Ukraine is not a Country

[tomazbodner]

10 hours ago, Yagoda said:

If you are going to take or oppose that position, you need to have some knowledge of the area and its history.

 

Here you go, learn something, the maps are excellent

 

https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/the-ghost-of-polands-past

This is what happens when you give internet access to conspiracy theorists who had trouble passing 4th year of elementary school.

 

Come on Yagoda, you can do better than that. Did you know Earth is flat, aliens run Area 51, and COVID was caused by 5G antennas?

[BangkokReady]

29 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

This is what happens when you give internet access to conspiracy theorists who had trouble passing 4th year of elementary school.

 

Come on Yagoda, you can do better than that. Did you know Earth is flat, aliens run Area 51, and COVID was caused by 5G antennas?

 

I suspect that, on this occasion, Yagoda is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

 

You see, Yagoda is very much pro-Israel and most strongly pro-Israel people use the justification that the Jews used to call Palestine home, but were removed from that territory thousands of years ago.

 

So, it stands to reason that Yagoda would come down on the "Ukraine is actually Russia but from a long time ago" (or whatever particular historical argument he is making).  If he supported the Ukraine, then he would have to support Palestine.  That, or he believes that by saying the Ukraine should not exist, he is providing support for the idea that Palestine should not exist.

 

Interesting argument.

[Harrisfan]

8 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

 

I suspect that, on this occasion, Yagoda is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

 

You see, Yagoda is very much pro-Israel and most strongly pro-Israel people use the justification that the Jews used to call Palestine home, but were removed from that territory thousands of years ago.

 

So, it stands to reason that Yagoda would come down on the "Ukraine is actually Russia but from a long time ago" (or whatever particular historical argument he is making).  If he supported the Ukraine, then he would have to support Palestine.  That, or he believes that by saying the Ukraine should not exist, he is providing support for the idea that Palestine should not exist.

 

Interesting argument.

Nothing alike.

[MicroB]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

 

I suspect that, on this occasion, Yagoda is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

 

You see, Yagoda is very much pro-Israel and most strongly pro-Israel people use the justification that the Jews used to call Palestine home, but were removed from that territory thousands of years ago.

 

So, it stands to reason that Yagoda would come down on the "Ukraine is actually Russia but from a long time ago" (or whatever particular historical argument he is making).  If he supported the Ukraine, then he would have to support Palestine.  That, or he believes that by saying the Ukraine should not exist, he is providing support for the idea that Palestine should not exist.

 

Interesting argument.

 

Where does he stand on Northern Ireland and Puerto Rico?

 

In Northern Ireland, the loyalist terrorists would fly Israeli flags on street corners. Republican terrorists would fly Palestinian  flags on  street corners. These are truely screwed up pledges of unity and common cause.

 

 

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

This is what happens when you give internet access to conspiracy theorists who had trouble passing 4th year of elementary school.

 

Come on Yagoda, you can do better than that. Did you know Earth is flat, aliens run Area 51, and COVID was caused by 5G antennas?

You didnt read it either. So I have done better than you.

[BangkokReady]

17 minutes ago, MicroB said:

Where does he stand on Northern Ireland and Puerto Rico?

 

Not sure.  It's just a suspicion.

 

I wonder if he thinks that the Celts should advance from the South and West of Britain and drive the Normans out of England and back to France?  It's only a few hundred years since they were displaced.

 

It's quite complicated, attempting to return all lands around the world to whomever possessed them at a specific (and possibly arbitrary) point in the past.

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, BangkokReady said:

 

I suspect that, on this occasion, Yagoda is suffering from cognitive dissonance.

 

You see, Yagoda is very much pro-Israel and most strongly pro-Israel people use the justification that the Jews used to call Palestine home, but were removed from that territory thousands of years ago.

 

So, it stands to reason that Yagoda would come down on the "Ukraine is actually Russia but from a long time ago" (or whatever particular historical argument he is making).  If he supported the Ukraine, then he would have to support Palestine.  That, or he believes that by saying the Ukraine should not exist, he is providing support for the idea that Palestine should not exist.

 

Interesting argument.

Since you pretend to analyze what I think, all I can say is you are wrong.

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, Harrisfan said:

Nothing alike.

Ya notice how they change the subject?

[MicroB]

10 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

 

Not sure.  It's just a suspicion.

 

I wonder if he thinks that the Celts should advance from the South and West of Britain and drive the Normans out of England and back to France?  It's only a few hundred years since they were displaced.

 

It's quite complicated, attempting to return all lands around the world to whomever possessed them at a specific (and possibly arbitrary) point in the past.

 

Slightly off. Harold was an Anglo Saxon. He was born in Wessex (West Saxon) but was basically Danish. Athelstan booted out the Cornish from Exeter 200 years before the Norman invasion.

 

The Normans (Norsemen) were themselves not of France.

 

Ulster politics can be pretty messed up, and much more complicated than what outsiders think, even British outsiders!

 

[MicroB]

17 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Ya notice how they change the subject?

 

Well the subject is whether Ukraine is a country or not. For some, if its not a country, then war is justified on the grounds that Ukraine should be considered an internal matter. But on the other hand, the 13 colonies were, at one time, never a country, and had to fight for their Nationhood in essentially a Second English Civil War, which resulted in a schism between the English peoples.

 

It's forgotten, but it took over 100 years for the British and Americans to be fully reconciled. Its like falling out with your kid brother. Wait, that's the Russian attitude towards Ukraine, calling them little Russians, but not in a nice way.

 

 

Its forgotten, for most of the 19th Century, we were not friendly nations, though most of that ire came from the west. Some of it became quite heated, with William Harvey, who lead the predictably named Patriots of America Party, calling for the complete extermination of the English.

 

Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom. But Irish, and some American politicins will still call it the 6 Counties, and refuse the accept the settled position. There are people in Northern Ireland who will refuse to consider themselves as Irish. Here it gets really complicated. All people of Northern Ireland will support the Irish Rugby side, because that rpredates partition. But there is no all Ireland  football side, and support for the Northern Irish football team.

 

Now in reference to the website you found. It reveals a complex history, no different to the complex history of all of Europe. You might as well say Germany isn't a real country, nor is Italy, Denmark, Norway and indeed Eire. Of course I should be calling Eire the Republic of Ireland, because Eire was a word used by those who didn't consider Ireland to be a country. Of course Ukraine is a real country. Its as much a real country as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and indeed the United States of America. There are nutters out there who believe these aren't legitimate countries.

 

What you are parroting is the line coming from Vladislav Surkov, the Grey Cardinal, who created Putin's policy. He considers the notion of being Ukrainian t be a mental illness. A distinct Ukrainian language emerged in the 14th Centry, 300 years before your country even existed. The Ukrainians then were the Cossack Slavs, who wanted rid of their Polish--Lithunanian masters. While they felt closer to the Muscovites, they wanted to become independant, and were nearly put on a pathway to becoming a western-leaning state with the failed Treaty of Hadiach. The Poles ceded the territory to the Tsars, and then started a Cossack insurgency against Moscow, which culminated in the Russians utterly destroying Zaporizhian Sich 100 years later (the semi-autonomous Cossack state), thus snuffing out Ukrainian yearning for independance. This is where it gets similar to England and Ireland following Cromwell. Cromwell worked to snuff out any sense of Irishness, in the same way the Csar did the same to the Cossacks. I think Ireland shows you can't eradicate a culture nor a sense of nationality. Ukrainian intelligentsia kept alive the Ukrainian language, in the same way that it was Irish elites in the late 19th Century who worked to revive what was thought to be a dead language (recent US moves to declare English the official language of America shows how important language is to a nation).

 

If you want to debate your belief that Ukraine is not a real country, as a way to justify your support of the Moscow communists, fine. But you cannot try and twist that debate to exclude genuine historic parallels. This is what the Bolsheviks do; try and shut down debate and come up with a false history. Since you seem to be a Bolshevik, I welcome your view as a communist in this debate. Communist China does the same; try and deny that Tibet is a country, and more recently, they try and delegitamize the Republic of China.

 

[Yagoda]

7 hours ago, MicroB said:

Now in reference to the website you found. It reveals a complex history, no different to the complex history of all of Europe. You might as well say Germany isn't a real country, nor is Italy, Denmark, Norway and indeed Eire. Of course I should be calling Eire the Republic of Ireland, because Eire was a word used by those who didn't consider Ireland to be a country. Of course Ukraine is a real country. Its as much a real country as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and indeed the United States of America. There are nutters out there who believe these aren't legitimate countries.

 

What you are parroting is the line coming from Vladislav Surkov, the Grey Cardinal, who created Putin's policy. He considers the notion of being Ukrainian t be a mental illness. A distinct Ukrainian language emerged in the 14th Centry, 300 years before your country even existed. The Ukrainians then were the Cossack Slavs, who wanted rid of their Polish--Lithunanian masters. While they felt closer to the Muscovites, they wanted to become independant, and were nearly put on a pathway to becoming a western-leaning state with the failed Treaty of Hadiach. The Poles ceded the territory to the Tsars, and then started a Cossack insurgency against Moscow, which culminated in the Russians utterly destroying Zaporizhian Sich 100 years later (the semi-autonomous Cossack state), thus snuffing out Ukrainian yearning for independance. This is where it gets similar to England and Ireland following Cromwell. Cromwell worked to snuff out any sense of Irishness, in the same way the Csar did the same to the Cossacks. I think Ireland shows you can't eradicate a culture nor a sense of nationality. Ukrainian intelligentsia kept alive the Ukrainian language, in the same way that it was Irish elites in the late 19th Century who worked to revive what was thought to be a dead language (recent US moves to declare English the official language of America shows how important language is to a nation).

Hooray, somebody wants to debate, even if its a Azov Brigade fan who peppers his analysis with his cute widdle flames. So here we go!

 

Now in reference to the website you found. Its not a website, its a research commentary.

 

It reveals a complex history, no different to the complex history of all of Europe. You might as well say Germany isn't a real country, nor is Italy, Denmark, Norway and indeed Eire.  That says nothing and only serves to deflect from the issue, which is Ukraine. Their historical circumstances led to the creation and maintenance of a nation, viz:

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. Ukraines did not. 

 

A distinct Ukrainian language emerged in the 14th Centry, 300 years before your country even existed. Now ladies and gentlemen, check out that smarmy comment? Tell us what the meaning of "300 years before your country existed" is in the context of this discussion? Tossing in your typical flames? Now as to the language, it is just a derivation of Old East Slavonic. It is not unique, nor does the fact that a dialect of a language exists lead to the conclusion that the people who speak that dialect are a "nation"

 

The Ukrainians then were the Cossack Slavs, who wanted rid of their Polish--Lithunanian masters. Cossack Slavs? You mean the ones who intermarried with Crimean Tatars, Jews, Scottsman, Poles, renegade Russians and other "free men". Tell us how historically the Cossacks are part of a Ukrainian nation? They were either subject to the Russians, or the Poles Furthermore, which Cossacks are you referring to? Zaporozhian? Ussuri?

 

who wanted rid of their Polish--Lithunanian masters. While they felt closer to the Muscovites, they wanted to become independant, and were nearly put on a pathway to becoming a western-leaning state with the failed Treaty of Hadiach. Failed treaties are no treaties. Keep in mind that the Cossacks, who were not at the time ethnic Ukrainians in full or used "Ukrainian" as their primary language were seeking to preserve their own interests against the Poles. By the way, how do you know what "they wanted"? Wikpedia?

 

Just as an aside I bet you think Khmelnytsky is a "Ukrainian hero" dont you. Tell us all about him then. 

 

The Poles ceded the territory to the Tsars, and then started a Cossack insurgency against Moscow, which culminated in the Russians utterly destroying Zaporizhian Sich 100 years later (the semi-autonomous Cossack state), thus snuffing out Ukrainian yearning for independance.  Wow. Ukrainian yearning for independence? Tell us where you made that up from? There was no Ukrainian nation to yearn for anyhting.

 

Im not going to get into your Cromwell silliness. All the Irish references lead me to conclude that you are carrying a bit or a hardone for the Brits. Its amazing how all you English fight among each other.

 

Nice try though, which is more than can be said for most of your ilk.

[cjinchiangrai]

On 3/8/2025 at 12:34 PM, bubblegum said:

Does your ignorance on everything drops out of your ears or nose?

Directly from the KGB.

[Gottfrid]

On 3/8/2025 at 12:38 PM, Harrisfan said:

Ukraine was part of Poland for several centuries, particularly during the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth period. After the Union of Lublin in 1569, which united the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ukrainian lands transitioned under Polish administration, becoming part of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland.46

During the 14th century, parts of western Ukraine, such as Galicia, were annexed by Poland, while other regions were under the rule of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. By the mid-15th century, the greater part of the Ukrainian territories was detached from Lithuania and annexed directly to Poland

You are very right that the world looked different than now regarding land and borders in the middle age. However, we have learned to discuss and are supposed to make more sensible discussions today and try to refrain from war. Ukraine, was together with 14 other countries a part of Soviet Union. Since then those countries have broken free and become their own units. Are you trying to state that Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Kazakhstan, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are no countries? Here we are talking breakouts in modern history, but maybe that passed you understanding.