Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

No, you're completely incorrect.

 

A UK Government Pension, as with US Social security,  is non-assessable / exempt and is not required to be listed/declared at all in a Thai tax return. 

 

Of course

 

Every Brit only remits a Government Pension

 

Every American only remits SS

 

The RD will believe those lies every day of the week.

 

3 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

f it was, the TRD would have been requiring this for many years, and they never have

 

Because they were too lazy, couldn't understand it, it was too much work. What happened previously is not an indicator of what happens in the future.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

How would you claim a Tax Exemption from the TRD after reporting a Gov't pension on a tax return when there's no place on the tax return to claim an exemption for that income? Would you also report your pre-2024 remittances? If so, where would you claim an exemption for that on the tax return?

 

Probably in the same manner that would claim a tax credit.

 

By supplying supplementary paperwork. Showing what you are claiming is true.

[JohnnyBD]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Probably in the same manner that would claim a tax credit.

 

By supplying supplementary paperwork. Showing what you are claiming is true.

Just curious,

Why do you think people need to report a Gov't pension that's exempt or pre-2024 remittances or any other non-assessable income on their tax returns?

I'm just trying to understand where you are getting this from, that everyone needs to report the above mentioned monies on a tax return.

Is a tax firm telling you this, or is it just your opinion?

[anrcaccount]

17 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Of course

 

Every Brit only remits a Government Pension

 

Every American only remits SS

 

The RD will believe those lies every day of the week.

 

 

Because they were too lazy, couldn't understand it, it was too much work. What happened previously is not an indicator of what happens in the future.

 

Deflecting, irrelevant comments. 

 

Non assessable / exempt income remitted is not required to be listed on a Thai tax return. 

 

Even the predatory "expat" tax agencies agree with this, and that's saying something. 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Deflecting, irrelevant comments. 

 

There is nothing deflecting or irrelevant in this

 

Quote

1. Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/revenue-code-assessable-income-and-income-tax-sections-40-64/

 

It is there in black and white, I have even made it bold for you.

[anrcaccount]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

There is nothing deflecting or irrelevant in this

 

Quote

1. Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

Expand  

 

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/revenue-code-assessable-income-and-income-tax-sections-40-64/

 

It is there in black and white, I have even made it bold for you.

 

Non assessable / exempt income remitted is not required to be listed on a Thai tax return. 

 

This includes UK Government Pensions and US Social Security. 

 

You suggesting otherwise is plain wrong.  

 

 

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

This includes UK Government Pensions

 

Again

 

Quote

1. Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.

 

Can you point out in the Revenue Code, or indeed the UK - Thai DTA where it states Pensions are non assessable or are considered exempt income for Thai Tax Purposes.

 

6 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Non assessable / exempt income remitted is not required to be listed on a Thai tax return. 

 

Pensions are stated in the TRC as assessable income . It does not give further breakdown of Pensions that are assessable or non assessable.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

so again - that begs the question, ... is foreign remitted income, referenced in a DTA signed and agreed by Thailand, where DTA notes that Thailand has  no taxation rights on such income, is it still to be included in a Thai tax calculation?

No! That there's no place to include it should be your first clue.

[JimGant]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Can you point out in the Revenue Code, or indeed the UK - Thai DTA where it states Pensions are non assessable or are considered exempt income for Thai Tax Purposes.

Article 19 of the UK-Thai DTA:

Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local
authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature
rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable
only in that State.

 

Hopefully, you can equate "exempt" with "non assessable."

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Article 19 of the UK-Thai DTA:

Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local
authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature
rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable
only in that State.

 

Hopefully, you can equate "exempt" with "non assessable."

 

Where does that say a Thai Tax Resident of Thailand does not have to comply with Thailands Domestic Tax Policy ?
 

I know what it says, I also know what it does not say. And i have posted at least twice what Section 40 ( 1 ) says.

 

Pensions are assessable income, which may be

 

* Subject to Thai Tax

 

* Subject to Tax Credits

 

* Not subject to Thai tax as they are only taxable in UK as per an agreed International Agreement.

 

Eh no, Exempt / non assessable are not mentioned in the DTA.

[NoDisplayName]

31 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Article 19 of the UK-Thai DTA:

Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local
authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature
rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable
only in that State.

 

Hopefully, you can equate "exempt" with "non assessable."

 

Mayhaps this will help:

 

In general the DTA does not stipulate any specific item of income and tax rate. It provides whether the source or resident country is entitled to tax certain income. If the source country has taxing rights, the income will be subject to tax according to the domestic laws of that country.

....

C.   Elimination of double taxation

The focus of a DTA is the elimination of double taxation. Each DTA may prescribe different methods of elimination of double taxation of a person by the resident country:

(1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

(2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country....

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

DTA's can (as with US) specify certain income exempt from Thai tax.

 

Exempt = non-assessable = not included in PIT calculation = not entered on tax return

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

So I file Tax Return as required by Law and then claim a Tax Exemption by providing the evidence that it is a Government Pension, and is only taxable in the UK according to the UK - Thai DTA.
 

If I have a non Government pension, I also file a tax return, provide evidence of tax already paid in the UK, and will be issued with a ax credit that will be offset against any Thai Tax liability.

 

 

You have perked my curiosity here.

 

Please point out specific place in Thai 2024 tax return form where you:

1. claim a Tax Exemption by providing the evidence that it is a Government Pension, and is only taxable in the UK according to the UK - Thai DTA

2.  provide evidence of tax already paid in the UK, that you intend to use to offset  any Thai Tax liability.

 

I asked because I looked , and I spotted NO SUCH PLACE.

 

If there is such a place, it might be helpful to many on this forum.  And if there is no such place, then while you have good intentions, you are simply incorrect.

 

I can not help but think you are basing your thinking on tax experience from a country outside of Thailand, where it is a Global Taxation system, and not a remitted taxation system. 

 

In a remitted taxation system, the Revenue Department nominally only wants to know about foreign remitted income that it can tax. A global tax system wants to know about all of one's global income. 

 

 

[JimGant]

5 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

In a remitted taxation system, the Revenue Department nominally only wants to know about foreign remitted income that it can tax. A global tax system wants to know about all of one's global income. 

Actually, if we go to a global tax system, Thailand still won't want to know about income it cannot tax -- like my US govt pension and Social Security. Those figures need not ever be introduced into a Thai tax return -- at least for now, where they're not interested in non assessable income.

 

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I asked because I looked , and I spotted NO SUCH PLACE.

 

If there is such a place, it might be helpful to many on this forum.  And if there is no such place, then while you have good intentions, you are simply incorrect.

 

Incorrect -- and good intentions questionable.

[MangoKorat]

11 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

You have perked my curiosity here.

Very short on time and haven't read any of the posts that lead to this so I could be talking complete rubbish but I just want to point out that there is a difference between a UK Government Pension and a UK State Pension.

 

I read an article some months back that stated that under the UK/Thai DTA a UK Government Pension (paid to ex government and public employees) would not be assessable for tax in Thailand whilst a State Pension is.

 

Simply pointing out the difference between the two pensions which is often confused.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Really ?

 

 

Agreed with the above ?
 

TRC Section 40 Assessable income

 

 

I'm only dealing pensions here.

 

A Pension over 60k / 120k / 220k a year is assessable income according to Section 40 ( 1 ) of the Thai Revenue Code. And as a Thai Tax Resident I should file a tax return.

 

Agreed ?

 

So I file Tax Return as required by Law and then claim a Tax Exemption by providing the evidence that it is a Government Pension, and is only taxable in the UK according to the UK - Thai DTA.
 

If I have a non Government pension, I also file a tax return, provide evidence of tax already paid in the UK, and will be issued with a ax credit that will be offset against any Thai Tax liability.

 

The same process will apply to all the sources of income as listed here

 

https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/revenue-code-assessable-income-and-income-tax-sections-40-64/

There is no way to claim a tax exemption as you describe.

 

The process is to not declare income that is tax exempt under DTA to begin with.

 

A pension is normally assessable yes  but (assuming you mean a UK military or other government pension and not the State OAP) the terms of the DTA override this. 

 

And whole point will be irrelevant by next year anyhow if planned chsnge goes through.