori]

12 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I went to the TRD office in Kamphaeng Phet this morning to register.

 

I took

 

1   Passport plus a copy of all the pages

2   My pink Thai ID card plus a copy

3   My yellow house book plus a copy

4   A print out of money transferred to Thailand during 2024

5   A copy of my address confirmed by the British Embassy

6   A copy of our marriage certificate in English and in Thai

 

The lady only looked at the income and tells me that I owe 15,059 baht in Thai income tax.

 

She quoted me (and wrote it down that my allowances were

 

Age allowance                                                             190,000 thb     correct

50% deduction for pension income, up to 100k - 100,000 thb     correct

My allowance                                                                 60.000 thb     correct

Allowance for my wife                                                   60,000 thb     correct

Allowance for my son                                                    30,000 thb     correct

 

 

However she had no idea that my military pension in Thailand is tax exempt

 

Nor does she understand that it does NOT matter how much income I get in the UK, BUT on how much money I actually transfer into Thailand 

 

In addition, the first 150,000 Baht of income is zero rated for tax. These things combined mean that the first 500,000 Baht of income received in Thailand each year, will not be taxable.

 

She suggested that I contacted the pension providers to get how much income I earned in the Thai tax year 01/01/2024 to 31/12/2024.

 

I got through to HMRC this afternoon (in only 8 minutes) but the UK tax year runs from 06 April to 05 April the following year so they can only provide me with some information (by snail mail) for the 2023/2024 tax year.
 

 I now have to contact my other 2 pension providers to see if they can tell me how much tax I paid in the UK 01/01/2024 to 31/12/2024.

 

I think that I shall have to contact TRD Central and see what information they can give me.

 

 

Sounds to me like you're eager to pay Thai tax.

 

 

 

 

[redwood1]

15 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I went to the TRD office in Kamphaeng Phet this morning to register.

 

I took

 

1   Passport plus a copy of all the pages

2   My pink Thai ID card plus a copy

3   My yellow house book plus a copy

4   A print out of money transferred to Thailand during 2024

5   A copy of my address confirmed by the British Embassy

6   A copy of our marriage certificate in English and in Thai

 

The lady only looked at the income and tells me that I owe 15,059 baht in Thai income tax.

 

She quoted me (and wrote it down that my allowances were

 

Age allowance                                                             190,000 thb     correct

50% deduction for pension income, up to 100k - 100,000 thb     correct

My allowance                                                                 60.000 thb     correct

Allowance for my wife                                                   60,000 thb     correct

Allowance for my son                                                    30,000 thb     correct

 

 

However she had no idea that my military pension in Thailand is tax exempt

 

Nor does she understand that it does NOT matter how much income I get in the UK, BUT on how much money I actually transfer into Thailand 

 

In addition, the first 150,000 Baht of income is zero rated for tax. These things combined mean that the first 500,000 Baht of income received in Thailand each year, will not be taxable.

 

She suggested that I contacted the pension providers to get how much income I earned in the Thai tax year 01/01/2024 to 31/12/2024.

 

I got through to HMRC this afternoon (in only 8 minutes) but the UK tax year runs from 06 April to 05 April the following year so they can only provide me with some information (by snail mail) for the 2023/2024 tax year.
 

 I now have to contact my other 2 pension providers to see if they can tell me how much tax I paid in the UK 01/01/2024 to 31/12/2024.

 

I think that I shall have to contact TRD Central and see what information they can give me.

 

 

 

Some people are so desperate to pay Thai taxes that they are even willing to pay taxes on un-taxable income.....

 

And are beating the door down at the tax office to get a TIN....

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

55 minutes ago, Dah fahrang said:

Knowing what was coming, for the year 2024 we have lived off savings already brought into Thailand in preceding years. Due to

My spreadsheet declared the two large payments brought into Thailand (with dates) and, on my own initiative, unilaterally deducted Baht equivalent of UK Tax paid, about 39,000 Baht (proof above) showing new reduced total of inward remittances. Then deducted 100,000 Baht 'expenses' allowed against income. 

 

 

 

 

My understanding is that tax paid in a foreign country, if the foreign country has the right to tax the income, is not a deduction from the income remitted into Thailand, but instead a credit towards any taxes payable. 

 

In other words, the taxes paid in the UK would be a tax credit, not a deduction from income.

 

In this case, it seems the point is moot, but going forward it may be something to look at closely. I don't think current Thai income tax forms address this, however.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, hunkidori said:

Sounds to me like you're eager to pay Thai tax.

 

 

 

 

Over eager.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I am posting what the RD Officer, not only told me, but filled in a PND 91 in pencil for me to use as a template.

 

"Penciled-in" a "draft" incorrectly to get rid of you.

 

It won't be the first time a Thai official (tax, police, land office, bank, immigration) made up something, anything, to avoid saying "I don't know."

 

Come back when you've filed and been approved.  Until then it's, how you say,...........bupkis.

 

Good lucky.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In that case don't mention the non-accessable pension

 

Some of us are working on the theory that a pension is a pension and is Assessable income in Thailand as per Section 40, Part 1 of the Revenue code.

 

It is then not taxable in Thailand due to a DTA.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Some of us are working on the theory that a pension is a pension and is Assessable income in Thailand as per Section 40, Part 1 of the Revenue code.

 

It is then not taxable in Thailand due to a DTA.

 

At this point in time if you insist on telling them about exempt remitted income, there is nothing on the form about that. A tax company that I am not endorsing recently speaking at the Pattaya City Expat Club does show such income on returns they prepare but only on a custom made additional memo page that they add to the return. They acknowledge that most people UNDERSTANDABLY will not mention it at all. They are being proactively defensive but to me it sounds nuts if the forms don't support.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The P60's show the same information as @Dah fahrang tax printout from the HMRC website.

 

 

 

I checked his post - and he does not mention if his pension was a civil servant or military pension and whether that was or was not taxable in Thailand according to the Thai - UK DTA.  I understand UK civil servant/military pensions are only taxable in the UK, but other UK pensions ? Is that also the case? Perhaps non-civil servant UK pensions are taxable in Thailand?  I don't know that DTA.

 

This is important - so if you are going to compare to Dah fahrang you need to specify and explain that and confirm you have same type of pensions  (as I do believe Dah fahrang did NOT specify that) else the comparison is meaningless. 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

At this point in time if you insist on telling them about exempt remitted imcome, there is nothing on the forms about that. A tax company that I am not endorsing recently speaking at the Pattaya City Expat Club does show such income but only on a custom made additional memo page that they add to the return. They acknowledge that most people will not mention it at all. They are being proactively defense but to me it sounds nuts if the forms don't support.

 

At this point in time it is still a cluster.

 

I'll repeat what I said above " When I came here 15 / 16 years ago, I was told that as long as you are not working and earning, nobody gives a monkeys Tax wise.

 

I suspect that the " Experts " are in the same boat experience wise. How many have filled a tax on behalf of a retiree expat in the last 15 / 16 years.

 

Obviously people who were/ are employed within Thailand are a different kettle fish.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Dah fahrang said:

She knew nothing of the Thai/UK DTA, but accepted my 'evidence above' along with my figure for claiming credit for tax already paid in UK.

 

Could you explain how the foreign tax deduction was claimed on the tax form?

 

Was this just the tax official acknowledging that you paid some tax but not used in the calculations, or was it actually deducted at some point from your tax due?

[Jingthing]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

At this point in time it is still a cluster.

 

I'll repeat what I said above " When I came here 15 / 16 years ago, I was told that as long as you are not working and earning, nobody gives a monkeys Tax wise.

 

I suspect that the " Experts " are in the same boat experience wise. How many have filled a tax on behalf of a retiree expat in the last 15 / 16 years.

 

Obviously people who were/ are employed within Thailand are a different kettle fish.

Sure.

This is a reason I didn't remit one baht last year as I'm waiting for things to shake out.

I'm willing to pay an advisor that I trust (hard to find) but I think even they don't know enough yet to be worth paying. 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Dah fahrang said:

My spreadsheet declared the two large payments brought into Thailand (with dates) and, on my own initiative, unilaterally deducted Baht equivalent of UK Tax paid, about 39,000 Baht (proof above) showing new reduced total of inward remittances. Then deducted 100,000 Baht 'expenses' allowed against income.

 

This is not what would normally be considered a tax credit.

 

I would expect that if you paid 39K equivalent in UK tax, then you would deduct 39K from your Thai tax due. 

 

Your method, by subtracting the tax paid from the total remittance BEFORE calculating Thai tax, merely gives you a 5% effective tax credit for what you paid in the UK.  Had you owed tax, your tax credit as described would amount to a 2000 baht reduction on your tax bill.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Sure.

This is a reason I didn't remit one baht last year as I'm waiting for things to shake out.

I'm willing to pay an advisor that I trust (hard to find) but I think even they don't know enough yet to be worth paying. 

 

Yes, the reason I kicked my Private Pension back to the UK in December 2023 and only remitted my Government Pension in 2024.

 

I don't need to pay someone to tell me that Pension is only taxable in the UK 😀😀

 

I am still working on the theory that a Pension is a Pension and is classed as assessable income as per Section 40, Part 1 of the Revenue Code.

 

File and then invoke DTA, whether that be only taxable in UK, or subject to Tax Credit.

 

Otherwise every Brit with a Pension would just cry Government Pension.

 

Every Canadian would cry, my income is a pension

 

Every American would cry SS or Government Pension

 

And I dont think that is going to cut the mustard.

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Dah fahrang said:

• a print-out from Gov UK HMRC web-site of UK tax deducted from all UK pensions for Tax Year 2024-25;
• a print-out of (only) the title page of the Thailand - UK DTA made in 1981 (from Gov UK HMRC web-site).

 

Is your pension considered assessable income for Thai taxation?

[NoDisplayName]

50 minutes ago, billd766 said:

She quoted me (and wrote it down that my allowances were

 

Do you or wife pay life or health insurance premiums to a thai company?

[billd766]

35 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because he has more than one Pension and only 1 of them is a Government Pension ?
 

 

@billd766

 

Does your other pension providers not send out a Statement of future payments with your P60's ?
 

Mines gives the monthly payment and tax deducted in a box in the bottom right hand corner

Yes they do. However the Thai tax year is from 01 01.202x until 31/12/202x but the UK tax year runs from 06/04/202x until 05/04/202x and the P60 is sent out after the Thai Tax year ends.

[billd766]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In that case don't mention the non-accessable pension remittances at all.

Now he's locked into an incorrect ruling probably unless he hires an expensive lawyer to correct them. 

Not so, as I have not yet filed any tax forms, so I cannot have any ruling, correct or incorrect.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Yes they do. However the Thai tax year is from 01 01.202x until 31/12/202x but the UK tax year runs from 06/04/202x until 05/04/202x and the P60 is sent out after the Thai Tax year ends.

 

Sure, I get that

 

But you can calculate the tax paid in the UK  from the statement of future payments Jan - Dec, if you overlap the statements

[billd766]

39 minutes ago, hunkidori said:

Sounds to me like you're eager to pay Thai tax.

 

 

 

 

Not so at all. What I am trying to do is to see if I have to pay any tax or not.

[billd766]

38 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Over eager.

Try reading and comprehending.

[oldcpu]

58 minutes ago, billd766 said:

The lady only looked at the income and tells me that I owe 15,059 baht in Thai income tax.

....

However she had no idea that my military pension in Thailand is tax exempt

...

Nor does she understand that it does NOT matter how much income I get in the UK, BUT on how much money I actually transfer into Thailand

 

 

This is my concern - for those who file a 2024 Thai tax return ... if they put tax exempt income (from income excluded per the DTA) or put exempt remitted income (from pre-1-Jan-2024 savings) into their tax return , they could then be incorrectly taxed on that.

 

Why ? Because there is no place on the tax forms to list such as then tax exempt.

 

Then one is into appeals and it gets messy.

 

So caution is needed here - and I hope everyone pays close attention to this. 

[anchadian]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Not so at all. What I am trying to do is to see if I have to pay any tax or not.

Either way, if you indeed obtained a TIN, you're now on the RD's radar.

[billd766]

10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Do you or wife pay life or health insurance premiums to a thai company?

No.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, anchadian said:

Either way, if you indeed obtained a TIN, you're now on the RD's radar.

Exactly.

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

This is my concern - for those who file a 2024 Thai tax return ... if they put tax exempt income (from income excluded per the DTA) or put exempt remitted income (from pre-1-Jan-2024 savings) into their tax return , they could then be incorrectly taxed on that.

 

Why ? Because there is no place on the tax forms to list such as then tax exempt.

 

Then one is into appeals and it gets messy.

 

So caution is needed here - and I hope everyone pays close attention to this. 

Thank you, but at this point I have not filed any Thai tax return.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, anchadian said:

Either way, if you indeed obtained a TIN, you're now on the RD's radar.

 

I would suggest that anyone who has a Thai bank account is already on the RD's radar

[oldcpu]

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

At this point in time it is still a cluster.

 

I'll repeat what I said above " When I came here 15 / 16 years ago, I was told that as long as you are not working and earning, nobody gives a monkeys Tax wise.

 

Indeed.  I was here 25 years ago (as a digital nomad then) and people were saying that re:taxation.

 

But it was also at that time wrong in terms of tax law - rather it represented what was practically in place.

[oldcpu]

21 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Every Canadian would cry, my income is a pension

 

 

That is very easy for the Thai RD to find the truth if they wanted.  All they have to do is ask for certain Canadian documents as proof, and then watch anyone lying back peddle really really fast.